"And there was no more sea..."

[Stormcrow]

{18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

{1} And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1 (KJV)

There has been much speculation about what these verses mean and whether their fulfillment is literal or symbolic, or whether said fulfillment is past or future. In combing through the Old Testament again for clues as to that which John is referring, I came across this passage, from Second Chronicles regarding the furnishings in the Holy of Holies:

1 Then he [Solomon] made a bronze altar, twenty cubits [30'] in length and twenty cubits [30'] in width and ten cubits [15'] in height. 2 Also he made the cast metal sea, ten cubits [15'] from brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits [7.5'] and its circumference thirty cubits [45'].

3 Now figures like oxen were under it and all around it, ten cubits, entirely encircling the sea. The oxen were in two rows, cast in one piece. 4 It stood on twelve oxen, three facing the north, three facing west, three facing south and three facing east; and the sea was set on top of them and all their hindquarters turned inwards. 5 It [the sea] was a handbreadth thick, and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like a lily blossom; it could hold 3,000 baths [12,000 gallons].

6 He also made ten basins in which to wash, and he set five on the right side and five on the left to rinse things for the burnt offering; but the sea was for the priests to wash in. 2 Chronicles 4:1-6 (NASB)

There can be no further doubt in my mind that when Jesus refers to the passing of "heaven and earth", He's referring to the eventual passing (or destruction) of the Temple, as He also prophesies later in Matthew.

And when John - in Revelation - refers to the passing of heaven and earth and mentions that there was "no more sea", it's this large basin in the Temple in which the priests ceremonially washed for "cleansing" before performing their priestly duties.

Furthermore, if we look at Revelation 21:22, John writes this of the New Jerusalem:

{22} I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. {23} And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. Revelation 21:22-23 (NASB)

This again points to the fact that the ancient, physical Temple of Jerusalem - destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD - is gone NEVER TO RETURN and that we - Christ's church - is where the glory of God now rests; the same glory that once caused the priests to stay out of the tabernacle when Gods' presence filled it (lest they die) is the same glory that welcomes us - His church - into His presence and fills us: His new and holy priesthood.

And make no mistake: we have already come to this New Jerusalem, where the sea is no more! We do not bathe in the water of the old sea for cleansing: we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb! That's what John is saying in Revelation 21!

In closing, the sea mentioned by John was - in fact - a large basin filled with water in which the priests in Temple service cleansed themselves. That sea was destroyed with the "heaven and earth" that was the Temple.

{22} let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22 (NASB)

That pure water - all cleansing and life-giving - comes from Christ Himself.

I pray that this revelation I received touches your heart as it has touched mine.

Peace. Out.

 

[Stormcrow]

One more thing I'd like to add about what was written in the OP: the original post (OP) is an example of what I meant when I wrote this in the Revelation 11 thread:

I offer this to anyone else wishing to undertake a serious study of Revelation: don't read it by itself. All of the allusions John makes in it can be found and understood in the context of the gospels, Paul's epistles, and especially the Old Testament.

If you don't have a concordance, follow the link in my signature, get the free Bible software offered there, and use its search feature to find out what the symbolism of Revelation means by using the rest of the Bible to interpret it for you.

The advice of that last paragraph in the quote above still stands. We have no excuse for misunderstanding this stuff anymore.

 

[Hitch]

This again points to the fact that the ancient, physical Temple of Jerusalem - destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD - is gone NEVER TO RETURN and that we - Christ's church - is where the glory of God now rests; the same glory that once caused the priests to stay out of the tabernacle when Gods' presence filled it (lest they die) is the same glory that welcomes us - His church - into His presence and fills us: His new and holy priesthood.

And make no mistake: we have already come to this New Jerusalem, where the sea is no more! We do not bathe in the water of the old sea for cleansing: we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb! That's what John is saying in Revelation 21!

Yup.

 

[Stormcrow]

Taking a look back at the brazen (brass-cast) sea in the OT, I found this from the Wiki:

The Molten Sea or Brazen Sea (ים מוצק "cast metal sea") was a large basin in the Temple in Jerusalem made by Solomon for ablution of the priests. It is described in 1 Kings 7 and 2 Chronicles 4.

the fact that it was a wash basin which was too large to enter from above lends to the idea that water would likely have flowed from it down into a subcontainer beneath.

So the picture we get from this is a large basin for holding clean, pure water used for ritual cleansing, flowing into a lower smaller "laver" (basin or bowl) from which the priests would then ceremonially cleanse themselves.

And here is that picture extended in Revelation:

{1}Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, Revelation 22:1 (NASB)

Yeah. I'm kinda' geeked about this. I feel like a safecracker who just busted open the mother load. Anyone else see what John is saying here?

 

[Sinthesis]

C'mon, you have to credit StoveBolts for sending you to 1st Kings in the first place.

But I don't buy it, at least not as the primary interpretation.
I still see the sea as representing the Gentiles being distinct from the People of God. That distinction disappeared when Jesus opened The Way to everyone through Christianity.

Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

Besides, surely Solomon's sea was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar.

2Ki 25:13 - And the pillars of brass that [were] in the house of the LORD, and the bases, and the brasen sea that [was] in the house of the LORD, did the Chaldees break in pieces, and carried the brass of them to Babylon.​

 

[reba]

Does the renting of the veil dividing off the Holy of Holies come to mind?

 

[Lehigh3]

C'mon, you have to credit StoveBolts for sending you to 1st Kings in the first place.

But I don't buy it, at least not as the primary interpretation.
I still see the sea as representing the Gentiles being distinct from the People of God. That distinction disappeared when Jesus opened The Way to everyone through Christianity.

Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

Besides, surely Solomon's sea was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar.

2Ki 25:13 - And the pillars of brass that [were] in the house of the LORD, and the bases, and the brasen sea that [was] in the house of the LORD, did the Chaldees break in pieces, and carried the brass of them to Babylon.​

The Jews always rebuilt the "brazen sea' in the temple.
http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/

Also, the abolition of the "sea" in Rev.20:13 is a different "sea." It's not a the literal Dead sea or Great sea either. It is used for the heathen. "The beast from the sea" Rev.13, was of course a heathen emperor from the Roman Empire.
So, yes, the heathen (the sea- the abyss) gave up their dead too. Hades referred to Israel's dead. All were judged according to their works, whether good or evil.

 

[Stormcrow]

From Lehigh's link:

The Jewish Temple in the First Century A.D.

Another fifteen steps led up to the famous Gate of Nicanor, to which Mary had brought the child at the time of his presentation; this led through the Court of the Men to that of the priests, which had in its center the altar for the burnt offerings and to the left of it a large basin called the Brazen Sea resting upon twelve bulls cast in bronze.

Rebuilt indeed.

And actually, Stovebolts didn't inspire this particular search. I was actually looking for clues to the two witnesses of Revelation 11 by searching for the word "candlestick" in the OT, and the passage I cited from II Chronicles 4 appeared.

I think the important thing to remember in all of this is that we cannot read Revelation with a 21st century American evangelical point of view, and verse 21:1 certainly bears that out. When we see the word "sea" we immediately understand what that word means to us. But to a first century devout Jew - as we've now seen - that word means something entirely different.

 

[Sinthesis]

From Lehigh's link:

Rebuilt indeed.

And actually, Stovebolts didn't inspire this particular search. I was actually looking for clues to the two witnesses of Revelation 11 by searching for the word "candlestick" in the OT, and the passage I cited from II Chronicles 4 appeared.

I think the important thing to remember in all of this is that we cannot read Revelation with a 21st century American evangelical point of view, and verse 21:1 certainly bears that out. When we see the word "sea" we immediately understand what that word means to us. But to a first century devout Jew - as we've now seen - that word means something entirely different.

Agreed in spirit.

Your passage really jumped out at me because I had followed Stovebolt's advice in the "666" thread not that much earlier before reading your thread. I also sometimes stumble upon unexpected correlations that just click, and the experience is always rewarding.

 

[Hitch]

Does the renting of the veil dividing off the Holy of Holies come to mind?

I wonder how much it cost??

 

[smaller]

The term 'sea' is defined right here in Revelation, obvious to anyone who can read, and yes, allegorical for a certainty.

Rev. 17:
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Why will there be no more sea? Because there will be NO MORE PEOPLE. Why will there be no more people? Because after DEATH we are CHANGED:

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Luke 20:35-36
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Nope, no more 'sea.' The 'sea' gives up the 'dead:'

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

People are referred to in text in allegory many ways...hills, mountains, the sea, wheat, grass, etc etc. All allegorical to PEOPLE.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

The term 'sea' is defined right here in Revelation, obvious to anyone who can read, and yes, allegorical for a certainty.

Rev. 17:
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Why will there be no more sea? Because there will be NO MORE PEOPLE. Why will there be no more people? Because after DEATH we are CHANGED:

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Luke 20:35-36
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Nope, no more 'sea.' The 'sea' gives up the 'dead:'

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

People are referred to in text in allegory many ways...hills, mountains, the sea, wheat, grass, etc etc. All allegorical to PEOPLE.

s

Nonsense.

 

[smaller]

Nonsense.

Sea it how you will

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

 

[Lloyd]

Nonsense.

LOL.. how can you respond like that? What is your problem with people that don't agree with you?

You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror my friend. Pride is absolutley tearing you to pieces and you don't even know it.

 

[Stormcrow]

LOL.. how can you respond like that?

You mean aside from the fact that there's absolutely no exegetical reason for his interpretation or that he strung a mish-mash of completely unrelated verses together to support an interpretation that doesn't pass the smell test?

I just call them as I see them.

 

[smaller]

You mean aside from the fact that there's absolutely no exegetical reason for his interpretation or that he strung a mish-mash of completely unrelated verses together to support an interpretation that doesn't pass the smell test?

I just call them as I see them.

The fact is when a person only looks at flesh people who lived in 70a.d. and revolves their entire eschatology around that single event as it somehow being the completion of everything, there is no wonder whatsoever that spiritual understanding may be blocked and funneled into those preconceived notions.

The fact is with all scripture it does address the workings of evil and Satan and that activity transpires IN MAN.

It is quite fruitless to try to see anti-Christ spirits in a PHYSICAL WAY. These matters are not viewable as a solely physical matter and must be seen through the eyes of allegory and parable because they are physically intangible.

And to say the whole enchilada was a done deal in 70 a.d. is the real nonsense.

The devil continues to deceive THE WHOLE WORLD just as scriptures teach. That old dragon does that working IN PEOPLE. The realities of these matters are conveyed in allegorical terms because such things are beyond the grasp of the flesh eye.

Those who look on the outside of the cup will see NOTHING as the issues are internal, in the hearts of man from which EVIL comes.

You are welcome to revolve your entire thesis about these matters on a few Jews in 70a.d. and I will continue to see that as lamely preposterous in relationship to the workings of evil which are DEMONIC and non-physical events that are internal.

The sea of confusion reigns within the hearts of mankind. That is where Babylon IS.

enjoy!

s

 

[reba]

PLAY NICE



Moderator

 

[Stormcrow]

In going back through some of the posts in this thread, there seems to be a critical lack of insight regarding the significance of the Temple in Hebrew thought and practice.

It's important to remember that the Temple not only represented the seat of Jewish Law and religious observance, but it was the symbol of Israel's national identity. In short, it was to the Jew what the Vatican is to the Roman Catholic, or the halls of our republic's institutions are to freedom-loving Americans.

But more importantly, the Temple - fashioned after the Tabernacle God commanded Moses to build based on the heavenly Tabernacle - represented the creation story in architecture. It represented the union of heaven and earth.

The Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem is the intersection between Heaven and Earth, the dwelling place of the Lord among His peoples.

http://jameswassermanbooks.com/Solomon.html

The temple was a physical replica of God’s heavenly abode…The temple represented God’s home on earth.

http://www.askelm.com/temple/t040301.htm
The Temple as symbolic of the cosmos

Closely related to the preceding discussion is an understanding of the Temple and its furnishings as symbolic of different parts of the universe, a point of view characteristic of Josephus, Philo, and some later writers referred to in the commentaries. Thus Josephus can state that the tripartite division of the sanctuary corresponds to the sea, the earth, and the heavens…

http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Temple-Non-Biblical-Sourcebook/dp/0415102405#reader_0415102405

The Temple was the House of God, where God's presence was readily available to all those who sought Him...The Temple was the terrestrial place of the Almighty, with His presence more concentrated there than anywhere in the world. It was in essence the embassy of Heaven on Earth.

http://www.cohen-levi.org/temple_studies/introduction_to_the_temple.htm

The significance of the Temple to the Jewish writers of the New Testament cannot be understated. Even Paul, who was the "apostle to the Gentiles" returned each year to participate in the Temple feasts as required by the Law. It was upon one such visit he was arrested!

So when Christ - a Jew born under the Law - talks about the Temple as being "His house" when He drives out the money changers, He is telling them - and us - just how significant these buildings on the Temple mount are!

Now, with this background in mind, follow this progression of prophetic writing from Matthew and John:

{18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

{34} "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. {35} "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. {36} "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Matthew 24:34-36 (NASB)

{1} Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. Revelation 21:1 (NASB)

Every single one of these passages is referring to the Temple: the place where God dwelt on earth until Christ came, in whom "the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily." And it's through Christ's sacrifice that we now share in the same Spirit of God who now indwells us: the church, believing Jews and Gentiles, His new Temple.
People who refuse to accept the truth of this are simply preaching another gospel.

 

[reba]

One whole post and nothing snarky! Break out the band :guitar


Take the time to plan your remarks to avoid the quick comebacks. Thanks reba

 

[smaller]

Typology is a tough gig.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Temple typology?

John 2:21
But he spake of the temple of his body.

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And what comprises the temple?

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The first temples were 'examples' of spiritual realities, the meanings of which do NOT revolve solely around the physical occupants of Israel and temple of 70a.d.

The final Temple is here:

Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

That Temple is still under construction. All believers will have a place therein.

s