Are there contradictions in the Bible?

[seekandlisten]

OK, Long post alert, but I thought I would address those three points you felt (and I agree) would be more substantial conflicts if they contradicted.

Great post! I just look at it a little different that's all.


#8 - Are we accountable for the sins of our fathers or not? Isaiah 14:21/Deuteronomy 24:16

I think you find it fairly clear in the Bible that one is accountable for their own sins. I kind of think its like the parable of talents. I'm assuming you, like the majority of Christians I think, view yourself as a spirit in a body right? If this is the case then one is given a body(talent) on a time frame, one's lifetime, and when this body is 'collected', what one did with their talent will be the question and what one did with their life will be what is judged.


#7 - Was Mary impregnated by a human or a ghost/spirit? Acts 2:30/Matthew 1:18

I think Mary became pregnant the same way everyone else in the world did.

Mary was a descendant of David’s as well as Joseph.

There are a few problems with that belief some scholars argue. For starters, the text in Luke makes no mention of Mary, but does mention Joseph. In Luke there is another contradiction/error. According to 2 Samuel 12:7 and 1 Chronicles 28:4-10, the messianic line is supposed to run through Solomon but Luke has Jesus descending through Nathan.

There is also the interesting problem in Matthews version that has the geneology traced through Jeconiah who, according to Jeremiah 22:30 (Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.") says that his children would not sit on the throne of David.

Most scholars (at least the one’s who hold God’s word to be inerrant) believe that Luke is recording Mary’s linage, while Matthew records Joseph linage.

Hmmm . . . . Luke 3 "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli . . . ."

It states Jesus the son Joseph the son of Heli, the son of etc, etc. How does Mary become a part of this lineage?

Joseph would be the ultimate son in either linage, just that he was more technically Heli’s son-in-law rather than his birth son.

How does Joseph become Heli's son-in-law?

Keep in mind that even today, Jewish heritage is traced through the mother.

I did not know this, I'll have to look into it a little more.


3 - Is Jesus equal to or lesser than the Father?
John 10:30 - "I and the Father are ONE."
John 14:28 - "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

I simply don't believe that Jesus is 'God'. I believe he was a man like the rest of us. Just like it says in the Bible that 'we will be one with the Father, just as Jesus was one with the Father' so I think is what is being referred here.

I've got a couple more 'contradictions' I'll try and get for you in the next day or so. I'm interested in hearing your answers.

cheers

 

[smaller]

Well, no one picked up the blatant contradiction that God is not the Author of confusion, YET confused the languages of the people at the tower of Babel.

So, here is another one:

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Did James make a gaffe?

s

 

[rstrats]

Pard,

You still have a couple of questions directed to you in post #76.

 

[coffeeelover]

Well, no one picked up the blatant contradiction that God is not the Author of confusion, YET confused the languages of the people at the tower of Babel.

So, here is another one:

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Did James make a gaffe?

s

They are contradicting, but it only matters if you think the bible has to be taken literaly.

 

[renassault]

All my life I have been told, and believed that the Bible is the word of God and that it contained no contradictions yet recently an atheist friend of mine told me to read the first two chapters of Genesis and to take special note that the order of creation in chapter one is different from the order in chapter two. I assumed he was wrong until I read it and sure enough, in Genesis chapter one, the animals were created before man and then in Genesis chapter 2 it's the other way around. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is this a contradiction or is there more information that I should be aware of?

Genesis 2:4b talks about creation in the Garden of Eden, not the whole world. Chapter 2 implies (a little) that the animals already existed, and God created each kind for Adam to name, so that Adam did not have to go travelling the seven seas to find them all and name them.

 

[Elijah674]

All my life I have been told, and believed that the Bible is the word of God and that it contained no contradictions yet recently an atheist friend of mine told me to read the first two chapters of Genesis and to take special note that the order of creation in chapter one is different from the order in chapter two. I assumed he was wrong until I read it and sure enough, in Genesis chapter one, the animals were created before man and then in Genesis chapter 2 it's the other way around. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is this a contradiction or is there more information that I should be aware of?

Hi, you seem to be a sincere person! Let me just first give my belief of all 66 books. If you want to read Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16 + 2 Peter 1:20-21, that is it.

OK: Now lets just think why we have what is called four Gospels that are not exactly alike?? Would they not be if they were [PENNED BY JUST THE HOLY SPIRIT]? Lets just say that four of us wrote about one subject. (DOCTRINE) And say that we were also Inspired to [PEN] it as we got the Inspired Vision or picture... [AND UNDER OATH, HUH!]

Try it! Have four sincere Christians pass around a picture of a burnning world. Now have each pen what they think is the best Inspired description of that. Then we need to see 'us' get involved? Are the four pictures alike? And when we get the true meaning, (if we do? Rom. :14) Would we get it by just one picture, or would we do better by the study of them all? (see Isa. 28:9-10)
And remember that we did not see the pictures befor hand.

So NO, the Holy Spirit Inspired all of the 66 Books except the Ten Commandments that God Himself wrote. (see Isa, 8:20 Two Part Testing)
And each Inspired Bible writer penned it in his own discriptive words as he honestly viewed it. So there are no honest contradictions, yet we need the tolal picture to get the total truth.

I hope that this helps?

--Elijah

 

[cyberjosh]

There are so many 'surface' contradictions in the text I cannot begin to account them all, so will insert here one of my favorite contradictions.

James tells us that God is NOT The Author of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

yet...we find at the Tower of Babel, that God DID confuse/confound the language of the people.

Genesis 11
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

You are taking things not only out of context, but also out of their historical relation with one another (or lack thereof). In 1 Corinthians 14 the immediate context is prophecy, and describes how genuine spiritual conduct is manifested to others in the Church, "all the churches of the saints".

The preceding verses say this:

"31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

This is describing a matter of spiritual discernment and behavior in prophetic utterances. It is in prophecy that God is not the author of confusion, not speaking false words to his people nor allowing prophets to babble unrestrained and unaccountable. It is a spiritual matter being discussed. However God confusing men, especially wicked men, is commonplace in the Old Testament and is a justified judgment from God upon them.

One example is when the Ammonites and Moabites came against Jehosaphat and God confused their armies so that Israel's enemies killed each other (excerpt from NASB):

Enemies Destroy Themselves

20They rose early in the morning and went out to the wilderness of Tekoa; and when they went out, Jehoshaphat stood and said, "Listen to me, O Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, put your trust in the LORD your God and you will be established. Put your trust in His prophets and succeed."

21When he had consulted with the people, he appointed those who sang to the LORD and those who praised Him in holy attire, as they went out before the army and said, "(Give thanks to the LORD, for His lovingkindness is everlasting."
22When they began singing and praising, the LORD set ambushes against the sons of Ammon, Moab and Mount Seir, who had come against Judah; so they were routed.
23For the sons of Ammon and Moab rose up against the inhabitants of Mount Seir destroying them completely; and when they had finished with the inhabitants of Seir, they helped to destroy one another.
24When Judah came to the lookout of the wilderness, they looked toward the multitude, and behold, they were corpses lying on the ground, and no one had escaped. 25When Jehoshaphat and his people came to take their spoil, they found much among them, including goods, garments and valuable things which they took for themselves, more than they could carry. And they were three days taking the spoil because there was so much.

God also did this for Gideon in Judges 7 against the Midianites:

22When they blew 300 trumpets, the LORD set the sword of one against another even throughout the whole army; and the army fled as far as Beth-shittah toward Zererah, as far as the edge of Abel-meholah, by Tabbath.
23The men of Israel were summoned from Naphtali and Asher and all Manasseh, and they pursued Midian.

This happened again when Saul was fighting the Philistines:

20Then Saul and all the people who were with him rallied and came to the battle; and behold, every man's sword was against his fellow, and there was very great confusion.

And God also allowed Elisha to confuse the marauding Arameans after he supernaturally blinded them: 2 Kings 6:17-23.

As you can see, God regularly confuses his enemies, especially in battle, and God confusing the tongues of the people at the Tower of Babel is not that much different. At any rate, it has little to do with the lack of confusion mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14 about spiritual peace & order when it comes to prophetic utterances of the spirit. The context must always be examined for intent and meaning. When you do that you will find that many things are not as contradictory as they seem.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[smaller]

They are contradicting, but it only matters if you think the bible has to be taken literaly.

The understandings I use involve both literalism (I believe the depictions in the text are factual physical accounts) and figurative/allegorical. The Word is Spirit and must be understood through figures and types because Word does deal with invisible matters such as love, evil and various powers and workings that transpire behind the physical veil.

s

 

[smaller]

You are taking things not only out of context, but also out of their historical relation with one another (or lack thereof). In 1 Corinthians 14 the immediate context is prophecy, and describes how genuine spiritual conduct is manifested to others in the Church, "all the churches of the saints".

So, you would agree that God is both the Author of confusion and not the Author of confusion simultaneously? Your statement seems to indicate that God deals differently with 'church membership' and those on the outside?

This is describing a matter of spiritual discernment and behavior in prophetic utterances. It is in prophecy that God is not the author of confusion, not speaking false words to his people nor allowing prophets to babble unrestrained and unaccountable. It is a spiritual matter being discussed. However God confusing men, especially wicked men, is commonplace in the Old Testament and is a justified judgment from God upon them.

I would generally agree with your statement as it is a fact. Retributive evil and Gods mingling with evil intentions of mankind is a fact, and I would say not just with those outside the churches, but with evil intentions within the churches as well.

One example is when the Ammonites and Moabites came against Jehosaphat and God confused their armies so that Israel's enemies killed each other (excerpt from NASB):

Indeed. Confusion is a weapon of God uses against His enemies in 'battle.'

God also did this for Gideon in Judges 7 against the Midianites:

Ditto.

This happened again when Saul was fighting the Philistines:

Ditto again. See how easy this is?

And God also allowed Elisha to confuse the marauding Arameans after he supernaturally blinded them: 2 Kings 6:17-23.

Yes again!

As you can see, God regularly confuses his enemies, especially in battle, and God confusing the tongues of the people at the Tower of Babel is not that much different. At any rate, it has little to do with the lack of confusion mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14 about spiritual peace & order when it comes to prophetic utterances of the spirit. The context must always be examined for intent and meaning. When you do that you will find that many things are not as contradictory as they seem.

Indeed. God does deal sometimes totally conversely and the final observation being that BOTH positions, Him NOT being the Author of confusion and BEING the Author of confusion are both fully true and fully applicable.

I would apply the same principle above to the workings of God and retributive evil. Some say God can not do evil, but from the O.T. that is obviously NOT the case.

There are several more applications of this basic principle such as God 'tempting' no man, yet tempting Abraham. There are 'reasonings' behind these matters. A similar view can be seen with God seeking to kill Moses. This gets a little more complex if you'd like to take a swing at them?

enjoy!

smaller

 

[cyberjosh]

Hello smaller,

For the record, this is not my first day at the park when it comes to debating whether there are contradictions in the Bible or not. So I guess what I'm really saying is that I know how these things go. I used to do it for years on other forums until I just got exhausted by the utter lack of direction in ANY of the threads (it was free-for-all style), and no one on the opposite side even trying to be remotely reasonable or reach a middle ground. Atheists mostly come to show their entrenchment rather than ask sincere questions. If you are different then I congratulate you and offer my sincere engagement in any future discussions. However I will not engage in any banter over nit-picky scriptural gymnastics.

So, you would agree that God is both the Author of confusion and not the Author of confusion simultaneously? Your statement seems to indicate that God deals differently with 'church membership' and those on the outside?

My point was that Paul said God is not the author of confusion to the body of the saints (the Church) when it came to spiritual matters. The church cannot continue without order, and God did not elect his Church to operate on chaos and confusion.

You are setting both scriptural occurances as if they were both overriding global statements on God's character regardless of the circumstance, when they are not intended to. This does not mean that no statement is ever made about God that is absolute in the Bible, but rather that in some cases the context has to be examined to understand what is really being said. I mean, in answer to your question, the reasoning does play out pretty soundly that God deals differently with those who love and believe in Him (the Church) than He does His hostile enemies. That much is said in the Ten Commandments itself (see here: Exodus 20:5-6). Where does the Bible ever say any different? And if an individual righteous person turns from their wicked ways God faithfully brings them into His Body of believers, and when on the other hand a believer in the Church begins to turn toward wickedness he disciplines them as he would an unbeliever. You can see this vividly in Ezekiel 18. So far nothing you have said poses any theological problem in either Jewish or Christian theology. Perhaps it may seem to present a moral problem to some who dare to question God, but that is mostly a discussion about God's justice (which can be discussed in another thread).

I used all those other verses, which I know you could have used for your argument, and however decided to preemptively show them (because I perfectly understand the argument you are trying to make) to show that there is no contradiction with those verses and what is said in 1 Corinthians by revealing that it is a different (and consistent) theme in the Bible.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Also for the record, I did not mean to make the preceding post sound unduly harsh in any way. I always like reasoning with people, but I found that being straight forward is often much better than beating around the bush for three pages (which I have experienced in other similar threads to this one). Anyway please take my points as they stand and feel free to comment on them. I will do my best to engage your reply sincerely in turn.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[smaller]

Hello smaller,

For the record, this is not my first day at the park when it comes to debating whether there are contradictions in the Bible or not. So I guess what I'm really saying is that I know how these things go. I used to do it for years on other forums until I just got exhausted by the utter lack of direction in ANY of the threads (it was free-for-all style), and no one on the opposite side even trying to be remotely reasonable or reach a middle ground. Atheists mostly come to show their entrenchment rather than ask sincere questions. If you are different then I congratulate you and offer my sincere engagement in any future discussions. However I will not engage in any banter over nit-picky scriptural gymnastics.



My point was that Paul said God is not the author of confusion to the body of the saints (the Church) when it came to spiritual matters. The church cannot continue without order, and God did not elect his Church to operate on chaos and confusion.

You are setting both scriptural occurances as if they were both overriding global statements on God's character regardless of the circumstance, when they are not intended to. This does not mean that no statement is ever made about God that is absolute in the Bible, but rather that in some cases the context has to be examined to understand what is really being said. I mean, in answer to your question, the reasoning does play out pretty soundly that God deals differently with those who love and believe in Him (the Church) than He does His hostile enemies. That much is said in the Ten Commandments itself (see here: Exodus 20:5-6). Where does the Bible ever say any different? And if an individual righteous person turns from their wicked ways God faithfully brings them into His Body of believers, and when on the other hand a believer in the Church begins to turn toward wickedness he disciplines them as he would an unbeliever. You can see this vividly in Ezekiel 18. So far nothing you have said poses any theological problem in either Jewish or Christian theology. Perhaps it may seem to present a moral problem to some who dare to question God, but that is mostly a discussion about God's justice (which can be discussed in another thread).

I used all those other verses, which I know you could have used for your argument, and however decided to preemptively show them (because I perfectly understand the argument you are trying to make) to show that there is no contradiction with those verses and what is said in 1 Corinthians by revealing that it is a different (and consistent) theme in the Bible.

God Bless,

~Josh

Hi Josh

Let's just say this. I do NOT believe in Biblical contradictions. OK?

There are REASONS that these conflicts appear to NATURAL men and there are SPIRITUAL REASONINGS behind same, some of which I have only BRIEFLY touched on.

In short, God deals with the EVIL in mankind CONVERSELY to how He deals with mankind or even the CHURCHes.

I'll leave it at that for now. If you responded to my previous post I'll try and pick it up later. Time for work.

s

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi Josh

Let's just say this. I do NOT believe in Biblical contradictions. OK?

I have to say, that is not obvious from what you've said in previous posts:

"There are so many 'surface' contradictions in the text I cannot begin to account them all, so will insert here one of my favorite contradictions."

"Well, no one picked up the blatant contradiction that God is not the Author of confusion, YET confused the languages of the people at the tower of Babel."

But I will wait till you can make it back so that you can have a chance to explain yourself.

I'll leave it at that for now. If you responded to my previous post I'll try and pick it up later.

What you quoted was my response to your previous post. Maybe you didn't have time to read all of it, but I can wait until you have time to do so.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Indeed. God does deal sometimes totally conversely and the final observation being that BOTH positions, Him NOT being the Author of confusion and BEING the Author of confusion are both fully true and fully applicable.

Taken in light of your recent claim to not believe in scriptural contraditions I think I can agree with this statement if it is meant to affirm that God has both characteristics, cohabiting together within Himself, and are not self-contradictory, opposing, or contrary to God's character in any way. I do affirm that God has both characteristics, but calling it a contradiction is not acceptable because of the contextual definitions and manifestations of those character traits.

P.S. If I misunderstood the intent of your post please correct me, however as I said it was not obvious from what you've said before.

~Josh

 

[smaller]

Taken in light of your recent claim to not believe in scriptural contraditions I think I can agree with this statement if it is meant to affirm that God has both characteristics, cohabiting together within Himself, and are not self-contradictory, opposing, or contrary to God's character in any way. I do affirm that God has both characteristics, but calling it a contradiction is not acceptable because of the contextual definitions and manifestations of those character traits.

The example I gave was twofold. God both IS and IS NOT The Author of confusion. Two converse truths regardless of contextualizing (which I generally do not have to employ to explain why BOTH items are simultaneously true) are in fact BOTH TRUE. That is a very hard concept to grasp for many believers.

A more pronounced example would be Gods creation and uses of EVIL. God can and does create and use evil but IS NOT EVIL in doing so. Many don't seem to be able to grasp that because God IS Greater than EVIL He can use same for HIS PERFECT INTENTIONS, whatever they may be.

But many believers recoil in horror at THIS FACT, not seeing the obvious, that being GOD IS GREATER than the sum of evil, or ever the sum of all things. It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that because HE IS Greater, then the result of such employments will in fact be PERFECT because of HIS HANDS upon same. Just don't ask me how... I will only be able to guess.

P.S. If I misunderstood the intent of your post please correct me, however as I said it was not obvious from what you've said before.

~Josh

I brought certain contradictions to the fore for multiple purposes, one of which is to show the facts of SIMULTANEOUS but OPPOSING positions can and are FULLY TRUE and FULLY APPLICABLE.

In the 'confusion' observation, God does deal with EVIL in 'all' man differently than MAN himself. I see the operation of evil as one of devils. And God is not their 'friend' and they ARE in and with mankind.

For example, when Jesus looked Peter in the face and spoke to SATAN Jesus was in fact speaking to SATAN, not PETER.

Peter remained in the GOOD GRACES of God in Christ, and Satan, the opposite, even though BOTH entities were in the same SURFACE appearing PETER.

This is a very difficult matter, but if we grasp this, both sides of the ledgers of scriptures, both GOOD and BAD can be FULLY APPLICABLE to man in recognition of the EVIL PRESENT with us all that is NOT US as mankind.

Makes the WORD vastly more interesting to read and comprehend in this manner. The same principle can be applied with Gods temptation of Abraham and His desire to KILL MOSES. Both of those men were MORE than they appeared ON THE SURFACE.

dig?

s

 

[cyberjosh]

I understand what you are trying to say now, and if anything I made almost the exact same point. So perhaps we are not in disagreement at all, but rather are using different terminology (but I want to avoid confusion by not suggesting any "contradictions" at all).

On a related note, do you think that your explanation will have any impact though on an atheist who is looking to explain why they seem to find contradictions in the text? How would you approach an atheist seeking answers? And does faith come into the picture?

I'm just interested in your answers to that.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[smaller]

I understand what you are trying to say now, and if anything I made almost the exact same point. So perhaps we are not in disagreement at all, but rather are using different terminology (but I want to avoid confusion by not suggesting any "contradictions" at all).

On a related note, do you think that your explanation will have any impact though on an atheist who is looking to explain why they seem to find contradictions in the text? How would you approach an atheist seeking answers? And does faith come into the picture?

I'm just interested in your answers to that.

God Bless,

~Josh

Personally I've found few 'atheists' who are unbelievers. For the most part if they have a decent grasp of the text they are disenfranchised ex-believers.

Most unbelievers have 'by nature' a very hard time reading the text. I sure did, and I know many very intelligent people who are unbelievers who cannot make heads or tails out of the text, yet alone comprehend contradictions (of which I accept NONE.)

As to 'witnessing' everyone I know at all knows that I believe God loves them. This has been a very effective 'witness' over the decades. That's all they need to know unless and until God decides to LIGHTEN them further. I'm always there to help.

s

 

[Winters Eve]

Many!!! Dont forget the Bible was written by men for a start. The Torah originally was kept through word of mouth who knows what chinese whispers went on?
and everything Jesus preached seems to contradict the very nature of God if you read the new testament then read the old testament in that order you will see what I mean.

Not to say that some of the historical events might be true who knows none of us lived there at the time and witnessed it so no one can really say for sure.