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Andy Atheist On Human Free Will.

JAG ..

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Andy Atheist Wrote:
"If the Supreme Being is all knowledgeable (Omniscience)
then it follows that if the Supreme Being knows today,
what action I will take tomorrow and the Supreme Being's
knowledge is infallible, then I have no choice tomorrow
to do anything other than to make the choice that the
Supreme Being knew I would choose."
___Andy Atheist


JAG Replies:
Yes it is true that since God is Omniscient and knows
the future and knows what you will choose to do, then
you will do that which He knows that you will do.

But , , ,
that does NOT mean that you did not freely choose
to do that which He knew you would do.

Here we need to understand what Free Will means.

Free Will means there is no Force external to you, that
forces you to do, that which you do not want to do.

God merely knowing what you will choose to do, does
not mean that God forces you to do, that which He knew
you would choose to do. Nor does it mean that you did
not want to do it. You did want to do it. Your Free Will
freely chose to do whatever you did.

Repeat , , ,
Free Will means that there is no Force outside of you,
that is forcing or coercing you into choosing to do that
which is against what you want to do. The fact that God
knows what you will choose to do, does not mean that
there was any Force-Outside-Of-You coercing you to
do that which God knew you would choose to do.

__________

Secular , , ,
Free Will is a secular truth, and not only a religious truth;
How so?
Because all of Civilized Humanity recognizes the legitimacy
of the institution of Free Will and has legislated human
Free Will into law. the Law says humans are responsible
for their choices. The Law recognizes the legitimacy of
the Institution of human Free Will.

Keeping in mind what Andy Atheist said, read this
dialogue between Henry and The Judge.

Henry: Your Honor, yes it is true that I robbed that bank
and in the process I killed three bank tellers, but Your
Honor, God is Omniscient and God knew I would rob
the bank and kill those three tellers, so Your Honor its
not my fault that I committed this crime, I merely did
what God knew I would do.

The Judge: Oh okay, Henry. I understand. Thanks for
explaining. Case dismissed.

So?
So humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
So all this talk about Free Will NOT being a true, valid,
and legitimate explanation of why humans are personally
responsible before God for the evil choices they make
is irrational and belongs in the basement below the
basement where unproductive totally-useless abstract
philosophical academic speculations blathers on and on
and on.
Nothing said by humans can invalidate this truth: Humans
Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
_________

Atheists will always blame God , , ,
However my view is that the air-tight solid truth
demonstrated in the conversation between
Henry and The Judge, will be dismissed as
nonsense by atheists and the irrational assault
on the institution of human Free Will as a
legitimate and valid explanation of human
evil and sin will continue as if Henry and
The Judge had never been presented. Why?
Because atheists who remain atheists are
NOT going to ever give up blaming God for
the evil in the world -- and thereby excusing
themselves for their own Free Will evil
choices to do evil.

What does Henry and The Judge demonstrate?
That Humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will
Choices. -- and to say otherwise reduces to
absurd-nonsense.

The Coming Judgment , , ,
One last point: Not only does all of Civilized Law
recognize Free Will as a legitimate explanation for
human evil choices, but so does God and the Bible
and God's laws regarding Free Will will be applied
at The Judgment just as man's laws regarding Free Will
are applied in Human Courts. What does that mean?
It means that human Free Will choices will determine
human Eternal destiny. John 3:16 asks humans to make
a choice. Joshua 24:15 asks humans to make a choice.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom you will
serve, whether the gods your ancestors served
beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land you are living. But as for me and my
household, we will serve the LORD." ___Joshua 24:15


`
`
 

Who Me

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Because atheists who remain atheists are
NOT going to ever give up blaming God for
the evil in the world -- and thereby excusing
themselves for their own Free Will evil
choices to do evil.
Which shows how irational atheist s are. They are blaming evil on a being they say does not exist.
 

JAG ..

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Which shows how irational atheist s are. They are blaming evil on a being they say does not exist.
"Which shows how irrational atheists are. They are
blaming evil on a being they say does not exist."___Who Me


Exactly!
Atheists are constantly taking about the "God-That-Does-Not-Exist.
They cannot get the God-That-Does-Not-Exist off their minds.
Romans 1: 18-20 tells us why.

Who Me, thanks for the comment.

`
 

Who Me

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You've posted this somewhere else, where was it, the worthy forum?
 

Quantrill

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Because 'free will' means there is no force outside of you coercing your will, I have always said man does not have free will.

Man has a will, but his will is always being pressured and forced upon by external forces beyond his control. He must exercise his will. But his will isn't free. My opinion.

I see only God having free will. Nothing pressures or forces God's will.

Quantrill
 

Edward

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Because 'free will' means there is no force outside of you coercing your will, I have always said man does not have free will.
This is wrong. Free will does mean there is no force outside of you that forces you into actions. There is however, forces (spirits) that will try to coerce your will. It always comes down to we make a decision.

Man has a will, but his will is always being pressured and forced upon by external forces beyond his control.
This is pretty much opposite of what your first paragraph said. What is it then, that you believe?
 

Quantrill

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This is wrong. Free will does mean there is no force outside of you that forces you into actions. There is however, forces (spirits) that will try to coerce your will. It always comes down to we make a decision.



This is pretty much opposite of what your first paragraph said. What is it then, that you believe?
No it wasn't. I just said what I believe. Man does not have free will. He has a will. Only God has free will. Do I need to repeat it again.

Quantrill
 
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Andy Atheist Wrote:
"If the Supreme Being is all knowledgeable (Omniscience)
then it follows that if the Supreme Being knows today,
what action I will take tomorrow and the Supreme Being's
knowledge is infallible, then I have no choice tomorrow
to do anything other than to make the choice that the
Supreme Being knew I would choose."
___Andy Atheist
Looks like Atheism has something in common with Calvinism.
 

Edward

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No it wasn't. I just said what I believe. Man does not have free will. He has a will. Only God has free will. Do I need to repeat it again.

Quantrill
Oh I see. You've differentiated will and free will, my bad. Ok Now I understand your post. But it seems incredulous that mankind does not possess a free will.

Let me ask you this, If mankind does not have free will, then what's the point to God creating us and earth at all? If we really didn't sin because it was evil spirits forcing us into evil...and those times that we do good deeds for our neighbors, it wasn't really us or out of the goodness of our heart because it was God's Spirit doing it, then none of those things whether good or evil could be accountable to us. You see the quandary?

We have to make decisions and actions. We exercise our free will at least 100 times per day. We all have multiple voices within us. Good and bad. You have a conscience, so do I. Anyone can have a thought to commit a sin and having that thought is not a sin. It's usually then that the conscience speaks up and says, man don't do that, do the right thing. Then we make a decision in our mind to do it or to not do it. Have you ever did the wrong thing? I have. It was my choice and it was my sin and I own it.

Doing the wrong thing and then coming out with, the devil made me do it...is so far fetched that it's almost laughable. A free will which seeks God it's creator to serve Him and thank Him out of our own heart and that follows Him to be one with Him...In Christ and Christ in us, is what God is seeking from us. For us to find Him through our free will.
 

Quantrill

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Oh I see. You've differentiated will and free will, my bad. Ok Now I understand your post. But it seems incredulous that mankind does not possess a free will.

Let me ask you this, If mankind does not have free will, then what's the point to God creating us and earth at all? If we really didn't sin because it was evil spirits forcing us into evil...and those times that we do good deeds for our neighbors, it wasn't really us or out of the goodness of our heart because it was God's Spirit doing it, then none of those things whether good or evil could be accountable to us. You see the quandary?

We have to make decisions and actions. We exercise our free will at least 100 times per day. We all have multiple voices within us. Good and bad. You have a conscience, so do I. Anyone can have a thought to commit a sin and having that thought is not a sin. It's usually then that the conscience speaks up and says, man don't do that, do the right thing. Then we make a decision in our mind to do it or to not do it. Have you ever did the wrong thing? I have. It was my choice and it was my sin and I own it.

Doing the wrong thing and then coming out with, the devil made me do it...is so far fetched that it's almost laughable. A free will which seeks God it's creator to serve Him and thank Him out of our own heart and that follows Him to be one with Him...In Christ and Christ in us, is what God is seeking from us. For us to find Him through our free will.
I am not saying we are not responsible for our decisions. We have a will. But our will is always affected by outside pressure and coercion. And many times we make decisions we don't want to but have to. Our will is exercised, but it was forced upon us. It is not free.

Example: A man in a boat on a lake with his two children. Boy and girl. None have life vests on. They are going some 15 to 20 miles an hour and hit a partial submerged log flipping the boat. The man can swim but the children can't. The children are thrown far apart from each other with the father in the middle. Both children are drowning and calling for help. The father can only save one as he can't swim to one and get back in time for the other. Who does he choose to save?

He must choose one. But that is not free will. That is will. Only God has free will.

Quantrill
 

Edward

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I am not saying we are not responsible for our decisions. We have a will. But our will is always affected by outside pressure and coercion. And many times we make decisions we don't want to but have to. Our will is exercised, but it was forced upon us. It is not free.

Example: A man in a boat on a lake with his two children. Boy and girl. None have life vests on. They are going some 15 to 20 miles an hour and hit a partial submerged log flipping the boat. The man can swim but the children can't. The children are thrown far apart from each other with the father in the middle. Both children are drowning and calling for help. The father can only save one as he can't swim to one and get back in time for the other. Who does he choose to save?

He must choose one. But that is not free will. That is will. Only God has free will.

Quantrill
That's sort of a poor analogy, you got a different one. Because in a sudden emergency like you outline the correct response is to just start swimming and to pray. Praying in such circumstances gets miraculous results more often than you may realize. This is also how the Lord desires for us to be, to ask for His help. These are the last days and in case you haven't noticed...God is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh and there are myriads of new testimonies every day of divine intervention. YouTube is full of them!

He will not leave us or forsake us. I have quite a few testimonies myself that I have shared on here, so how many would you like to hear? The point is, I expect results when I pray. When one prays during such a grave circumstance, his emotions and his heart agree at the time of prayer and that is a big key of how to pray and get results. It's a single minded prayer with no wavering. That's why we hear stories of petite women lifting up a car off of their pinned child, and do it. And also, praying to God has never been an obligation. It is a privilege and only happens when we exercise our free will to do so.
 

Quantrill

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That's sort of a poor analogy, you got a different one. Because in a sudden emergency like you outline the correct response is to just start swimming and to pray. Praying in such circumstances gets miraculous results more often than you may realize. This is also how the Lord desires for us to be, to ask for His help. These are the last days and in case you haven't noticed...God is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh and there are myriads of new testimonies every day of divine intervention. YouTube is full of them!

He will not leave us or forsake us. I have quite a few testimonies myself that I have shared on here, so how many would you like to hear? The point is, I expect results when I pray. When one prays during such a grave circumstance, his emotions and his heart agree at the time of prayer and that is a big key of how to pray and get results. It's a single minded prayer with no wavering. That's why we hear stories of petite women lifting up a car off of their pinned child, and do it. And also, praying to God has never been an obligation. It is a privilege and only happens when we exercise our free will to do so.
I don't need a different one as your response proves.

Oh, so concerning the scenario I gave, if it were you, you would just tread water and pray? You wouldn't try and save either one?

Again, which one would you save, the boy or girl?

Quantrill
 

Edward

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I don't need a different one as your response proves.

Oh, so concerning the scenario I gave, if it were you, you would just tread water and pray? You wouldn't try and save either one?

Again, which one would you save, the boy or girl?

Quantrill
I didn't say tread water. I said, start swimming and pray. My inclination would be towards the one I perceived to be closer to me.
 

Quantrill

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I didn't say tread water. I said, start swimming and pray. My inclination would be towards the one I perceived to be closer to me.
Your 'inclination' doesn't matter. You can only save one. Which one will you save. What is your will?

Quantrill
 

Edward

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Your 'inclination' doesn't matter. You can only save one. Which one will you save. What is your will?

Quantrill
I told you. The close one first and praying and having faith in God to save the other. So my inclination to pray to God stands and does matter. Have you no faith in God? Ye have not because you ask not. So I would ask and believe. Don't you believe in miracles? Do you believe that God could save both kids?
 

Quantrill

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I told you. The close one first and praying and having faith in God to save the other. So my inclination to pray to God stands and does matter. Have you no faith in God? Ye have not because you ask not. So I would ask and believe. Don't you believe in miracles? Do you believe that God could save both kids?
There is no closest in the scenario. That God can provide a miracle is not the point. The point is your will is to save one over the other. You chose to save one over the other. Which one? The boy or girl? What is your 'free' will?

Quantrill
 

Edward

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There is no closest in the scenario. That God can provide a miracle is not the point. The point is your will is to save one over the other. You chose to save one over the other. Which one? The boy or girl? What is your 'free' will?

Quantrill
That God can provide a miracle is exactly the point. You can not take God out of the equation. Both of my kids lives are in danger...and you would take God out of the equation. Umm, no.
 

Quantrill

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That God can provide a miracle is exactly the point. You can not take God out of the equation. Both of my kids lives are in danger...and you would take God out of the equation. Umm, no.
See...no 'free will'. Our will is not free. Outside forces push against our will. At times force our will to do what we don't want to do. Only God has free will.

Quantrill
 

Edward

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See...no 'free will'. Our will is not free. Outside forces push against our will. At times force our will to do what we don't want to do. Only God has free will.

Quantrill
How in the world could you get to that conclusion from this? It is a free will choice to not take God out of the equation.

Story. A long time ago, I was about where you are in my walk and I asked some guy basically the same question you asked about saving the kids. He answered that you save yourself because you can make more kids. :rolleyes

Now then, I could be that guy if I chose to. But I do not have to be that guy. I can choose to not be that guy. To understand that life (God) deals us impossible circumstances sometimes. God allows these things so we might become desperate and turn to Him, crying out for help.

Scripture tells us plainly that the Lord God is not slack in His promises. But it may seem like a spooky thing to put dire circumstances into the hands of an unseen entity, even many professing Christians. So many, including you would seem to lean towards taking the circumstances upon themselves and dealing with the circumstance on their own, and the way you describe your scenario one of the children will die. Scripture says, Ye have not because you ask not.

Hear wisdom Brother...Life is 10% what it deals you in the cards and 90% how you react to it. So if you do not seek first the Kingdom of God, you would be disallowing the Kingdom of God to intervene on your behalf in situations wherein you need some help.

If you want to experience divine intervention and witness the miraculous, then you have to get out of the boat. Remember in scripture when Peter got out of the boat and walked on water? That was only possible because he got out of the boat. Sure, he seen the big waves and started to sink, freaked out and said Lord save me!...and the Lord did save him. Peter asked, Peter received.

That's how this planet works Brother. He put us here with free will and He most certainly will not violate our free will. So if you choose to save one child on your own God will let you do that. Or you can simply pray Him and He will jump at the chance to bless you and save everyone involved. It's your choice. Your free will.
 
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Mr John MacArthur was complaining about the gov't shutting down religious services in various states. To which Mr MacArthur wrote "As His people, we are subject to His will and commands as revealed in Scripture,”...... “Therefore we cannot and will not acquiesce to a government-imposed moratorium on our weekly congregational worship or other regular corporate gatherings. Compliance would be disobedience to our Lord’s clear commands.”


If what God foreknows means God foreordained then God must have foreknown therefore ordained the gov't to shut down religious services. Is Mr MacArthur then fighting against God and what God has ordained/determined?
 
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