AGREE TO DISAGREE DEBATES - APOLOGETICS & THEOLOGY

[Guest]

So far I've come across these debates that move in circles.
No it isn't, yes it is. No it isn't, yes it is etc etc..can anyone think of anymore..

1. Age of accountability
2. Eternity in Hell
3. Hades vs. Hell vs. Gehenna
4. Heaven and Hell Testimonies
5. The Holy Trinity/Persons/Theology
6. Luke 16:19-31 - Heaven and Hell
7. Miracles performed
8. OSAS / Once saved always saved
9. Soul sleep vs. Abraham's bosom/hell
10. Vasectomy & Tubectomy
11. Water baptism vs. Holy Spirit baptism

This is not a debate thread, rather it is a thread to understand the mysteries of the Bible.
It is also a thread to be civil and kind to one another. Blessings.

 

[Slider]

Seasonally, I suppose you can throw Christmas and Easter in....

 

[clark thompson]

It is a shame how people fight within the faith.

 

[Danus]

Another is salvation being a means to an end vs an awareness in a moment in time.

 

[beardedad]

Salvation by faith or by works

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So far I've come across these debates that move in circles.
No it isn't, yes it is. No it isn't, yes it is etc etc..can anyone think of anymore..

1. Age of accountability
2. Eternity in Hell
3. Hades vs. Hell vs. Gehenna
4. Heaven and Hell Testimonies
5. The Holy Trinity/Persons/Theology
6. Luke 16:19-31 - Heaven and Hell
7. Miracles performed
8. OSAS / Once saved always saved
9. Soul sleep vs. Abraham's bosom/hell
10. Water baptism vs. Holy Spirit baptism

This is not a debate thread, rather it is a thread to understand the mysteries of the Bible.
It is also a thread to be civil and kind to one another. Blessings.

Hi urk,

I'm not sure if you're new to internet forums, especially ones in regards to controversial topics (such as every single one of those), but this is normative across all the internet. Actually, throughout all Church History, there have been debates and struggles.. even wars over doctrine. As the wise King Solomon once said, "there is nothing new under the sun." People of all beliefs and understandings of the truth will squabble until Jesus who is the truth arrives to settle it once and for all.

I agree that as Christians we should model civility and kindness especially towards each other, however this forum is more of a debating structure where one poster will lay out the theological subject and then it is discussed and debated. The Bible study section would be the proper place to go to understand the "mysteries of the Bible" without the debating, though I find it helpful to have my views scrutinized and can then test them against other points of view.

 

[WIP]

In my view debating scripture is an important part of learning and growing in one's faith. The problem comes when those involved begin to take things personal and get defensive; not defensive in their faith but defensive from a personal perspective. When this happens, as a moderator looking in, I struggle with the task of determining whether to allow the exchange or not. I read what is said and sense an attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong, period!" Of course, not everyone is right so who is it? If we really approached the discussion with an attitude of, "Where is God leading me and what does he want me to take from this?" I think we would grow much more rapidly but our human pride gets in the way and we get defensive and close our minds.

 

[jeff77]

Doesn't God want us to be black and white on issues that are so important? Not just black and white but unified as well?

 

[Obadiah]

Doesn't God want us to be black and white on issues that are so important? Not just black and white but unified as well?

Apparently not, since His word seems to have several gray areas that we have a history of not understanding clearly, as well as a lot of areas where we are expected to make our own judgments based on our interpretation of circumstances (the last half of 1 Cor 10 for example).

 

[WIP]

Here's a little more about how I understand it. When our daughters would come to me with questions about their schoolwork I could have easily just given them the answers they sought but I didn't. Why? Because, as a college professor once told me, "It's not so much about learning facts as it is about learning how to learn." When my daughters asked me those questions, instead of just giving them the answers I responded with questions of my own that guided them toward finding the answers they sought on their own. In my own experience I learn very little if I'm given the answer but when I do the research and find the answers for myself it sticks with me a lot longer.

I think this is why God didn't just give us a book spelled out with a list of do's and don'ts. There is a lot of information in those scriptures that for those who really want to learn about God and his plan for us will lead us in the path toward finding the answers ourselves so that when we do, we will retain what we've learned.

 

[SeekHisFace]

I believe that if we all just ask the Lord to lead us into His truth by His Spirit, then we would have a better understanding of what is.
Also, with the many versions of Bibles out there...how could we all be on the same page?
Or maybe it could be that some just don't read enough or are too busy to read.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I believe that if we all just ask the Lord to lead us into His truth by His Spirit, then we would have a better understanding of what is.
Also, with the many versions of Bibles out there...how could we all be on the same page?
Or maybe it could be that some just don't read enough or are too busy to read.

Well people on different aisles of the theological debates both pray for understanding and to be lead by the Spirit, yet they come to different truths. Ultimately, the Bible is not a Gnostic document, filled with hidden spiritual truths that only those of a certain spirit can understand.

I think that WIP's statement below is a really good representation of how God may feel on the subject, he doesn't like division no doubt, but he as a Father would want us to learn and dig.. not just give us the answers though some kind of spiritual zapping. We of course should do this with grace and love toward our brothers who might often disagree with us, but no doubt not avoid that which may divide us. For truth is too important to kill in the streets for the sake of peace.

Here's a little more about how I understand it. When our daughters would come to me with questions about their schoolwork I could have easily just given them the answers they sought but I didn't. Why? Because, as a college professor once told me, "It's not so much about learning facts as it is about learning how to learn." When my daughters asked me those questions, instead of just giving them the answers I responded with questions of my own that guided them toward finding the answers they sought on their own. In my own experience I learn very little if I'm given the answer but when I do the research and find the answers for myself it sticks with me a lot longer.

I think this is why God didn't just give us a book spelled out with a list of do's and don'ts. There is a lot of information in those scriptures that for those who really want to learn about God and his plan for us will lead us in the path toward finding the answers ourselves so that when we do, we will retain what we've learned.

 

[SeekHisFace]

I believe that if we all just ask the Lord to lead us into His truth by His Spirit, then we would have a better understanding of what is.
Also, with the many versions of Bibles out there...how could we all be on the same page?
Or maybe it could be that some just don't read enough or are too busy to read.

Well people on different aisles of the theological debates both pray for understanding and to be lead by the Spirit, yet they come to different truths. Ultimately, the Bible is not a Gnostic document, filled with hidden spiritual truths that only those of a certain spirit can understand.

I think that WIP's statement below is a really good representation of how God may feel on the subject, he doesn't like division no doubt, but he as a Father would want us to learn and dig.. not just give us the answers though some kind of spiritual zapping. We of course should do this with grace and love toward our brothers who might often disagree with us, but no doubt not avoid that which may divide us. For truth is too important to kill in the streets for the sake of peace.

Here's a little more about how I understand it. When our daughters would come to me with questions about their schoolwork I could have easily just given them the answers they sought but I didn't. Why? Because, as a college professor once told me, "It's not so much about learning facts as it is about learning how to learn." When my daughters asked me those questions, instead of just giving them the answers I responded with questions of my own that guided them toward finding the answers they sought on their own. In my own experience I learn very little if I'm given the answer but when I do the research and find the answers for myself it sticks with me a lot longer.

I think this is why God didn't just give us a book spelled out with a list of do's and don'ts. There is a lot of information in those scriptures that for those who really want to learn about God and his plan for us will lead us in the path toward finding the answers ourselves so that when we do, we will retain what we've learned.

Yes, thank you.

 

[chessman]

I find it helpful to have my views scrutinized and can then test them against other points of view

Me too. That's why I even joined this forum (CF.net). I was on a mission to learn and grow from other Christians concerning what the Bible teaches on various subjects. I had no idea of the fire-storm, banter and at times just plain hatefulness that seems way to common here. And I agree:

So far I've come across these debates that move in circles. No it isn't, yes it is. No it isn't, yes it is etc etc..can anyone think of anymore..

I’d add that way too often I’ve seen “your momma wears Army boats†posts as well.

I wasn’t expecting a perfect atmosphere for educational debate from CF.net, or anything, but I was expecting more than the norm here in the A&T section. I’ve never participated in any online forums till now (Feb 2013) so I have nothing to base my assumptions on. I don’t even facebookJ

I do see evidence that the staff/moderators give it their all and try hard with various ToS, the “posting and answering posts in A&T sticky, 1on1 debates, Separate sections (corners) for different interest/opinions, etc.) and the frequent realtime reminders (personal and public), etc.

I’m at a point of “fight or flightâ€. The question I’d have to the open A&T, CF.net community is: Can we make improvements within CF.net for better debates?

One suggestion I had was better “debate rulesâ€. By that I mean more than just, “Ya’ll be nice nowâ€.

Just throwing out some other ideas (good or bad):
1. A clear/better listing and definition for “Debate Rulesâ€. Something more than just “be respectful†and “treat each other as you’d want to be treatedâ€. If I’m wrong on a subject, for example, I want to be told that I’m wrong. However, I have two teenagers in my own home that I love dearly, that disagree with that type of “treatmentâ€J I’ve seen their type of attitude here in the A&T section.
2. Or a “Strictly logical Debate†Section within the A&T section. A “sticky†at the top that has a much more detailed and strictly enforced set of debate rules just for debating/posting within this one little section of CF.net (if that’s not appropriate or too detailed for the entire forum community). I get the logic behind, “details are not important for the Jokes or current events sectionsâ€. But the seem appropriate for a “Debate Sectionâ€.
3. Everyone allowed to participate would agree to the detailed rules, prior to participating. No open community posting allowed.
4. No off-topic or against these “detailed rules†or of philosophical rules of logic posting allowed, so to speak.
5. We could even agree to self edit/police it, when someone has crossed the line(s), which will surely happen. Not with me, of course, but with othersJ
6. Theoretically, by the end of a properly edited debate, if everyone has posted only their Scriptural evidence either for or against the topic (with explanation of it where necessary), and EVERYTHING not Scripturally toward the topic has been removed (edited) or better yet, never posted to begin with, you’d have the answer to the question/topic. Just think of the possibilities! As it stands now, this does not seem possible here without some fundamental changes.

I started a thread in Suggestions to CF.net Staff with the hopes of drawing some interest and improving “things†for actually performing useful debates. Not much response/interest/support so far.

Maybe other’s could comment there, here or just wherever is appropriate. Or we could just drop the idea of hard improvements and

believe that if we all just ask the Lord to lead us into His truth by His Spirit, then we would have a better understanding of what is.

which seems to be the case, unless CF.NET does make some changes.

 

[Carolyn]

Sorry, Urk, I disagree with your list. The statement of faith of this forum upholds the Holy Trinity, salvation by faith alone, and the existance of litteral heaven and hell. The first two are absolutely necessary for a person's salvation and should never be compromised on in any way. All others are pretty much non essentials that we can agree to disagree on. But if we love the other person we have to be concerned that they are worshipping the Christian God and are not relying on self effort to get them into heaven.
A basic acceptance of these two beliefs are also essential to rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Their acceptance opens the eyes of the elect to understand the rest of Scripture and releases them from bondage.

The rest of your list, as I said, are pretty much agree to disagree issues. They are fun to discuss good naturedly, but we can easily leave them rest with the certain hope that we will meet each other in heaven and have a good laugh over our petty disagreements.

 

[Obadiah]

I’ve never participated in any online forums till now (Feb 2013) so I have nothing to base my assumptions on. I don’t even facebookJ

Been on Facebook for years now and sadly find it a friendlier place than the Christian sites I've been on, even though they have almost no rules. This forum has more rules and more enforcement of the rules than any other forum I've ever been on. Sadly, it seems that is the case here because it's needed among Christians. Christians seem to have a very high propensity in comparison to the rest of the world to form their own opinions then try to enforce those opinions on everyone else by whatever means it takes. I don't think more rules will change that. It's a change of heart that's needed instead.

 

[SeekHisFace]

Doulos Iesou

Concerning what you say...'that only those of a certain spirit can understand',
There is only one Spirit--the Father's Spirit. There is only one gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

If many are getting "different truths", then something is wrong.
Now I only speak concerning the "Bible". Are they all "of Christ". The gospel of Jesus cannot be of "different truths".

Just something for us all to think about.
Blessings, truth and light to us all...

 

[WIP]

I’ve never participated in any online forums till now (Feb 2013) so I have nothing to base my assumptions on. I don’t even facebookJ

Been on Facebook for years now and sadly find it a friendlier place than the Christian sites I've been on, even though they have almost no rules. This forum has more rules and more enforcement of the rules than any other forum I've ever been on. Sadly, it seems that is the case here because it's needed among Christians. Christians seem to have a very high propensity in comparison to the rest of the world to form their own opinions then try to enforce those opinions on everyone else by whatever means it takes. I don't think more rules will change that. It's a change of heart that's needed instead.

Would it also be fair to point out that there is no gray area when it comes to God? On sites social networking sites such as Facebook, there is a tremendous amount of room for gray areas and what's the catch word of the day?...tolerance. God doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for tolerance. There is good and evil, right and wrong, truth or lies, God's way or our way.

 

[Guest]

Agree to disagree on an, agree to disagree discussion thread. :toofunny

 

[dadof10]

So far I've come across these debates that move in circles.
No it isn't, yes it is. No it isn't, yes it is etc etc..can anyone think of anymore..

1. Age of accountability
2. Eternity in Hell
3. Hades vs. Hell vs. Gehenna
4. Heaven and Hell Testimonies
5. The Holy Trinity/Persons/Theology
6. Luke 16:19-31 - Heaven and Hell
7. Miracles performed
8. OSAS / Once saved always saved
9. Soul sleep vs. Abraham's bosom/hell
10. Vasectomy & Tubectomy
11. Water baptism vs. Holy Spirit baptism

This is not a debate thread, rather it is a thread to understand the mysteries of the Bible.
It is also a thread to be civil and kind to one another. Blessings.

The reason we all can't agree is because we are reading the Bible and subjectively interpreting the words. Everyone here, and I mean EVERYONE, can post verses that they THINK bolster their case and debunk the opposite view, no matter how ludicrous their case is. What is needed is submission to proper authority.

In the majority of your examples (2-9), the differences can't possibly be reconciled by an appeal to Scripture alone. The others aren't mentioned in Scripture, that I'm aware of (1 and 10. 11 is a straw man). This method can only lead to division and "agree to disagree" on almost every topic.