Are you prolife or prochoice?

[stray bullet]

[quote="stray bullet":6d2c3][quote="Grace Alone":6d2c3]

Those are very extreme cases that seldom happen. Yes, I know that they do happen and they are complex issues. I'm not trying to belittle the horror and pain of women who are faced with such things, but the fact is that 95% of abortions are "birth control abortions." There are an incomprehensible number of women aborting there children who are not in the situations you listed.

How many women do you know that had abortions?[/quote:6d2c3]

And your point is what, precisely?[/quote:6d2c3]

Well, since you are proclaiming to know why women have abortions, I wonder how many you have known personally that had abortions. I think if you had more life experience on the issue, you wouldn't make such exaggerated and sweeping statements.

 

[Grace Alone]

[quote="Grace Alone":e3a50][quote="stray bullet":e3a50][quote="Grace Alone":e3a50]

Those are very extreme cases that seldom happen. Yes, I know that they do happen and they are complex issues. I'm not trying to belittle the horror and pain of women who are faced with such things, but the fact is that 95% of abortions are "birth control abortions." There are an incomprehensible number of women aborting there children who are not in the situations you listed.

How many women do you know that had abortions?[/quote:e3a50]

And your point is what, precisely?[/quote:e3a50]

Well, since you are proclaiming to know why women have abortions, I wonder how many you have known personally that had abortions. I think if you had more life experience on the issue, you wouldn't make such exaggerated and sweeping statements.[/quote:e3a50]

Sorry, but I was speaking about researched statistics, not my life experience, though I had a couple casual friends in college who had abortions because of an "oops." My best friend also became pregnant at 23 - the baby's father wasn't in the picture and my friend was just beginning her career, yet she put her life on hold to carry the baby and give it up to a loving family.

Me personally, I've never had an abortion and I am not surrounded by women who have, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the morality of abortion and the reasons people have them.

You are attempting to plead with emotions rather than look rationally at the issue.

 

[destiny]

http://www.abortiontv.com/AbortionPictures1.htm
I'm posting this link in all the abortion threads.
I've posted it in current events also.
I think it speaks for itself if you've got the stomach to take a look at it.
It broke my heart.

 

[stray bullet]

Sorry, but I was speaking about researched statistics, not my life experience,

Researched by whom? Who could possibly be interested in whether or not women have abortions for 'birth control'?

Me personally, I've never had an abortion and I am not surrounded by women who have, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the morality of abortion and the reasons people have them.

You are attempting to plead with emotions rather than look rationally at the issue.

I am hardly pleading with emotions. I'm not telling stories, I'm not posting pictures. All I am pointing out is that women have them for different reasons, whenever we make sweeping generalizations, we end up hurting a lot of people without any good resulting from it.

 

[Grace Alone]

[quote="Grace Alone":f5a08]

Sorry, but I was speaking about researched statistics, not my life experience,

Researched by whom? Who could possibly be interested in whether or not women have abortions for 'birth control'?[/quote:f5a08]

I've posted statistics from the Guttmacher Institute previously on this thread.

People who are interested in preserving human life and rights are just a little bit concerned that 3,600 babies are aborted every day. :roll:

Me personally, I've never had an abortion and I am not surrounded by women who have, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the morality of abortion and the reasons people have them.

You are attempting to plead with emotions rather than look rationally at the issue.

I am hardly pleading with emotions. I'm not telling stories, I'm not posting pictures. All I am pointing out is that women have them for different reasons, whenever we make sweeping generalizations, we end up hurting a lot of people without any good resulting from it.

You are appealing to feelings, and skirting the issue.

I am not making sweeping generalizations. Please tell me how I am doing this, if you feel that I am. I'm only referring to information taken from a credible source.

If you would like to discuss the issue, that's fine, let's discuss the issue. But all we are doing here is bickering back and forth, and that's kinda a waste of time.

 

[Relic]

Why I think abortion is NOT a choice.
(This is a true story)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=81892#81892
:

 

[Andre3000]

I chose, "Abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or where there is a legitimate threat to the mother's life. Abortion should never be used as a birth control method or for any other reason."

Oh...wait...was that even up there? :roll:

 

[way2groovy1]

Why I think abortion is NOT a choice.
(This is a true story)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=81892#81892
:

That is a sad story.

 

[way2groovy1]

This really is a dangerous issue.

If it is "outlawed" and abortion is illegal the result will be underground, unlicensed doctors doing the procedure.

Banning abortion means you ban the choice of a woman to do to her body as she sees fit.

Whether or not abortion is morally acceptable is not the governments job.

Do I personally belive in abortion. No.

Do I believe it should be banned and mandated by the government. No.

PRO CHOICE

Why can't a government base it's laws on things that are morally acceptable?

 

[Soma-Sight]

Why can't a government base it's laws on things that are morally acceptable?

Define "moral" for me?

This country is supposed to be a country that separates church from state.

If someone is going to have an abortion than they will have an abortion regardless of whether or not "you" or the "government" approves of it.

It is that simple.

If I want to do anabolic steroids than who are you to say that it is not "moral"?

If I believe that smoking pot brings me closer to God than who are you to say I am not worshipping "morally"?

Both of these cases have to do with my own body and no one elses.

The same is true of abortion.

If I was a girl and decided to abort than guess what?

IT IS MY BODY!!!!

Not yours and not this currupt governments.

AS A HINDU I SAY WE BAN MCDONALDS FROM BUSINESS BECAUSE THEY MURDER MILLIONS OF COWS EVERY YEAR.

Cows are sacred animals to the Hindu yet Christians drive right thru in there minivans and gorge on a nice quarterpounder.

That is morality according to the Hindu, so why dont we adopt it?

Because this country is supposed to separate Church from State thats why.

What is moral for one person (abortion) may not be for another (anti abortion).

If it is your body than you can do whatever you want to it because the only REAL authority you have to answer to is God and not a bunch of hypocritics on there high horses.

 

[Soma-Sight]

When does the soul incarnate into the womb?

At what time?

Scriptural evidence please.

 

[Vic C.]

When does the soul incarnate into the womb?

At what time?

Scriptural evidence please.

Right about sunset on Friday and just between the fourth and sixth commandments. :-? Try reading Psalm 139.

So, from reading your posts on this subject, I see you have decided to beat us up over the fourth commandment but hold such little regard for the commandment that deals with the very sanctity of life itself.

Bravo!!! :roll:

 

[Soma-Sight]

vic,

If you notice what I am writing I said,

I DONT BELIEVE IN ABORTION AND PERSONALLY WOULD NOT DO IT.

Psalm 139 does not say exactly WHEN a soul incarnates into the womb.



1 O LORD , you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD .

5 You hem me in-behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [1] you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17 How precious to [2] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.

19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD ,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.


Where does it say the exact time you become an individual in this text. I dont see it.

I believe that the soul incarnates at around 49 days.

I have my own sources but that is not the point here.

The point here is that under this administration and the patriot act you not only cant do to your body as you please, but can forget about the bill of rights which will be right out the window and people dont even see it.

 

[Soma-Sight]

vic,

By the way.

I dont care a whit if you worship on Sunday. DO IT.

It is not my life and not my walk with God.

Will I debate that it is not Biblical. Yes.

Do I think it cannot be supported sola scripture. Yes.

Will I ever force anyone to worship when I do. NO.

The same is true with abortions because it is NOT MY BODY and NOT MY CHOICE. It is up to the individual to know what is right and wrong.

Not Big Brother and his christian Cronies.

 

[Free]

Soma,

The same is true with abortions because it is NOT MY BODY and NOT MY CHOICE. It is up to the individual to know what is right and wrong.

That's part of the problem though, a lot of people don't know right from wrong anymore. And sometimes those that know what's wrong, do it anyway.

The point here is that under this administration and the patriot act you not only cant do to your body as you please, but can forget about the bill of rights which will be right out the window and people dont even see it.

But you are confusing the issue. The issue is not at all about a woman's body and her right to do with it as she pleases, no one is arguing that. Pro-lifers all believe in one's right to do as they please to their own body. But the fact is, an abortion is doing something to someone else's body; someone who has no say, or no choice.

As has been pointed out with statistics, the vast majority of abortions are those of "convenience." If women don't want to get pregnant, perhaps they should stop having sex. First they are irresponsible, doing what they want with their own bodies. Then they wonder how they could have gotten pregnant, somehow forgetting that they had been involved in the act of procreation. And since the baby will cause a disruption to their lives, they simply get an abortion, once again showing how irresponsible one can be with one's own body.

 

[Soma-Sight]

I think it can be debated as acceptable under 49 days of age.

I agree that partial birth and almost fully develped babies being aborted is some sick stuff.

But banning it wont stop the black market from taking up the slack and doing these abortions.

 

[Vic C.]

I think it can be debated as acceptable under 49 days of age.

I agree that partial birth and almost fully develped babies being aborted is some sick stuff.

But banning it wont stop the black market from taking up the slack and doing these abortions.

Show us where it says the body inherits it's soul at 49 days?

 

[harvestmoon]

ProLife.

It doesn't matter if a baby--not a fetus--a baby is conceived in rape, incest, etc., the baby has a right to life because God is the One Who makes babies. Babies have a right to live and celebrate their 1st birthday.

I know a Christian couple who gave their son a birthday party when he was 1 year old. They were thankful they could have him and wanted to celebrate even though he was too young to know about it.

 

[gospelmidi]

opposed to abortion but not pro-life

I'm anti-murder, but not pro-life. In that area, my conversion is incomplete.

Abortion is murder and forbidden by the fifth commandment.

Euthanasia is murder and forbidden by the fifth commandment, but mercy killing is a gray area to me. In the Terri Schiavo case, it seems to be a gray area to at least one judge. Allowing natural death is permissible, and withholding medical treatment to me is a personal decision. But withholding hydration is just adding torture to murder.

Free-fire zone killing in wartime is unnecessary slaughter of people who may or may not be combatants, usually considered to be murder in modern warfare. However, killing POWs may or may not be murder, depending upon whether it is necessary for mobility to fight and wage war.

In my ignorant opinion, a zygote in a petri dish doesn't merit all the protections of law due a baby after he or she is born. But allowing a live baby to die by withholding nutrition is exactly what happens to zygotes; I can't look the other way and pretend it isn't happening.

All of the above constitute a stance opposing murder.

But to be pro-life is to actively promote procreation and to obey God's first command, "Be fruitful and multiply." This I refuse to obey, because life is hard, the world system is hostile, Islam is growing faster than true Christianity, the moral climate is dark and threatening, full of sin and death and evil, and the atmosphere tends to doom and gloom. Socio-economic mobility is trending downward everywhere, except in slave-labor countries, such as China.

I won't bring children into a world like that, and that is probably why no Christian girl would marry me (end of that discussion). So I'm not pro-life. God be merciful to me, an unrepentant evil-doer.

Trusting Christ alone...

 

[Grace Alone]

Re: opposed to abortion but not pro-life

But to be pro-life is to actively promote procreation and to obey God's first command, "Be fruitful and multiply." This I refuse to obey, because life is hard, the world system is hostile, Islam is growing faster than true Christianity, the moral climate is dark and threatening, full of sin and death and evil, and the atmosphere tends to doom and gloom. Socio-economic mobility is trending downward everywhere, except in slave-labor countries, such as China.

I won't bring children into a world like that, and that is probably why no Christian girl would marry me (end of that discussion). So I'm not pro-life. God be merciful to me, an unrepentant evil-doer.

Trusting Christ alone...

Hi There!

I don't agree with your definition of pro-life. Some pro-lifers oppose birth control, but that is not the norm. To be pro-life is not to believe that we should all be having 10 kids - or any kids for that matter. To be pro-life is to believe that if conception occurs, that new human being is created with value and purpose, and therefore should be given the opportunity for life.

I do understand your concern about bringing children into the world that has gone so crazy. I have that concern myself, but I am entrusting the lives of my future children to the Lord.