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Would it also be fair to point out that there is no gray area when it comes to God? On sites social networking sites such as Facebook, there is a tremendous amount of room for gray areas and what's the catch word of the day?...tolerance. God doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for tolerance. There is good and evil, right and wrong, truth or lies, God's way or our way.
I think in some ways that's true and in others it's not. (No grey areas when it comes to God.) Actually maybe what I'm trying to say is that there are certain things about God that are black and white and the language of scripture doesn't leave much room for any rational debate. But then there are other areas of scripture that aren't so clear and the language leaves room for different ideas on what it really means. Some of those areas are pretty grey, at least in my opinion.

By grey areas, I mean even if I have an opinion on them and think I am right, I also realize there are respectable and well educated people who see it differently and could also be the ones who are right instead of me so I should be willing to take correction from them if in fact they prove to be right. I'm not talking about "tolerance" just for the sake of tolerance itself as the secular world likes to do these days. I'm talking about just not having a closed mind and assuming my own interpretation is the only one that could possibly be right and anyone else who sees it differently has to be wrong. I'm also not talking about trying to force a church to change their stand on any of these issues if I don't personally agree with them. On many of them, I could simply "agree to disagree" or possibly find another church if the area is one that is very important to me and affects my relationship with a particular congregation.

As an example of what things I refer to as "grey areas", this could include moderate drinking of alcohol condemned or not, can a divorced person be a deacon or other type of spiritual leader or not, can a woman be a pastor (or elder or deaconess), can men have long hair, is modern music ok, etc? (Sort of like a lot of the questions Classic posts threads asking for opinions on. :) ) The whole list would be a long one for sure, but these are just some examples of things in scripture that I don't see as very black and white when you actually listen with respect and an open mind to arguments on both sides before forming an opinion. There is a difference between showing open minded respect (to a rational opinion) and being blindly tolerant of any idea anyone has just because that's the popular thing to do today.

Also, I think it's probably not really that God intended to confuse us in these areas. I think it's more our human condition that prevents us from understanding clearly. Sort of that seeing in the glass darkly kind of thing. I'm always asking God to forgive me if the way I see these kind of things turns out to be in error.
 
Also, I think it's probably not really that God intended to confuse us in these areas. I think it's more our human condition that prevents us from understanding clearly.
:thumbsup
 
By grey areas, I mean even if I have an opinion on them and think I am right, I also realize there are respectable and well educated people who see it differently and could also be the ones who are right instead of me so I should be willing to take correction from them if in fact they prove to be right. I'm not talking about "tolerance" just for the sake of tolerance itself as the secular world likes to do these days. I'm talking about just not having a closed mind and assuming my own interpretation is the only one that could possibly be right and anyone else who sees it differently has to be wrong. I'm also not talking about trying to force a church to change their stand on any of these issues if I don't personally agree with them. On many of them, I could simply "agree to disagree" or possibly find another church if the area is one that is very important to me and affects my relationship with a particular congregation.

As an example of what things I refer to as "grey areas", this could include moderate drinking of alcohol condemned or not, can a divorced person be a deacon or other type of spiritual leader or not, can a woman be a pastor (or elder or deaconess), can men have long hair, is modern music ok, etc? (Sort of like a lot of the questions Classic posts threads asking for opinions on. :) ) The whole list would be a long one for sure, but these are just some examples of things in scripture that I don't see as very black and white when you actually listen with respect and an open mind to arguments on both sides before forming an opinion. There is a difference between showing open minded respect (to a rational opinion) and being blindly tolerant of any idea anyone has just because that's the popular thing to do today.

What about the things mentioned in the OP? The existence of Hell...OSAS...? These are theological points where "respectable and well educated people" vehemently disagree all the time, and each side cites Scripture as their ultimate guide. Are these issues "black and white? Which side is right and why?
 
What about the things mentioned in the OP? The existence of Hell...OSAS...? These are theological points where "respectable and well educated people" vehemently disagree all the time, and each side cites Scripture as their ultimate guide. Are these issues "black and white? Which side is right and why?

I'm not sure what you are asking me here. I mean it's pretty obvious that the issues you mentioned are areas where there is a lot of debate, yet you ask me if they are "black and white" and "which side is right"? If your just trying to get me to take sides on these issues so you can argue with me if I happen to take a side different than yours, I'm not interested in doing that in this thread. I don't think that's what Urk had in mind, afterall , he did say:
This is not a debate thread
 
If anyone would like to debate, feel free to make new thread. This is more of a thread to share our feelings, and to grow in the spirit. I just think it's better to post circle arguments in here, that way we can learn self-control when debating and catch our flaws. I'm already learning to do that..
 
It is a shame how people fight within the faith.
Why don't you want people to discover truth? It's out there, that's all most people try to do. They don't debate simply for debating, lol. They debate to find the truth. That's why I debate anyway.

Regarding the OP, there are so many conflicting things in Christian circles because all of those ideas you listed above are actually mentioned in the bible. So each side has verses to back up their particular views. Each side has context to back up their particular views. Each side has to reinterpret (or unnaturally read) conflicting scripture to make it fit their views. This is why I am no longer a Christian (see recent post in this thread). The bible doesn't appear to be incredibly inerrant. It seems more logical that it was mish-mashed together by men. That's why there are so many contradicting views in the bible.
 
This thread is basically about getting to the end of a debate and saying, Yes/No, debates that are dead ends. It's good to debate, but we should know when to stop. If you feel you've come across debates like this, post them here.

:silly
 
What about the things mentioned in the OP? The existence of Hell...OSAS...? These are theological points where "respectable and well educated people" vehemently disagree all the time, and each side cites Scripture as their ultimate guide. Are these issues "black and white? Which side is right and why?

I'm not sure what you are asking me here. I mean it's pretty obvious that the issues you mentioned are areas where there is a lot of debate, yet you ask me if they are "black and white" and "which side is right"? If your just trying to get me to take sides on these issues so you can argue with me if I happen to take a side different than yours, I'm not interested in doing that in this thread. I don't think that's what Urk had in mind, afterall , he did say:
This is not a debate thread

You mentioned "gray areas" where people disagree. You mention "as an example of what things I refer to as "grey areas", this could include moderate drinking of alcohol condemned or not, can a divorced person be a deacon or other type of spiritual leader or not, can a woman be a pastor (or elder or deaconess), can men have long hair, is modern music ok, etc?"

My point is, non-essentials of the faith, like the things mentioned above, are not the only things that are "gray areas". OSAS, baptism, the existence and permanence of Hell..., these are the things that divide Christians, are REAL doctrinal points and ARE "GRAY AREAS" within Christianity. In fact, there are comparatively very few "black and white" areas, most are gray due to subjective interpretation of Scripture. It's not just hair length and music. I think you are trying to minimize the divisions and the reasons for them.

If you would like to continue this discussion, feel free to start another thread and I'll respond there. I guess Urk doesn't want any debate here? OK...
 
It is a shame how people fight within the faith.
Why don't you want people to discover truth? It's out there, that's all most people try to do. They don't debate simply for debating, lol. They debate to find the truth. That's why I debate anyway.

Regarding the OP, there are so many conflicting things in Christian circles because all of those ideas you listed above are actually mentioned in the bible. So each side has verses to back up their particular views. Each side has context to back up their particular views. Each side has to reinterpret (or unnaturally read) conflicting scripture to make it fit their views. This is why I am no longer a Christian (see recent post in this thread). The bible doesn't appear to be incredibly inerrant. It seems more logical that it was mish-mashed together by men. That's why there are so many contradicting views in the bible.

Not all churches, or Christian communities, teach that Scripture is sufficient for all doctrinal Truth. It was never written to be a catechism. Jesus founded a Church and promised to guide Her to "all Truth". The CHURCH is who He sent the Holy Spirit upon, and guides even now. Find this Church and submit to HER authority as opposed to subjective interpretation.

I agree with you, EVERYONE uses Scripture to bolster their ideas. This is indicative of why sola-scriptura does not work in practice.
 
If you would like to continue this discussion, feel free to start another thread and I'll respond there. I guess Urk doesn't want any debate here? OK...

Now we're learning. I'm hoping we can at least have one thread that is a non-debate thread in apologetics. Rather, this thread is for sharing our feelings, and understanding our flaws.
 
This thread is basically about getting to the end of a debate and saying, Yes/No, debates that are dead ends. It's good to debate, but we should know when to stop. If you feel you've come across debates like this, post them here.


I'm not sure a debate closes publicly as yes or no on a particular issue, or that a debate necessarily should. Often though, people walk away from a debate still clinging to their "aspersions" toward their own opposition, and that is where growth tends to stop.

A lot of it has to do with how a debate starts. It's either honest or deceptive.

Often someone will post a thread pretending to ask an honest question of their opposition, when actually their looking for an unsuspecting victim. Someone who might be trying to answer them honestly from the perspective they claim to seek. The desire of the OP in such a case is to hope the responder is unprepared for the verbal fight that lay ahead. These are what you might call dishonest ambushes. ;)

Another popular start of a thread is the false dichotomy argument. We see this all the time, where someone will make a statement or ask a question that does not have a full scope, only leaving limited options that of themselves are not true, or are missing. For example; "Can you be gay and be a Christian? " This seems like a good question, and in many ways it is, but it sets the answer up to be a false dichotomy , because the answer depends on a lot of factors that need to be explained or answered. There is not enough information in the question to warrant a yes or no answer, and someone could answer yes or no with plenty of reasonable defense.

The false dilemma, or dichotomy can be constructed honestly (as it often is) or dishonestly. It can be in the form of a statement or a question.

What I suggest people do when they know they are in debate territory, is decide what side they are on in terms of offense or defense. In verbal, physical present debates, where two people are debating and there is an audience, the task of debating is more challenging, because your trying to make your argument weigh more than your opponent. Your audience is the judge of this, and they are fickle. Who knows what sways them? It could be the better looking of the two, or it could be the logic, or passion of the argument. So you have to use all your means to get the point across and identify with the audience. This is true in court, in politics, in business meetings, and sadly also in religion. (Notice I said religion).

One thing for sure, everyone has an opinion, or thought about something. How many times have you heard someone say they don't care for someone else because that person is "Opinionated" :grumpy....next time you hear someone say that ask them; "Is that your opinion?":confused....then you will also make their list. :lol

Debate, however uncomfortable it is, is important. Know what it is you think you know and realize others either don't know what you know, or know something in opposition to what you know. You must know what they know the way they know it if you plan to succeed in a debate, and the only way to know that is to engage them. However, how you engage an argument, and the tools you use, are vital to the success of an argument. Many people may have a winning, or correct argument but loose a debate because they don't have the techniques to argue the opposition.

In Christianity; Never "AGREE" to disagree. That's just a tie. That's just being defeated. That's just giving up. Let your final words be the final blow and walk away. Leave your opponent wounded in the ring or in his corner nursing his wounds; trying to figure out what happened, or realizing they where not prepared for what they got. This place; this forum, should be a training ground. The real ring is in the world. As for the people who don't agree with you? Matthew 10:14 (NIV) 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

We can argue the Gospel, and we may all have a variety of opinions, but it does not mean much in terms of swaying anyone's position, because all we are doing in the end is finding out who agrees with us in the first place, and making ourselves known to others. That's very important, because right now their are people in the world who agree with you about God, they just don't know it. They need us to make ourselves known to them so that they may know us. Matthew 7:16 (NIV) 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

True, people align themselves with others like them. No one tries to turn a thorn-bush into a fig tree, or water it in hopes it will turn into a fig tree, or plant it among other fig trees, but a fig tree in the midst of thorn-bushes needs other fig trees. It's worth watering.

Sometimes the staff looks for ways to help control debates here on the A&T. We should do this so that debates are fair, no hitting below the belt kind of stuff. However, it's not done to just kill off an opposing or unpopular view that might have some merit, or worth.

Jesus, it seems, never called anyone names or developed a false argument about anyone. He just said it like it was, and if you didn't like it, so be it, but he left His opponents puzzled. The devil himself gave up on Him, but instead used others to fight Him, and he still lost. Jesus spoke the truth, some recognized it and some did not. We should do the same. Speak the truth in Love and Mercy. Do not ever stop and do not agree to disagree, but rather do not think your opponent has won anything if you have spoken the truth in Love and Mercy.

These are to me, the most chilling words of God found in the bible. Deuteronomy 32:35 (NIV) 35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay.
In due time their foot will slip;
their day of disaster is near
and their doom rushes upon them.â€.............In due time.
 
so, well I should harp and harp on eschatology?i have but I am tired of doing it. sometimes with some its best to just walk away and agree to disagree.remember some wont listen and aren't ready and we will waste our time beating that horse. sorry. that can apply to creationism-evolutionism arguments or politics.
 
[MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] wow i didn't even think of those, very good. i myself had debates with atheists about young earth creationism that gone nowhere.
 
Perhaps it is more necessary to have genuine love for the person who disagrees with us. WHen we do that we are not as concerned about being right or convincing them they are wrong. WE are more gentle with them and less impatient.
 
[MENTION=90443]Carolyn[/MENTION] you're right. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
 
Ecclesiastes 12:13 This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.

IMHO most of the confusion that I have seen in my 35 years of walking with the Lord and sharing with his children begins with the lack of having a good understanding of the Torah. How many half bibles circulate in this world, meaning New Testament only. Most followers of Christ do not learn Torah. If one would study Torah, then many of the debates the OP posted would be easily resolved. A good study of Torah and then the wisdom writings and Prophets would be all that is needed to put the New Testament in it's proper place of understanding.

Why so many differences within the Fold of Christ, because there is no set standard of Biblical study in the Church. Every denomination is lead by a person or person's that have their own understanding of scripture.

@Carolyn you're right. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of
the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.

And this is an excellent point. God's moral code is in place to correct our faulty behavior. When we do those things which are pleasing to God, such as the attributes mentioned, there is no need for correction from God's Law.
 
Ecclesiastes 12:13 This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.

IMHO most of the confusion that I have seen in my 35 years of walking with the Lord and sharing with his children begins with the lack of having a good understanding of the Torah. How many half bibles circulate in this world, meaning New Testament only. Most followers of Christ do not learn Torah. If one would study Torah, then many of the debates the OP posted would be easily resolved. A good study of Torah and then the wisdom writings and Prophets would be all that is needed to put the New Testament in it's proper place of understanding.

Why so many differences within the Fold of Christ, because there is no set standard of Biblical study in the Church. Every denomination is lead by a person or person's that have their own understanding of scripture.

@Carolyn you're right. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of
the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.

And this is an excellent point. God's moral code is in place to correct our faulty behavior. When we do those things which are pleasing to God, such as the attributes mentioned, there is no need for correction from God's Law.

If I may add a little, what is the standard of conduct? What is right and what is wrong? More importantly, who decides what is right and what is wrong? These questions lead us back to beginning, back to the garden...

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God said to the man of every tree, except the knowledge of good and evil. So, man was invited to eat of the tree of life, but told not to take to himself determining sin and righteousness. That is God's prerogative. What was the first sin?

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Adam and Eve took to themselves the determination of sin and righteousness, thereby, cutting themselves off from the tree of life. God's law defines sin and righteousness...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Our choice is not what sin is, our choice is whether we will sin or not.
 
What about the things mentioned in the OP? The existence of Hell...OSAS...? These are theological points where "respectable and well educated people" vehemently disagree all the time, and each side cites Scripture as their ultimate guide. Are these issues "black and white? Which side is right and why?

I'm not sure what you are asking me here. I mean it's pretty obvious that the issues you mentioned are areas where there is a lot of debate, yet you ask me if they are "black and white" and "which side is right"? If your just trying to get me to take sides on these issues so you can argue with me if I happen to take a side different than yours, I'm not interested in doing that in this thread. I don't think that's what Urk had in mind, afterall , he did say:
This is not a debate thread

You mentioned "gray areas" where people disagree. You mention "as an example of what things I refer to as "grey areas", this could include moderate drinking of alcohol condemned or not, can a divorced person be a deacon or other type of spiritual leader or not, can a woman be a pastor (or elder or deaconess), can men have long hair, is modern music ok, etc?"

My point is, non-essentials of the faith, like the things mentioned above, are not the only things that are "gray areas". OSAS, baptism, the existence and permanence of Hell..., these are the things that divide Christians, are REAL doctrinal points and ARE "GRAY AREAS" within Christianity. In fact, there are comparatively very few "black and white" areas, most are gray due to subjective interpretation of Scripture. It's not just hair length and music. I think you are trying to minimize the divisions and the reasons for them.

If you would like to continue this discussion, feel free to start another thread and I'll respond there. I guess Urk doesn't want any debate here? OK...

Ok, thanks. I understand what you said to me better now. But I would like to make it clear to our readers that I am not "trying to minimize the divisions and the reasons for them" as you seem to have read into this. I not only said that these were simply examples (meaning there are more as well) but even though they may not be things that matter to you in particular, they are things that matter enough to some Christian leaders to actually throw people whom I personally know out of churches over every single example I gave, including my being asked to change my stance on one of these things you refer to as "non-essentials of the faith" or leave a church. (I had to leave.) Far from trying to minimize other areas, I am only stating that there are gray areas that apparently are important enough to others to excommunicate you if you don't see it their way.

As for starting another thread to debate with you the examples I gave, no that wasn't my intention. In fact, the post you challenged me to a debate on wasn't even addressed to you. I didn't make the post with any intention of debating anyone on any particular stance on any of those issues.
 
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I'm hoping we can at least have one thread that is a non-debate thread in apologetics. Rather, this thread is for sharing our feelings, and understanding our flaws.
I was a church member in a church once (Southern Baptist) that forced our pastor to resign over OSAS. Because the Sunday School class that he taught studied Scriptures and interpretations (multiple sides) concerning election and predestination, i.e. OSAS. I feel that was a “flaw†in the way that church treated this Pastor. My feelings is that was a horrible way to treat this man.

The pastor also gave one quick and fair/balanced sermon on the issue when those passages came up in his series. He taught the SS class because no one else would take on the responsibility for the class. He never had a domineering goal or anything like that in mind for the class or the church. He tried his best to make OSAS less critical to the Church’s mission/goal than those that forced him out over this issue. Yet, he did have a reasoned and Biblically supported position on what these passages were saying (and what they were not saying) when the subject came up. Yet certain influential members (Deacons no less) of the church disagreed with his view so much so that they forced him to resign over predestination (OSAS). And ironically, he held and discussed his study on predestination, election, OSAS with as much humility and patience toward other's differing views on the subject as anyone I've ever met. (except those that have never even read those passages of course).

Therefore, to me, the idea of including OSAS (#8 on you OP list) in a list that’s acceptable to "agree to disagree" on is to overly minimize the importance of this topic’s Biblical message. By "message†I mean just exactly what does a Christian say to a fellow Christian or non-Christian that asks you, What does it mean to be saved? or Am I truly saved?, or Can I lose my Salvation? Our answers to this question should be Biblically based, not subjective. Plus, if you have a strongly held differing interpretation of those passages’ meaning, then it’s probably best that you go worship, serve and teach with like minded people on the issue. It’s an accident waiting to happen, otherwise.

I feel the OSAS discussion is in a different class than Vasectomy (#10). Although with some of the personally cuttingly and harshness comments that I’ve seen posted on the OSAS issue, I do see some relationship between the two subjectsJ
 
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