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Growth And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple

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oh, wow...excellent. seriously. i've been praying for a while now that will make me less...well, me...more Jesus. back when i was a teen, etc. i was labeled w/ 'severe narcissistic personality disorder.' as with pretty much everything mental health, inc. is selling, it was (and is) lies and fraud, not just for me...in general...however...

1 good thing--only 'good' because of Christ--about having been so labeled is that I -get- the need for self-renunciation. i am no ascetic, no misanthrope; even though I'm Protestant, I like to learn from the Catholics, and...

they (the RCC) have a concpet, "proper/godly self-love." it means accepting where one is, right now, in spiritual formation and development. one thing i do -not- like about, say, Puritan writings is this over the top, almost theatrical hatred of self. seriously. self will be with each of us till He calls each of us home...then, we'll be recreated as who we -really- are, for eternity. and now...

for me, right now, it means giving up self-love, self-analysis (I blame mental health, inc. for a lot of that, but...no matter; I have repented and prayed forgiveness and -help-, please), and leaning on Him...mostly in prayer, but also thru what happens throughout the day, with The Holy Spirit opening the eyes of my heart to...

rebellion (its as bad as witchcraft!), ingratitude, laziness, gluttony, pride, clinging to childish things, grabbing at what's left of the old man, -judging- others and then hiding the judgment...

looking to the world for a boost, acceptance, etc....trying to 'think' my way into fruits of the spirit (not happening), and...

yeah, a lot of it for me, right now, as I see it seems to be about giving up trying to grow in Christ thru self-effort. well-intentioned? sure. the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

good to see you posting, iLove. :)
 

Nathan12

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How do I deny myself - bear my own cross daily - and follow Jesus to stay saved?
Jesus said "to be my disciple", not "to stay saved". There is a difference. Salvation is purely a work of God's grace by the power of the Holy Spirit. God saves us and God keeps us saved. But being a disciple means being a follower of Christ.

Rather than focusing on the negative aspect of crucifying or mortifying "the flesh" (the old sinful nature), focus on the positive aspects of doing what Christ did (Luke 4:18,19), and "preach" means "proclaim":
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me
[1] to preach the gospel to the poor
[2] he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
[3] to preach deliverance to the captives, and
[4] recovering of sight to the blind
[5] to set at liberty them that are bruised
[6] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


All of this will require self-denial since you will be doing God's will, not your own. Christ said that He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister. So you do the same.
 

for_his_glory

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Colossians 3:
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
 

iLOVE

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Jesus said "to be my disciple", not "to stay saved". There is a difference. Salvation is purely a work of God's grace by the power of the Holy Spirit. God saves us and God keeps us saved. But being a disciple means being a follower of Christ.

Rather than focusing on the negative aspect of crucifying or mortifying "the flesh" (the old sinful nature), focus on the positive aspects of doing what Christ did (Luke 4:18,19), and "preach" means "proclaim":
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me
[1] to preach the gospel to the poor
[2] he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
[3] to preach deliverance to the captives, and
[4] recovering of sight to the blind
[5] to set at liberty them that are bruised
[6] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


All of this will require self-denial since you will be doing God's will, not your own. Christ said that He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister. So you do the same.
For My Flesh is meat indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed (the idea is that one must continue eating and drinking even on a daily basis, which speaks of bearing the Cross daily [Lk. 9:23]).

As far as trying to do something as it concerns taking up the Cross daily, we are to do nothing. In fact, it was already done at Calvary some two thousand years ago. On a daily basis, we should reinforce our Faith in Christ and what He has done for us at the Cross (Rom. 6:3-5; 8:2, Gal. 2:20-21, Col. 2:10-15). This is the "Truth" which we must learn, act upon, and continue to act upon, which guarantees the help of the Holy Spirit.

He who eats My Flesh, and drinks My Blood, dwells in Me, and I in him (the only way that one can dwell in Christ and Christ in him, which guarantees a victorious, overcoming life, is for the Cross to ever be the Object of Faith and, as stated, on a daily basis). John 6:55-56

Question? Based on the following scripture (John 6:66) below are these people who are called Disciples still saved in John 6:66?

John 6:53 - "Except you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His Blood, you have no life in you," (presents the demand that caused "many of His Disciples to go back, and walk no more with Him" (John 6:66). It does the same presently! This Verse tells us the degree of believing that is required; it refers to the Cross being the total Object of one's belief; failing that, there is no Life in you).

John 6:66 - From that time many of His Disciples went back, and walk no more with Him.

JSM
 
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see...this is the sort of Christian discussion I like...you get 2 different viewpoints, Scripture from each, and meaningful discussion. excellent.

"Ye shall know a tree by the fruit that it bears." I've never seen solid, true believers--I mean, Christians who still believe in miracles, redemption, The Power of The Blood, etc.--like I have in Pentecostals, including Jimmy Swaggert. Flaws and all, he pushes the transcendent elements of Christianity (which really -is- a miracle religion, btw) and...yeah. yeah.

Thanks for the Scripture+commentary, iLove. :)
 

ezra

 
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How do I deny myself - bear my own cross daily - and follow Jesus to stay saved?
its a spiritual cross 5 Mortify { put to death) therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: Galatians 2:20 Romans 12:1-2 Mortify is used same way as a mortician who takes care of the dead there are many more scriptures none of this is done with out the power of the Holy Spirit
and follow Jesus to stay saved?
where does it say that ?
 

ezra

 
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Jesus said "to be my disciple", not "to stay saved". There is a difference. Salvation is purely a work of God's grace by the power of the Holy Spirit. God saves us and God keeps us saved. But being a disciple means being a follower of Christ.
:amen
 

Nathan12

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As far as trying to do something as it concerns taking up the Cross daily, we are to do nothing.
That is certainly NOT what that Scripture (andother Scriptures) teach about taking up our crosses.

The metaphor of taking up the cross is similar to Christ having been made to carry His cross to Golgotha so that He would be crucified. So Christians are to crucify or mortify "the flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) by denying ungodliness and worldly lusts. That certainly does not translate into doing nothing.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Rom 8:13)

Mortify means "put to death". Which means that you are actively nailing your "flesh" to your cross, and then nailing down the coffin of that crucified old nature. Christians are exhorted to be dead to sin and alive to God. And of course all of this is "through the Spirit".
 

for_his_glory

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So many think that once they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior there is nothing else they need to do as grace is enough. They sit back in their easy chair, dust off their Bible for Sunday service and then live like heathens the rest of the week for after all they are under God's grace that gives them a license to sin and God has already forgiven them no matter what they do.

Sorry, but grace does not give us a license to sin and Christ sacrifice on the cross was not for nothing. There is much work to do for the kingdom of God here on earth as we need to crucify this flesh daily, walk in obedience to God's commands and keep ourselves unblemished from the lust of the world. This takes us picking up our cross and follow in the footsteps of Christ and to carry out the continued works of the Lord.
 

ezra

 
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This takes us picking up our cross and follow in the footsteps of Christ and to carry out the continued works of the Lord.
the cross was for death for Christ his death was a sacrifice once and for all .. how many really put to death the flesh once and for all.. how many present there Bodies a living sacrifice Holy and acceptable to God . No Grace was never to be a license to sin.. but A CRUTCH so to speak if we did Romans 5:20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, the law means an inward practice of action good or evil Grace is God Riches at Christ expense..SO YES GRACE IS THERE WHEN WE NEED HELP ..thank God for his Mercy an Grace
2 Corinthians 3:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life
 

iLOVE

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That is certainly NOT what that Scripture (andother Scriptures) teach about taking up our crosses.

The metaphor of taking up the cross is similar to Christ having been made to carry His cross to Golgotha so that He would be crucified. So Christians are to crucify or mortify "the flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) by denying ungodliness and worldly lusts. That certainly does not translate into doing nothing.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Rom 8:13)

Mortify means "put to death". Which means that you are actively nailing your "flesh" to your cross, and then nailing down the coffin of that crucified old nature. Christians are exhorted to be dead to sin and alive to God. And of course all of this is "through the Spirit".
The works of any Believer is to fight the good fight of Faith. God will not accept anything else from any man or woman but faith (and praise) in His Son Jesus. The scripture says, "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASE, AND LISTEN TO HIM." God never said that about any Believer. Psalm 39:5 says, "...every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah." In other words we are all wretched and vile, daily. Anything and everything that is not Faith in Christ and Him Crucified is judge as iniquity (Matthew 7:21-23).

Very - Very Important: If any Believer try's to do what the scripture says do in their own will-power, strength, and ability, the sin nature that was made dormant (not eliminated) when you where born-again, will be activated (the works of the flesh will manifest - Gal. 5:19-21). The Law says do - Grace says done. This is why I stated only the Holy Spirit can do what the scriptures ask of us through Faith in Christ and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won.

Many Believers believe they can do what the scriptures ask of us in our own strength, ability, and will-power. This is reverting back to the “LAW.”

“18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed (revert back to the Law), I make myself a transgressor. (To revert to any type of Law is a departure from God’s Prescribed Order of Victory [the Cross], and is sin).” Gal. 2:18
 

iLOVE

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Faith placed exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, will always produce proper works by the Holy Spirit. This is the only Faith God will recognize. Anything and everything that is not of the Spirit is "dead faith." Lifeless Faith is profitless (rotten fruit). James 2:14-18

All works must be produced and birth by the Holy Spirit or it is dead works.

The Way Of The Spirit - TheTree of Life
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way - The Tree of the knowledge of good and evil - the work of the flesh
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

  1. Jesus Christ is the source of all blessings.
  2. The Cross is the means by which all blessings are given.
  3. The object of our faith must be Christ and the Cross.
  4. That being done, the Holy Spirit will greatly help us.
JSM
 

iLOVE

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We enter into sanctification by placing and maintaining our Faith exclusively in Christ and the Cross, i.e., The Finished Work, i.e., The Blood of Jesus (Romans 8:2). The Holy Spirit only works exclusively between Jesus Christ and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won. This is the only way the Believer receives Grace. Anything and everything outside of Christ and Him Crucified is the law of sin and death. This is why Paul said, "We preach Christ Crucified." Why would he say that? Because that is the only answer and solution for sin.
 

ezra

 
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3 steps in sanctification positional progressive and ultimate
 

iLOVE

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Philippians 3:17-21 King James Version (KJV)

ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE


17 Brethren, be followers together of me (be "Fellow-imitators"), and mark them which walk so as you have us for an ensample (observe intently).

18 (For many walk (speaks of those attempting to live for God outside of the victory and rudiments of the Cross of Christ), of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping (this is a most serious matter), that they are the enemies of the Cross of Christ (those who do not look exclusively to the Cross of Christ must be labeled "enemies"):

19 Whose end is destruction (if the Cross is ignored, and continues to be ignored, the loss of the soul is the only ultimate conclusion), whose God is their belly (refers to those who attempt to pervert the Gospel for their own personal gain), and whose glory is in their shame (the material things they seek, God labels as "shame"), who mind earthly things.) (This means they have no interest in Heavenly things, which signifies they are using the Lord for their own personal gain.)

20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in Heaven (meaning the other ways will have no place in Heaven); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ (the Rapture):

21 Who (the Lord) shall change our vile body (the Resurrection), that it may be fashioned like unto his Glorious body (every Saint will have a Glorified Body), according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. ("All things" are done through the Cross.)

JSM
 

for_his_glory

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the cross was for death for Christ his death was a sacrifice once and for all .. how many really put to death the flesh once and for all.. how many present there Bodies a living sacrifice Holy and acceptable to God . No Grace was never to be a license to sin.. but A CRUTCH so to speak if we did Romans 5:20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, the law means an inward practice of action good or evil Grace is God Riches at Christ expense..SO YES GRACE IS THERE WHEN WE NEED HELP ..thank God for his Mercy an Grace
2 Corinthians 3:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life
In the flesh is no good thing. This is why we need to put to death those things of the flesh and walk daily in the Spiritas we have put on the new man which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. Can we be perfect in the flesh, no, but can be perfect in the Spirit for we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God. Colossians 3:5-7.

This is our daily cross to bear as the flesh will always battle against the Spirit, but we have victory over the flesh through the precious blood of Jesus that was shed for all.

Grace is not a crutch, but undeserved favor as the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and when we humble ourselves before the Lord with a pure heart His grace always forgives us.
 

JohnDB

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Picking up your cross and follow me...
Powerful words...especially if you understand what it really means.

People in the Ancient Near East were all about Legacy.
Legacy for everyone exists in one fashion or another. Everyone leaves one of some sort. Either positive and long lasting or negative and usually short...a few exceptions for exceptionally being bad do exist...but with the animosity surrounding these behaviors...its not like Benedict, Judas, Jezebel, or Delilah are considered good names to give to a child.

But we do leave some kind of legacy through our children and our behavior in the community at large. We do have an effect upon neighbors, friends, and acquaintances. It can be for positive results or negative results.

Walking the Via Del a Rosa it becomes very obvious...crucifixion was all about humiliation.
Most civilized countries place criminals far away from the public at large. The most we see of them is video or pictures. (booking pictures with the numbers under their name and a bad hair style and some kind of frown)

When walking the "Way of the Cross" its obvious everyone is in your face...not far away. And at the time people understood that Crucifixion was reserved for the worst of the criminals. It was humiliating for everyone to see exactly your face while you were on the way to paying for your crimes against the society you lived in. You were humiliated...there was no chance whatsoever for being remembered for your good qualities...everyone would remember your walk of shame to your crucifixion.

Everyone remembers the Hollywood actors who have been arrested and their mug shots...Just by my mentioning it I'm sure you are thinking of a few right now that stand out. Same thing with a crucifixion walk.

Then...while being crucified they stripped you naked...completely naked so people could jeer at your genitals while you were dying slowly. Jews were proud of their beards...but usually they got ripped out or cut. The whole thing was a process of mockery and humiliation.

Jesus talked a lot about zeal...its mentioned often in the Old Testament as well. From the Covenant of Salt (part of "Salt and Light" to David running to meet Goliath...zeal was the thing.

picking up your cross...it is all about zeal. Sure...an aspect of sanctification is needed. But moreso that becoming a spectacle for Christ that others laugh at is more in line.
 

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