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Are all people infected by sin?

MarkT

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"If you have a spiritual mind"????
Are you suggesting that you DO have a "spiritual mind" but that Spencer and I do not?
If so, that attitude of superiority would be a rather arrogant stance for someone to assume.
But, I may have misunderstood you.
That's a good one; attack the person. Obviously you still don't understand.
 

ezra

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You can't choose to harden your heart. And your heart does not get harder. That's ridiculous. Nowhere does it say your heart gets harder. What are you doing adding verses together like it's a mathematical equation? Might as well say pharaoh's heart was hardened ten times (ten plagues) so it was ten times harder.
i fully understand where your coming from your reformed doctrine.. personally i do not agree .but scripture plainly says he hardened his heart .in fact scripture tells us Hebrews 3:15
while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." God will send strong delusions God will turn us over to a reprobate mind if we keep rejecting him.. that is Bible
 

Jim Parker

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You can't choose to harden your heart. And your heart does not get harder.
Says who?
So when God hardened Pharaoh's heart it didn't get harder?
Nowhere does it say your heart gets harder.
No where does it say that there are Manatees and Kangaroos. Does that mean they don't exist?
Might as well say pharaoh's heart was hardened ten times (ten plagues) so it was ten times harder.
I posted you the scriptures that said Pharaoh hardened his heart twice and then God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Now you're telling me that it's impossible.

I think we're done here.
 

Jim Parker

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That's a good one; attack the person. Obviously you still don't understand.
It was you who suggested that you had a "spiritual mind" but others didn't.
IS that what you meant of not.

Actually, never mind.
 

OzSpen

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Depends on your perspective. If you have a spiritual mind, the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. If you have a human mind, Pharaoh hardened his heart. Take a look at EX. 9:34 - 10:2 Both expressions are used to say the same thing referring to the same event. ie. Pharaoh sinned again, and he hardened his heart. Then the LORD said to Moses "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart.
Mark,

I provided you with the biblical evidence that Pharaoh hardened his heart but you've ignored those verses to place me in the camp of, 'If you have a human mind, Pharaoh hardened his heart' and not in the camp of those with 'a spiritual mind'.

It has everything to do with having a renewed mind that is guided by the biblical text.

I'm not inventing the idea that Pharaoh hardened his heart. It's right there in the text of Exodus.

Oz
 

MarkT

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i fully understand where your coming from your reformed doctrine.. personally i do not agree .but scripture plainly says he hardened his heart .in fact scripture tells us Hebrews 3:15
while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." God will send strong delusions God will turn us over to a reprobate mind if we keep rejecting him.. that is Bible
Hi Ezra

First I have to correct myself. You can harden your heart; like if someone asks you for money and you walk on by. Or you see someone in need and you walk on by. Can you harden your heart to the word of God? I guess it can happen. We would call it falling away. But I'm sure of better things for us who believe as long as we have his Spirit.

Yes he did, but the LORD had something to do with it.

I have to look up reformed theology; just saw a little video.
 
Last edited:

OzSpen

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You can't choose to harden your heart. And your heart does not get harder. That's ridiculous. Nowhere does it say your heart gets harder. What are you doing adding verses together like it's a mathematical equation? Might as well say pharaoh's heart was hardened ten times (ten plagues) so it was ten times harder.
MarkT,

In Scripture, this hardening of the heart by the person is called apostasy. See these verses.

Oz
 

Jim Parker

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MarkT,

In Scripture, this hardening of the heart by the person is called apostasy. See these verses.

Oz
That's the facts.
But you have to want to know the facts in order to understand the facts.
Some folks harden their hearts against facts that don't match their opinions.
I see it all too often.
 

ezra

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Hi Ezra

First I have to correct myself. You can harden your heart; like if someone asks you for money and you walk on by. Or you see someone in need and you walk on by. Can you harden your heart to the word of God? I guess it can happen. We would call it falling away. But I'm sure of better things for us who believe as long as we have his Spirit.

Yes he did, but the LORD had something to do with it.

I have to look up reformed theology; just saw a little video.
every scripture and every answer you gave points towards reformed know your saying you guess you can
 

OzSpen

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That's the facts.
But you have to want to know the facts in order to understand the facts.
Some folks harden their hearts against facts that don't match their opinions.
I see it all too often.
Jim,

Like the reading of any document, I'm convinced the meaning needs to come out of the text.

Also, I am aware that all of us have biases that we take to reading documents, including the Bible. That's why I need people around me and online who challenge my alleged biases so I provide better evidence.

I have addressed some of the issues in my article: ‘As for me, I have come to Scripture with a totally bias-free approach’.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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That's the facts.
But you have to want to know the facts in order to understand the facts.
Some folks harden their hearts against facts that don't match their opinions.
I see it all too often.
Jim,

In my devotions this morning, I read these verses:

41 But Moses said, “Why are you now disobeying the Lord’s orders to return to the wilderness? It won’t work. 42 Do not go up into the land now. You will only be crushed by your enemies because the Lord is not with you. 43 When you face the Amalekites and Canaanites in battle, you will be slaughtered. The Lord will abandon you because you have abandoned the Lord" (Num 14:41-43 NLT).​

The principle is: If we abandon the Lord, he will abandon us. If we harden our hearts, the Lord also will harden them. If we commit apostasy (defection from the faith; unpardonable rebellion against the Lord), the Lord abandons that person.

Human responsibility accompanies God's sovereign action.

Oz
 

Jim Parker

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Like the reading of any document, I'm convinced the meaning needs to come out of the text.
If people would only do 2 things:
(1) Actually read it.
(2) Don't decide what it is going to say before you read it and then just scan it.

jim
 

MarkT

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Mark,

I provided you with the biblical evidence that Pharaoh hardened his heart but you've ignored those verses to place me in the camp of, 'If you have a human mind, Pharaoh hardened his heart' and not in the camp of those with 'a spiritual mind'.

It has everything to do with having a renewed mind that is guided by the biblical text.

I'm not inventing the idea that Pharaoh hardened his heart. It's right there in the text of Exodus.

Oz
Basically Pharaoh said NO to Moses. That's what 'he hardened his heart' means. It means he said NO. But that's what the LORD wanted him to do. Indeed the LORD willed it. Ex. 4:21 'I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.'

In other words, Pharaoh did what the LORD willed him to do. It was the LORD's will that Pharaoh should harden his heart.

So you're making a false distinction in the text. There's no difference in saying Pharaoh hardened his heart and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.

So, yes, Pharaoh hardened his heart, but the LORD had something to do with it.
 

OzSpen

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Basically Pharaoh said NO to Moses. That's what 'he hardened his heart' means. It means he said NO. But that's what the LORD wanted him to do. Indeed the LORD willed it. Ex. 4:21 'I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.'

In other words, Pharaoh did what the LORD willed him to do. It was the LORD's will that Pharaoh should harden his heart.

So you're making a false distinction in the text. There's no difference in saying Pharaoh hardened his heart and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.

So, yes, Pharaoh hardened his heart, but the LORD had something to do
with it.
Ah well! :wall
 

MarkT

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I know. I get the same feeling.

Nevertheless

By definition a hard heart is an unbelieving heart; a heart that does not understand, a heart that will not listen. So Moses turned the waters of Egypt into blood, but that wasn't enough to make Pharaoh believe. Pharaoh didn't lay it to heart. So Moses sent another plague. Again Pharaoh would not listen to Moses and he would not acknowledge the LORD. Several plagues later Pharaoh acknowledges he was wrong and the LORD was right. But then he sins again. He doesn't let the people go.
Exodus 9:34
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Exodus 10:16
Then Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron in haste, and said, “I have sinned against the Lord your God, and against you.

The point is Pharaoh's heart did not get harder each time Moses said 'Let my people go". The point is that even though the LORD showed him miracles and wonders, Pharaoh would not believe.

The interesting thing is Pharaoh agreed to let the people go several times, but the LORD would not let him believe. So after Moses lifted the plague Pharaoh hardened his heart.

By the way. I know you are not going to agree because the doctrine of freewill makes Pharaoh responsible for not believing Moses.
 

WIP

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Guys, some of the posts have been getting a bit on the personal side. Please stick to discussing the topic without any personal characterizations or accusations. Those only feed more and then the discussions begin to cause division. Let's respect that each has their own understanding and we are not going to change it. The Holy Spirit will do that. We just need to present the information that will invoke further study and meditation.
 

MarkT

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Like I said, you have to have a spiritual mind. "As the LORD said" reminds us of what the LORD said. To say Pharaoh hardened his own heart is to deny the LORD, and it doesn't give him glory.
 

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