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Growth And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple

Nathan12

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This is why I stated only the Holy Spirit can do what the scriptures ask of us through Faith in Christ and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won.
That is precisely what Paul said in Romans 8:13 (which I quoted): For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So the Christian is not passive in this matter. He or she depends on the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to crucify the flesh. And that can also happen when we focus on the positive aspect of walking in the Spirit.
 

StoveBolts

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Jesus said "to be my disciple", not "to stay saved". There is a difference. Salvation is purely a work of God's grace by the power of the Holy Spirit. God saves us and God keeps us saved. But being a disciple means being a follower of Christ.

Rather than focusing on the negative aspect of crucifying or mortifying "the flesh" (the old sinful nature), focus on the positive aspects of doing what Christ did (Luke 4:18,19), and "preach" means "proclaim":
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me
[1] to preach the gospel to the poor
[2] he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
[3] to preach deliverance to the captives, and
[4] recovering of sight to the blind
[5] to set at liberty them that are bruised
[6] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


All of this will require self-denial since you will be doing God's will, not your own. Christ said that He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister. So you do the same.
Excellent reply!

Could we then say that by living into our faith, we then, are participating in the works and life of Christ, our savior?
 

Nathan12

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Excellent reply!

Could we then say that by living into our faith, we then, are participating in the works and life of Christ, our savior?
Absolutely. And that is exactly what the apostles taught.
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps (1 Pet 2:21).
 

iLOVE

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And that can also happen when we focus on the positive aspect of walking in the Spirit.
I disagree. It must be by Faith placed and maintained exclusively in Christ and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won that allows the Holy Spirit the legal means to help us to walk in the spirit (The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus - Romans 8:2). Failure to do so, the works of the flesh will manifest (Galatians 5:19-21); the sin nature is now reactivated. Using the flesh as you have suggested frustrates grace and puts the Believer under the law (Galatians 2:18, 20-21).
 
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Nathan12

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Using the flesh as you have suggested...
How could I have suggested "using the flesh" when I specifically said "walking in the Spirit" (the exact opposite)?

But if you enjoy disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, that is your prerogative. As long as you do not misrepresent what is clearly stated.
 

iLOVE

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How could I have suggested "using the flesh" when I specifically said "walking in the Spirit" (the exact opposite)?

But if you enjoy disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, that is your prerogative. As long as you do not misrepresent what is clearly stated.
You stated, "And that can also happen when we focus on the positive aspect of walking in the Spirit."

Please understand that Christian disciplines will not give us victory over the sin, the world, the flesh, and the Devil. In other words, you can focus, you can meditate, pray more, read the bible more, fast, and still be defeated - even though these things are scriptural. This is what the Apostle meant when he said, "When the commandment came, it deceived me (Romans 7:11).

God has chosen to operate His work from the basis of faith. "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:2) is God's prescribed order of victory for the Believer over sin, the world, the flesh, and the Devil. This means that the Believer must place and maintain proper Faith the size of a mustard seed exclusively in Christ (who He is) and His Finished Work (what He has done), i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus. Why? Because whatsoever that is not faith is sin. By doing so this enters the Believer into justification and progressive sanctification that gives the Holy Spirit the legal means to keep all commandments and all laws that is impossible for us to do. The Holy Spirit renews the mind when Faith is placed and maintained in Christ and Him Crucified. Why? Because we are now operating in the spirit. The presenting of your body as a living sacrifice and the renewing of the mind is not a Christian discipline nor a work of labor, but an act of Faith to believe only - daily. No Believer can fix the flesh with the flesh. All fruits that are added to the leaves of the Believer most be done by the Holy Spirit or you enter the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21).

The Holy Spirit, He Works strictly within the parameters of Jesus Christ and the "Finished Work" i.e., "the Cross of Christ" i.e. "the Blood of Jesus," which demands that our Faith be exclusively in the Cross of Christ. The reason is simple, that's were the price was paid, and the victory was forever won (Romans 6:1-14; 1 Cor. 2:2; Gal. 5; Gal. 6:14; Eph. 2:13-18; Col. 2:14-15).

For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (Romans 14:23)

The Law Of The Spirit Of Life In Christ Jesus gives the Believer victory over sin, the world, the flesh, and the Devil.

Victory over sin: Romans 6:14
Victory over the world: Galatians 6:14 ; 1 John 5:4
Victory over the flesh: Galatians 5:24
Victory over the Devil: Hebrews 2:14 ; Colossians 2:15

How does a Believer maintain faith exclusively in Christ and the Cross? By just believing in Jesus (who He is) and what He accomplished at Calvary Cross. Romans 4:5 - Galatians 2:19-21 NKJV - 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NKJV - Colossians 2:11-15 NKJV
 
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Nathan12

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Please understand that Christian disciplines will not give us victory over the sin, the world, the flesh, and the Devil. In other words, you can focus, you can meditate, pray more, read the bible more, fast, and still be defeated...
Again, you are trying to create conflict instead of agreeing with the truth that Christians are exhorted to walk in the Spirit, which means displaying the fruit of the Spirit in their lives (which are all positive). Which also means to "walk in His steps" which is also all positive, not negative (such as "still be defeated").

But if you prefer conflict, go for it. I have no interest in arguing about this.
 

RevSRE

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Since this is the single most important topic we discuss in Christianity I wish to offer a few ideas that are very important to the full understanding of this topic. Please forgive the length of this post there is a lot here and still I fear I cut the explanations short but I pray you will see just how important this is to being a Christian.

THREE PARTS OF SALVATION!

Please prayerfully stay with me on this, I am asking you to consider the fact that there is more to SALVATION than saying “Lord Save Me.”

To see the whole of the subject we need all the story, very briefly;

God created all the world and made man, (HE had His reason that is beyond my purpose now).

God Said “Do not eat of that tree” Was that a “test”, a “challenge”, or just a commandment? For now let’s just stay with God said do not eat of that tree, in the day you do you will surely die.

Satan had already disobeyed God and took this opportunity to deceive Adam and Eve.

God made man in His Image, Man had the ability to obey God or NOT.

Eve then Adam followed Satan’s lead and disobeyed God.

Disobedience broke fellowship with God and all mankind was left in a position of being subject to Satan’s deceit, accusations, and counterfeit of truth. Please note here sin, all sin, is disobedience to GOD. (The evil that results is the effect if sin, the symptom of sin and serving as evidence of sin.)

There needed to be a way for man to be redeemed, God, in the garden, shed blood to cover sin and shame. He gave Adam and Eve the “First Gospel” Gen 3:15 the Promise of a savior. To claim that promise Adam and Eve HAD TO OBEY GOD, they had to make the sacrifices.

Jesus the savior came to earth and once and for all PAID THAT DEBT IN FULL. The work of Jesus, the work of the Cross, the Payment made IS GOD’S GRACE freely offered to all.

When we by our free choice (ok, with the Spirits Calling) when we make the choice to believe in Jesus and ask God to make us His. (There are libraries full of books dealing with the theology of how, that is not my point not) We are SAVED. Step number ONE Accept the Grace of God by Faith in Jesus.

BUT, BUT, BUT… that is not all. We often in our preaching and teaching make it sound like the purpose of life is “To find GRACE” All there is that is required is to SAY LORD SAVE ME, THAT IS NOT TRUE!!

Grace is THE STARTING POINT, not the Destination!!



Part two; THERE ARE WORKS IN LIVING FOR GOD!!

It is true that there are no works in Grace God did that for us. But we have a lot of works in living a Christian life, we have sacrifices to make.

The sacrifice is being rejected by a sinful world because I am not part of this world. And rejecting natural self, I give my all to God.

The sacrifice is I die with Christ and share His Cross, I die to self, a bondslave to the Master.

The Promise is that I am risen in the Risen Christ, a new creature a child of God.

The risen Savior Jesus is my King, my all in all and my promise, I will rise in Him when He Comes.

There is more to BEING SAVED than church attendance and saying “I’m Saved.”

There are the sacrifices!

Rejected by the world and rejecting the world and self.

Dead to self and sharing the cross of Jesus dead with HIM.

Risen as new creatures in Christ in the family of God.


  • Francis Shaffer From True Spirituality ( it is worth reading)


To live in myself, my will is to follow Satan’s counterfeit. Psalms says the Fool has said in his heart there is no God. But to make the sacrifice rejecting the world and the counterfeit is to die with Christ to share His Cross and die to self. A bondslave to Jesus not my will but always His.

The sacrifice of today, the part of salvation we fail to see and I fear practice is rejection of self and the world, to share in the cross. I belong to the King of Kings not to me. We cannot say Jesus save me and live the way we want to after that.

The ones that by faith accept God’s gift of grace know what Romans 3:21-24 says. The answer to disobeying God is in what God gives, His Righteousness made known in Jesus. We must have that righteousness to come before God. Jesus took my place and paid the debt I could not pay and in HIS BLOOD gave me that righteousness.



There is therefore (The therefore is Jesus) now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 8:1-2



The THEREFORE is the Blood Paid Price that gives to us The Righteousness. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
 

RevSRE

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Saved by Grace through Faith Rejecting self and the world we are indwelled by God’s the Holy Spirit. The position of God’s Spirit is the surety of the promise of the resurrection. The promise that when we die with Christ and yield our self to Him we shall be risen at His coming. Yet, it is a present position. Just as in Christ Blood, Adam was covered by the sacrifice “Looking forward to the promise was in right standing with God. So too we in Christ are new creatures, Old things are passed away and all things become new. Today’s sacrifice is rejecting self and this world and dying with Christ on the Cross. We are His yielded to Him. The sacrifice, the cost is, “MY all on the Cross with Jesus.” The righteousness of God and the resurrection are the promise of that sacrifice THEY ARE MINE NOW!!!

If however Satan can convince us that we are so evil so “Totally Depraved” that we cannot know God, Satan has made a major step to making every man a sinner.



Christians are not and cannot be Sinners.



Satan has made this, “you are a sinner” idea work for a long time and steals the Christian Victory we should have. If people are convinced that they are too sinful to choose, God must do it all and choose who will be saved “what difference does it make God will Do it all any way” But, if we recognize that there two groups of people and that a free moral agent is responsible for the choice they make. We must choose to make the sacrifice to live for God. Reject the world, reject self and Satan, die with Christ on His cross to Live again.

I hear preachers talking about “Repentant Sinners” almost to the point you would think we have to be saved or at least repent of our many sins every week, day, hour.



But, the work of Jesus on the cross made a difference, we are not, cannot be in the flesh bound to sin. Jesus changed all that!



Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

Rom 8:2 But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.



Everything Adam did to damage fellowship between man and God: JESUS restored and more too. Jesus is now at the right hand of God as our intercessor, so if we fail He is there to protect us. We are in Christ, we cannot be living in sin!

A Christian is not a Repentant Sinner. Was a sinner yes, but now a new creature in Christ, not living in sin and constantly repenting of sin, we must choose to turn from sin.

A Christian is in Christ! In Christ we are “Indwelled by the Holy Spirit”, Adopted into the family of God, Adopted as Children of God, Heirs of God, Joint heirs with Christ. Old things are passed away ALL things are become new. We are the temple of God indwelled by the Holy Spirit we are Priest of the Most High God with Jesus as Our High Priest. We are a Royal Priest hood and will rule with Christ in the Kingdom. The office of a Priest has always been to lead the people to God, to teach the people by life and example how to come to and know God. In Christ that is our responsibility NOW. We must choose to be a servant of Christ and do His will in all we do.

There are TWO groups of people, the ones choosing God and the ones that reject God. There is now and always has been two groups in the world “sons of God” and “sons of men”.



Being saved, Living in God is about acknowledging and obeying and trusting GOD.



1Pe 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.



Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing…



This new birthright of Grace and our place in it along with our relation to Jesus Christ our High Priest is the heart of “many things to say” and of which we cannot allow ourselves to be “dull of hearing”. Much of the problem in our present time comes from the church not teaching the true position and responsibilities of the Christian.

We have a responsibility to go tell others the wonders of God’s grace. If there are suffering and hard work, the toil is nothing compared to the love of God. And even this suffering has a promise.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.



We have a responsibility, Every Christian has a responsibility, to be a bondslave of the Master and teach the Church and learn the truth from the word of God and to share this truth with others. We must learn what we can of what the world is saying and the errors that confront the Church. How else can we ever seek to teach the truth and correct errors if we do not know what they are?

The birthright with Christ carries with it a great responsibility.



Part three is the hardest to understand and explain.


This final step in salvation is called many things by different groups all trying to explain the wonders of salvation. Some say “a second work of Grace”, others “Christian maturity” or ”Christian Perfection”. Still others “Total sanctification” but all I think are trying to say the same thing.

As we mature in Christian service we learn the more I yield myself to God the more His power can flow through me to do His work and will. When Living for Jesus is all I want and know there is a change in life that solves many problems. To be only HIS my all in all what a blessed thought.

Again forgive the length of this post but I do not know how to say it in less words.
 

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