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God is Father to all, ontologically, by virtue of Him being man's Creator. All men are thus God's children in the natural order from the moment of their creation.

This is not true of the supernatural order, however, which requires men to be born again.
I have to agree with this.
But when we speak of God and theology, I believe we do mean in the supernatural realm, or order.

Jesus was speaking to some Jews and said this:

John 8:42-44
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


Although I agree that God created all of us and in that sense we are children of God,,,I don't believe we can speak this way because of the above verse.

We are either following God or following Satan.
I think this should be made clear to unbelievers.
 
God is Father to all, ontologically, by virtue of Him being man's Creator. All men are thus God's children in the natural order from the moment of their creation.

This is not true of the supernatural order, however, which requires men to be born again.
P.S.
How do we know we're born again?
 
P.S.
How do we know we're born again?


In John 3:5, Jesus says two things are required for one to be born again: Water and the Spirit


Christians refer to this ritual whereby one is born again with water and the Spirit as baptism.


Thus, if you have been baptized, you have been born again.
 
I have to agree with this.
But when we speak of God and theology, I believe we do mean in the supernatural realm, or order.

Jesus was speaking to some Jews and said this:

John 8:42-44
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


Although I agree that God created all of us and in that sense we are children of God,,,I don't believe we can speak this way because of the above verse.

We are either following God or following Satan.
I think this should be made clear to unbelievers.

Are you suggesting Jesus taught in John 8 that some people were actually created by the devil?
 
I feel like with Jesus we can be adopted into the Family of God. And this is my hope, as well as many Christian's hope, that God has adopted them and they are His special possession now. Without having any Jewish heritage the hope of being God's adopted child is really part of my Christian lifeblood.

The issue of how do you know is hard because there is conflict. Still in sin and of the world, casting the doubt over anyone who bears their own weaknesses to themselves, there is is also the hope and the promise of Jesus. To believe in Him is all that we need to be saved. Between these two conflicts is a wide set of goal posts for people to stand, from "I am saved by my belief," "saved by obedience showing my belief," "saved by turning away from sin," or even saved by seeing God has rescued me from my life and earlier troubles."

One day we will meet our maker, and hopefully we will be met with love. That is the hope. Until then we have to strive on and persevere in our love and our commitment to God. He loves us, and loves those who are not saved. Therefore love your brothers and sisters, love the sinner and your enemy. Because that's what God has done for us, and we should continue on to reach those who haven't found God, as well as strengthen those who have.
 
Are you suggesting Jesus taught in John 8 that some people were actually created by the devil?
No.
We are the children of the one we serve...
or the slaves of the one we serve.

Jesus said we are children of satan if we follow him.
John 8:44

Romans 6:16
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

As you said in your post, we are all children of God in that He created everyone on earth....but we are not all His Sons.

2 Timothy 2:19
1
9Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

So...some must NOT be His.
 
In John 3:5, Jesus says two things are required for one to be born again: Water and the Spirit


Christians refer to this ritual whereby one is born again with water and the Spirit as baptism.


Thus, if you have been baptized, you have been born again.
I'm going to have to disagree.

When we're baptized, original sin is removed, as per Augustine...not before him.

We receive the Holy Spirit at baptism...
But since the CC baptizes babies,,,it does believe that at some point in that person's life, he has to accept this baptism and serve God.

Baptism ALONE does not make a person be born again ....
born from above.

One priest I know explained it as the Holy Spirit resting in the baby through the age of reason....but at some point the Holy Spirit must be awakened.

This does not even happen at Confirmation.
If you've ever been involved in catechism, you'd know that this is true.
 
I feel like with Jesus we can be adopted into the Family of God. And this is my hope, as well as many Christian's hope, that God has adopted them and they are His special possession now. Without having any Jewish heritage the hope of being God's adopted child is really part of my Christian lifeblood.

The issue of how do you know is hard because there is conflict. Still in sin and of the world, casting the doubt over anyone who bears their own weaknesses to themselves, there is is also the hope and the promise of Jesus. To believe in Him is all that we need to be saved. Between these two conflicts is a wide set of goal posts for people to stand, from "I am saved by my belief," "saved by obedience showing my belief," "saved by turning away from sin," or even saved by seeing God has rescued me from my life and earlier troubles."

One day we will meet our maker, and hopefully we will be met with love. That is the hope. Until then we have to strive on and persevere in our love and our commitment to God. He loves us, and loves those who are not saved. Therefore love your brothers and sisters, love the sinner and your enemy. Because that's what God has done for us, and we should continue on to reach those who haven't found God, as well as strengthen those who have.
Agreed.
But I feel that we can be morally sure...
How about these two reasons:

We can know we are children of God when we learn that we have a spiritual nature and that we look to God to feed that nature.
John 3:3


We can know we are children of God when we desire to please Him,,,which you stated.
John 14:21
 
I'm going to have to disagree.

When we're baptized, original sin is removed, as per Augustine...not before him.

We receive the Holy Spirit at baptism...
But since the CC baptizes babies,,,it does believe that at some point in that person's life, he has to accept this baptism and serve God.

Baptism ALONE does not make a person be born again ....
born from above.

One priest I know explained it as the Holy Spirit resting in the baby through the age of reason....but at some point the Holy Spirit must be awakened.

This does not even happen at Confirmation.
If you've ever been involved in catechism, you'd know that this is true.

What two things does Jesus say are required for a man to be born again?

Also, you need to brush up on your Augustine...

"But the possibility of regeneration through the office rendered by the will of another, when the child is presented to receive the sacred rite, is the work exclusively of the Spirit by whom the child thus presented is regenerated. For it is not written, 'Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents, or by the faith of those presenting the child, or of those administering the ordinance,' but, 'Unless a man be born again of water and of the Spirit.' (John 3:5) By the water, therefore, which holds forth the sacrament of grace in its outward form, and by the Spirit who bestows the benefit of grace in its inward power, cancelling the bond of guilt, and restoring natural goodness [reconcilians bonum naturæ], the man deriving his first birth originally from Adam alone, is regenerated in Christ alone. Now the regenerating Spirit is possessed in common both by the parents who present the child, and by the infant that is presented and is born again; wherefore, in virtue of this participation in the same Spirit, the will of those who present the infant is useful to the child." - St. Augustine, Epistle 98:2 (Letter to Boniface)

"One generation and another generation; the generation by which we are made the faithful, and are born again by baptism; the generation by which we shall rise again from the dead, and shall live with the Angels forever. Your Memorial, O Lord, is above this generation, and above that; for neither does He now forget to call us, nor then will He forget to crown us." - St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 135:11


Baptism ALONE makes a person born again. (This includes a baptism of desire and a baptism of blood.)


As for confirmation, Scripture is clear the laying on of hands is something separate and distinct from baptism. It is done post baptism. In baptism, the Holy Spirit is conferred in an invisible way. When an Apostle (and today, their successors) laid hands on someone already baptized, they were calling down the Holy Spirit in a visible and charismatic way. Thus from the beginning of Christianity, a distinction is made between baptism and the imposition of hands on a person and receiving the Holy Spirit in a more profound way. The most ancient of Christian traditions continue this practice to this day; for after a person is baptized, they are confirmed.
 
What two things does Jesus say are required for a man to be born again?

Also, you need to brush up on your Augustine...

"But the possibility of regeneration through the office rendered by the will of another, when the child is presented to receive the sacred rite, is the work exclusively of the Spirit by whom the child thus presented is regenerated. For it is not written, 'Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents, or by the faith of those presenting the child, or of those administering the ordinance,' but, 'Unless a man be born again of water and of the Spirit.' (John 3:5) By the water, therefore, which holds forth the sacrament of grace in its outward form, and by the Spirit who bestows the benefit of grace in its inward power, cancelling the bond of guilt, and restoring natural goodness [reconcilians bonum naturæ], the man deriving his first birth originally from Adam alone, is regenerated in Christ alone. Now the regenerating Spirit is possessed in common both by the parents who present the child, and by the infant that is presented and is born again; wherefore, in virtue of this participation in the same Spirit, the will of those who present the infant is useful to the child." - St. Augustine, Epistle 98:2 (Letter to Boniface)

"One generation and another generation; the generation by which we are made the faithful, and are born again by baptism; the generation by which we shall rise again from the dead, and shall live with the Angels forever. Your Memorial, O Lord, is above this generation, and above that; for neither does He now forget to call us, nor then will He forget to crown us." - St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 135:11


Baptism ALONE makes a person born again. (This includes a baptism of desire and a baptism of blood.)


As for confirmation, Scripture is clear the laying on of hands is something separate and distinct from baptism. It is done post baptism. In baptism, the Holy Spirit is conferred in an invisible way. When an Apostle (and today, their successors) laid hands on someone already baptized, they were calling down the Holy Spirit in a visible and charismatic way. Thus from the beginning of Christianity, a distinction is made between baptism and the imposition of hands on a person and receiving the Holy Spirit in a more profound way. The most ancient of Christian traditions continue this practice to this day; for after a person is baptized, they are confirmed.
PLEASE don't quote Augustine to me.
Which part of his life are you quoting anyway?
He changed his mind about different doctrine at different times and I'm never sure what he really believed anyway.
I know about all that stuff you posted...
I don't agree with it.

IF a person wants to believe that we are imputed Adam's sin...then babies should be baptized AT BIRTH, before even going home.

I believe we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin...which is different from being IMPUTED with his sin.

The ECF did NOT believe we were born with original sin...it took Augustine to come up with that idea. I don't need to brush up on him....I don't agree with him. I believe he messed up the catholic faith with this O.S. doctrine.

Confirmation is not separate and distinct from baptism.
It's a CONFIRMATION of baptism...it solidifies it. Please don't make me look this up in the CCC...I've taught this.
However, everything you've stated about confirmation is correct....

Problem is ... kids don't know what they're doing at the age of 12 to 14 and the laying on of hands becomes meaningless because they do not willingly accept the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit forces Himself on no one.
I do agree with the baptism of desire and blood, BTW.
(but one has to be an adult for this...).
 
I believe we become a Spiritual child of God in order to see the kingdom of God the moment we confess Jesus as Lord and Savior as we die to self and live for Him, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10. It's at that moment of being Spiritually born again that we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit as we learn to surrender our will as we start walking in obedience to God's will in His commandments set before us.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Read all of chapter three in that which we need to mortify in the flesh.
 
PLEASE don't quote Augustine to me.
Which part of his life are you quoting anyway?
He changed his mind about different doctrine at different times and I'm never sure what he really believed anyway.
I know about all that stuff you posted...
I don't agree with it.

I will QUOTE Augustine anytime you misrepresent him. He, like the Church fathers and ALL of Christianity - until Zwingli came on the scene and said the Apostles and Fathers were actually wrong - taught that it is through the waters of baptism where man is born again.

IF a person wants to believe that we are imputed Adam's sin...then babies should be baptized AT BIRTH, before even going home.

I believe we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin...which is different from being IMPUTED with his sin.

Imputation is a Protestant concept, not a Catholic one. Augustine nor the Catholic Church teach or believe that man is imputed with Adam's sin. The sin of Adam, which we call original sin, is actually a deprivation. This deprivation is a lack of grace, holiness and justice due to the fall of Adam. It is baptism which restores grace and therefore gives man "newness of life" (Romans 6:4).

The ECF did NOT believe we were born with original sin...it took Augustine to come up with that idea. I don't need to brush up on him....I don't agree with him. I believe he messed up the catholic faith with this O.S. doctrine.

Sorry, but the "idea" long preceded St. Augustine...

First Century ---> "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. For until the law sin was in the world; but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come." - St. Paul to the Romans, 5:12-14

Second Century ---> "But this is Adam, if the truth should be told, the first formed man, of whom the Scripture says that the Lord spoke, Let Us make man after Our own image and likeness; (Genesis 1:26) and we are all from him: and as we are from him, therefore have we all inherited his title. But inasmuch as man is saved, it is fitting that he who was created the original man should be saved. For it is too absurd to maintain, that he who was so deeply injured by the enemy, and was the first to suffer captivity, was not rescued by Him who conquered the enemy, but that his children were, — those whom he had begotten in the same captivity." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III:23:2

Third Century ---> "In expressing vexation, contempt, or abhorrence, you have Satan constantly upon your lips; the very same we hold to be the angel of evil, the source of error, the corrupter of the whole world, by whom in the beginning man was entrapped into breaking the commandment of God. And (the man) being given over to death on account of his sin, the entire human race, tainted in their descent from him, were made a channel for transmitting his condemnation." - Tertullian, The Soul's Testimony, 3

---> "The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit." Origin, Commentaries on Romans 5:9

---> "But again, if even to the greatest sinners, and to those who had sinned much against God, when they subsequently believed, remission of sins is granted — and nobody is hindered from baptism and from grace— how much rather ought we to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins— that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another." - St. Cyprian, Epistle 58:5

I can give you tons more if you want up to the time of St. Augustine. It was the regula fidei.


Confirmation is not separate and distinct from baptism.
It's a CONFIRMATION of baptism...it solidifies it. Please don't make me look this up in the CCC...I've taught this.
However, everything you've stated about confirmation is correct....

Problem is ... kids don't know what they're doing at the age of 12 to 14 and the laying on of hands becomes meaningless because they do not willingly accept the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit forces Himself on no one.
I do agree with the baptism of desire and blood, BTW.
(but one has to be an adult for this...).

To the contrary, most certainly confirmation is separate and distinct from baptism; for confirmation is the completion of what we receive at baptism. (It is a separate sacrament, even in the East where it is administered immediately after baptism.) Scripture testifies to the imparting of the Holy Spirit to those who had already been baptized. Here are a couple of examples...

"Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:14-17).

"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:1–2)
 
But do they all end up with Him?
This sounds a little too universalist....
It is written,I did not write the verse. All souls are Mine.
You agree that God created all things, Father of us all ,then turn around and say that sounds too Universalist.

You asked if we were the children of God, so yes, in that sense.

Do they all end up with Him?
Yes, in a sense.
Rom.14:11 and other places
Every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
But
That doesn't mean they have everlasting life.
 
How do you know?
i know i am a child of God for so many reasons -

  • God reached out to me and i accepted and received everything He offered and
  • i believe He is right about everything - i change my mind to agree with Him
  • i ask Him to tell me what to think and help me do what He wants me to do
  • i obey His commands by His power
  • i love His work in my life - His miracles - His strength purity joy peace patience
  • i love His words in the bible - they change my pov and lifestyle
  • He has done so much for me and others - He is amazing
  • if i get busy and don't have enough quiet time talking to God i get feeling unwell
  • God is my source and my life
  • apart from Him i am not happy motivated inspired effective
  • my life goes better when i walk closely with God
  • i love being around others who delight most in God

the longer i walk with God the more i need Him - as the bond gets stronger the less i can function without God - it is a daily walk that needs good company with God lovers and good doses of spiritual food (prayer/the bible) - God is the Author and Perfecter of all of this - i still can't accomplish anything Godly on my own - i still need God's power to do it all -
 
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I will QUOTE Augustine anytime you misrepresent him. He, like the Church fathers and ALL of Christianity - until Zwingli came on the scene and said the Apostles and Fathers were actually wrong - taught that it is through the waters of baptism where man is born again.



Imputation is a Protestant concept, not a Catholic one. Augustine nor the Catholic Church teach or believe that man is imputed with Adam's sin. The sin of Adam, which we call original sin, is actually a deprivation. This deprivation is a lack of grace, holiness and justice due to the fall of Adam. It is baptism which restores grace and therefore gives man "newness of life" (Romans 6:4).



Sorry, but the "idea" long preceded St. Augustine...

First Century ---> "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. For until the law sin was in the world; but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come." - St. Paul to the Romans, 5:12-14

Second Century ---> "But this is Adam, if the truth should be told, the first formed man, of whom the Scripture says that the Lord spoke, Let Us make man after Our own image and likeness; (Genesis 1:26) and we are all from him: and as we are from him, therefore have we all inherited his title. But inasmuch as man is saved, it is fitting that he who was created the original man should be saved. For it is too absurd to maintain, that he who was so deeply injured by the enemy, and was the first to suffer captivity, was not rescued by Him who conquered the enemy, but that his children were, — those whom he had begotten in the same captivity." - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III:23:2

Third Century ---> "In expressing vexation, contempt, or abhorrence, you have Satan constantly upon your lips; the very same we hold to be the angel of evil, the source of error, the corrupter of the whole world, by whom in the beginning man was entrapped into breaking the commandment of God. And (the man) being given over to death on account of his sin, the entire human race, tainted in their descent from him, were made a channel for transmitting his condemnation." - Tertullian, The Soul's Testimony, 3

---> "The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit." Origin, Commentaries on Romans 5:9

---> "But again, if even to the greatest sinners, and to those who had sinned much against God, when they subsequently believed, remission of sins is granted — and nobody is hindered from baptism and from grace— how much rather ought we to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins— that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another." - St. Cyprian, Epistle 58:5

I can give you tons more if you want up to the time of St. Augustine. It was the regula fidei.




To the contrary, most certainly confirmation is separate and distinct from baptism; for confirmation is the completion of what we receive at baptism. (It is a separate sacrament, even in the East where it is administered immediately after baptism.) Scripture testifies to the imparting of the Holy Spirit to those who had already been baptized. Here are a couple of examples...

"Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:14-17).

"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:1–2)


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