Arminian - Total depravity - what is this

[PeterJens]

Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."

Arminians thus wholeheartedly affirm the following definition put forth by Calvinist Charles Ryrie:
“BECAUSE of the effects of the fall, that original relationship of fellowship with God was broken and man’s entire nature was polluted. As a result no one can do anything, even good things, that can gain soteriological merit in God’s sight. Therefore, we may concisely define total depravity as the unmeritoriousness of man before God because of the corruption of original sin.

The concept of total depravity does not mean (1) that depraved people cannot or do not perform actions that are good in either man’s or God’s sight. But no such action can gain favor with God for salvation. Neither does it mean (2) that fallen man has no conscience which judges between good and evil for him. But that conscience has been affected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide. Neither does it mean (3) that people indulge in every form of sin or in any sin to the greatest extent possible.

Positively, total depravity means that the corruption has extended to all aspects of man’s nature, to his entire being; and total depravity means that because of that corruption there is nothing man can do to merit saving favor with God.”

Ryrie, C., Entry for ‘Depravity, Total,’ in Walter A. Elwell, Editor, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (2001: Baker Academic, Grand Rapids, MI, 2nd Edition), p. 337

 

[PeterJens]

Sin a personal experience
How do we make decisions and what is it out God we resist?

The nature of existence itself is the affirmation of our rights and our existence as if the world is actively denying it. So when we see God what is our reaction? Fear, fight or flee. So our very nature is to reject Him as a threat.

And in many ways we are right. One sin or evil deed is worthy of His judgement.
Without communion or knowledge of Him, this will always be our first reaction fear and a desire to fight or flee.

Equally every suggestion He proposes to us, we will filter, question and fit within our
own frame of reference, centred on what we want and how we view the world.

This leads us to rebellion and conflict, innate within our very outlooks.
And if He holds out love and sympathy we will knock His hand out of the way daring
to suggest we need any help, that our way of coping is in some ways flawed.

And if you go deeper you find a hurt lost lonely soul trying to make do in an aggressive
dangerous world. And below this is a loving person, who has given up, and few if any
know and care for this individual.

So how lost are we? Completely. And how easy is it to find the real person within?
The hardest thing possible.

And can we ever truly do things that are good? In reference to the King, never, because all things are inbued with Him, which when done outside Him fail.
But the actions can appear good, and helpful and wholesome.
But if these actions deny the creator and the source of love and life, inevitably they work against the source of all things and fail.

 

[PeterJens]

Description of total depravity sounds like a dry academic statement without explanation.
In essence anything that detracts from the creator is sinful, attempting to declare there is such a thing as that which is outside His universe or influence.

The whole of creation is founded in Him. Nothing exists without His will and blessing, and flows out of His purposes. So if something detracts from this it is lying, and denying its own existence and the debt to the creator that is due.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi PJ,
It's late here and I just read the above.
I think I'd like to compare it to how John Calvin understands total depravity....

Because it sounds very similar.

Total depravity to a calvinist means that man is so tied in bondage to satan that he has no way of becoming unbound on his own...it takes a move of God to get man free.

IOW, God has to first regenerate man and THEN man can WANT God and want to become saved.

Does this sound different to you?
Be back in the a.m.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi PJ,
It's late here and I just read the above.
I think I'd like to compare it to how John Calvin understands total depravity....

Because it sounds very similar.

Total depravity to a calvinist means that man is so tied in bondage to satan that he has no way of becoming unbound on his own...it takes a move of God to get man free.

IOW, God has to first regenerate man and THEN man can WANT God and want to become saved.

Does this sound different to you?
Be back in the a.m.

That is approximately my conclusions.
After studying family psychology and how family dynamics often dictate what we like and how we relate, it makes clear how sinful attitudes and bad approaches repeat generation after generation. It shows also for us to break this chain God has to remake us, help us grow and go through stages that our families were incapable of supplying, which is what has happened to me.

I then am faced with the dilemma, is walking in Christ about full human maturity emotionally and spiritually or just spiritually? Much of what we experience and why we experience it is buried in this emotional background. And when you consider transformation of the soul is about change and not being static and secure, it seems a contradiction a lot of christian expression is static, predictable and secure.

How this relates to total depravity is the answer to the question how lost are we really? And the answer is to me like "the great divorce" C S Lewis puts it, we are like ghosts in the reality of Gods kingdom, not fully there, but the longer we dwell the more real we become. I am now old, yet I am still so young, and have so much still to learn.

What appears to be true is each step is another revelation of a deeper truth which continues to grow and be revealed.

 

[JohnDB]

I'm not sure I follow what is being said here...
16th century English is no longer one of my strengths...I'm way out of practice. I'm not even a fan of Shakespeare.

But I do know that its a lot of conjecture about something that doesn't really help us reach the lost souls out there. And it's also not the Rock upon which the Church was built upon.

Can someone explain why this is even Important enough for discussion?

Especially when a prophet was once quoted as saying something akin to:
On my best behavior day, my most righteous acts are as used menstrual cloths to God...

 

[PeterJens]

I'm not sure I follow what is being said here...
16th century English is no longer one of my strengths...I'm way out of practice. I'm not even a fan of Shakespeare.

But I do know that its a lot of conjecture about something that doesn't really help us reach the lost souls out there. And it's also not the Rock upon which the Church was built upon.

Can someone explain why this is even Important enough for discussion?

Especially when a prophet was once quoted as saying something akin to:
On my best behavior day, my most righteous acts are as used menstrual cloths to God...

Total depravity is an important question.
There are two extremes. Are men so evil they are impossible to save and all they do is wrong, or are men almost ok, with a few minor problems that can be easily sorted out?

The answer to these questions then posses the question as to the walk of obedience and sanctification. How difficult is it to become like Jesus and what can we do daily, hourly to walk this path? If the goal is too vast and too difficult how can anyone be truly saved or are we lost causes where God will just change our fleshly desires and everything will just be ok.

There is a dualistic view, two aspects of life where the evil desires belong to our bodies but we are just pure perfect spirits in Christ. This is a form of gnosticism, which addicts who have a physical dependency will go towards because their hearts desire to be free but the keep returning to their addiction.

There issues are within the christian community and many a sleepless night is spent worrying about its implications. A lot of testimonies are about feeling so shattered by Christs requirements, and coping with failure, not realising this is a life long walk with changes one step at a time. So a theological breakdown of the questions helps us see scripturally the basis of the ideas and how God provides a solution to them.

 

[JohnDB]

Total depravity is an important question.
There are two extremes. Are men so evil they are impossible to save and all they do is wrong, or are men almost ok, with a few minor problems that can be easily sorted out?

If men were capable of saving themselves we really wouldn't need a Savior now would we?
If it weren't possible for a "remnant" (key word here) to have salvation from their sins Jesus wouldn't have showed up.

The answer to these questions then posses the question as to the walk of obedience and sanctification. How difficult is it to become like Jesus and what can we do daily, hourly to walk this path? If the goal is too vast and too difficult how can anyone be truly saved or are we lost causes where God will just change our fleshly desires and everything will just be ok.

Only one Man was ever perfect and they crucified him, belittled him, and made fun of him.
We are never going to be able to get one step away from sinless perfection...
Nor does it mean that we shouldn't try. God grades on the "E" curve. "E" meaning effort...not accomplishments lest anyone should begin bragging about it all. Since God knows our hearts He alone gets to judge. But honest efforts to put away known and obvious sins is the minimum. IOW don't worship idols and stay sexually pure.

There is a dualistic view, two aspects of life where the evil desires belong to our bodies but we are just pure perfect spirits in Christ. This is a form of gnosticism, which addicts who have a physical dependency will go towards because their hearts desire to be free but the keep returning to their addiction.

There issues are within the christian community and many a sleepless night is spent worrying about its implications. A lot of testimonies are about feeling so shattered by Christs requirements, and coping with failure, not realising this is a life long walk with changes one step at a time. So a theological breakdown of the questions helps us see scripturally the basis of the ideas and how God provides a solution to them.

A study of Abimelech in the Old Testament (Genesis) is in order. God didn't want Abimelech to sin and made it so...on the other side in Romans 1-2 it's clear from Paul that God can and will give you over to your sins if you persist. Or God can place a veil over your eyes and you will never find the truth as He did with most of the Jews.

Passion for God...as in an all consuming desire can't be faked. There are four types of soils... meaning four types of people.

Three accepted the Gospel message but only one did anything with it.
Soooo
We live in a concrete and asphalt jungle. The vast majority will reject the gospel.
Of those who ever "warm a pew" only 1/3 will be productive and hard core Christians.

So of course people will waffle all over the place and many will give up their faith. Doesn't matter to me because their behavior doesn't have to affect mine if I don't want it to.

But I will encourage them to do the right things...

 

[Nathan12]

Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."

This is very similar to the Calvinist concept of Total Depravity, both of which are false. Here is what Calvinism says:
"Total Depravity
Man is totally corrupt and dead in his sin so that he cannot
even respond to the gospel unless God sovereignly enables
him, which only happens if he is one of the elect. God not
only must enable the dead sinner, but must sovereignly
regenerate him and give him the gift of faith. In the words of
the Westminster Confession Total Depravity is defined as
follows: “Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost
all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying
salvation; so as a natural man being altogether averse from
that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to
convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”
The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity does not mean
merely that the sinner has no righteousness of his own or
that his heart is depraved. It means also that his will is in
bondage to sin in such a fashion that he is unable to believe
the gospel. Further, it means that he must therefore be born
again before he can believe. Arthur Pink states this doctrine
as follows: “Faith is not the cause of the new birth, but the
consequence of it. This ought not to need arguing. ... Faith is
a spiritual grace, the fruit of the spiritual nature, and because
the unregenerate are spiritually dead--‘dead in trespasses and
sins’--then it follows that faith from them is impossible, for a
dead man cannot believe anything” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 73)..." The Calvinism Debate, Copyright 2006 by David W. Cloud, This edition September 27, 2013 [Free ebook from www.wayoflife.org]

In other words, because of this teaching, it puts regeneration BEFORE repentance and faith, which is the opposite of what the Bible teaches. This turns the Gospel on its head.

 

[PeterJens]

This is very similar to the Calvinist concept of Total Depravity, both of which are false. Here is what Calvinism says:
"Total Depravity
Man is totally corrupt and dead in his sin so that he cannot
even respond to the gospel unless God sovereignly enables
him, which only happens if he is one of the elect. God not
only must enable the dead sinner, but must sovereignly
regenerate him and give him the gift of faith. In the words of
the Westminster Confession Total Depravity is defined as
follows: “Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost
all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying
salvation; so as a natural man being altogether averse from
that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to
convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”
The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity does not mean
merely that the sinner has no righteousness of his own or
that his heart is depraved. It means also that his will is in
bondage to sin in such a fashion that he is unable to believe
the gospel. Further, it means that he must therefore be born
again before he can believe. Arthur Pink states this doctrine
as follows: “Faith is not the cause of the new birth, but the
consequence of it. This ought not to need arguing. ... Faith is
a spiritual grace, the fruit of the spiritual nature, and because
the unregenerate are spiritually dead--‘dead in trespasses and
sins’--then it follows that faith from them is impossible, for a
dead man cannot believe anything” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 73)..." The Calvinism Debate, Copyright 2006 by David W. Cloud, This edition September 27, 2013 [Free ebook from www.wayoflife.org]

In other words, because of this teaching, it puts regeneration BEFORE repentance and faith, which is the opposite of what the Bible teaches. This turns the Gospel on its head.

In other words, because of this teaching, it puts regeneration BEFORE repentance and faith, which is the opposite of what the Bible teaches. This turns the Gospel on its head.

This is an interesting idea, saying what the majority of theologians and believers have concluded is false. It is more helpful to ask the question why have people concluded this?
Look around you at how hard it is even among people who go to church for people to truly believe, and even those who want to, but find there is something that is holding them back.

Maybe there is a better way of expressing the conflict and desire.

 

[Nathan12]

This is an interesting idea, saying what the majority of theologians and believers have concluded is false. It is more helpful to ask the question why have people concluded this?

1. As we know from Scripture, when Christ walked this earth, the majority of theologians were opposed to Him, His teachings, and His disciples. So that is not a measure of anything. Theologians try to complicate that which is simple.

2. The Reformed theologians came out of the Catholic Church, but did not leave all their Catholic baggage completely behind. This concept of Total Depravity originated with Catholic bishop Augustine of Hippo, but his views were not as extreme as those of the Reformers. However they all adopted his ideas and made them extreme. Luther began to promote the idea of the bondage of the will, but Reformed Theology totally ignores the existence of the conscience ("the Law in their hearts"), and that unsaved men not only follow their God-given conscience, but also do righteous deeds (Romans 2).

3. Ultimately every Christian must go directly to the Bible and see what it actually says. So let's take a look at John 1:12,13:
a. But as many as received him...
b. to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
c. even to them that believe on his name:
d. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, e. nor of the will of man, but of God.

When we take this in view of what Paul said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Rom 16:31), the logical sequence is:
a. Believing -- even to them that believe on his name
b. Receiving -- But as many as received him
c. Regeneration -- Which were born...
d. Position in Christ -- ...to them gave he power [authority] to become the sons of God

When one receives Christ, one also receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is after that that one is "born of the Spirit" or "born of God". But Calvinism reverses this because it fits into their theology.

 

[for_his_glory]

How this relates to total depravity is the answer to the question how lost are we really? And the answer is to me like "the great divorce" C S Lewis puts it, we are like ghosts in the reality of Gods kingdom, not fully there, but the longer we dwell the more real we become. I am now old, yet I am still so young, and have so much still to learn.

I can't agree with what CS Lewis says here. We are either completely in the Kingdom of God through Spiritual regeneration that transforms us to the image of Christ by that of God's Holy Spirit, or we are none of His own, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 8:1-25.

All are depraved and fallen short of the glory of God and have fallen from fellowshipping with Him, Romans 3:23. It's by grace alone through faith, which is Christ Jesus that we can reconcile ourselves back to Him as we believe in who He said He is as being "I AM, Ephesians 2:8-10.

Did you know it repented God that He even created man as iniquity filled their hearts and was about to destroy that of what He created, but because of ones man's faith (Noah) God's grace abounded towards all giving everyone a chance to return back to Him, Genesis 6:6-8

 

[Walpole]

In Calvinism, just being alive is itself sinful.

Hence, the God of Calvinism is the author and creator of evil.

 

[Nathan12]

Hence, the God of Calvinism is the author and creator of evil

Just about. The Westminster Confession of Faith makes God responsible for every event on earth, but dodges the ultimate issue of why then He is not responsible for all the sin and evil. But that's what happens when men distort the sovereignty of God.

There is absolutely no conflict between the sovereignty of God and the free will of man, since it is the sovereign God who have men and angels free will. And even after the Fall, all human beings (1) have a conscience, and (2) all can understand the plain and simple Gospel. But faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17) with the Holy Spirit convicting and convincing all men to repent and be converted. "But they have not all obeyed the Gospel" (Rom 10:16).

 

[Walpole]

Just about. The Westminster Confession of Faith makes God responsible for every event on earth, but dodges the ultimate issue of why then He is not responsible for all the sin and evil. But that's what happens when men distort the sovereignty of God.

There is absolutely no conflict between the sovereignty of God and the free will of man, since it is the sovereign God who have men and angels free will. And even after the Fall, all human beings (1) have a conscience, and (2) all can understand the plain and simple Gospel. But faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17) with the Holy Spirit convicting and convincing all men to repent and be converted. "But they have not all obeyed the Gospel" (Rom 10:16).

Preciously. They render God the author and creator of sin, as each time a new life comes into existence, God has thus created and brought new sin into the world.

Furthermore, this theology would render our Blessed Lord having a sin nature as well, as Scripture is explicit Christ shared our same nature (Her 2:14). For if He did not share our exact same nature, then our nature has not been redeemed. Rather, some other nature would have been redeemed.

God bless.

 

[Butch5]

Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."

Arminians thus wholeheartedly affirm the following definition put forth by Calvinist Charles Ryrie:
“BECAUSE of the effects of the fall, that original relationship of fellowship with God was broken and man’s entire nature was polluted. As a result no one can do anything, even good things, that can gain soteriological merit in God’s sight. Therefore, we may concisely define total depravity as the unmeritoriousness of man before God because of the corruption of original sin.

The concept of total depravity does not mean (1) that depraved people cannot or do not perform actions that are good in either man’s or God’s sight. But no such action can gain favor with God for salvation. Neither does it mean (2) that fallen man has no conscience which judges between good and evil for him. But that conscience has been affected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide. Neither does it mean (3) that people indulge in every form of sin or in any sin to the greatest extent possible.

Positively, total depravity means that the corruption has extended to all aspects of man’s nature, to his entire being; and total depravity means that because of that corruption there is nothing man can do to merit saving favor with God.”

Ryrie, C., Entry for ‘Depravity, Total,’ in Walter A. Elwell, Editor, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (2001: Baker Academic, Grand Rapids, MI, 2nd Edition), p. 337

That's where he went wrong. Calvin was wrong on that point.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi PJ,
It's late here and I just read the above.
I think I'd like to compare it to how John Calvin understands total depravity....

Because it sounds very similar.

Total depravity to a calvinist means that man is so tied in bondage to satan that he has no way of becoming unbound on his own...it takes a move of God to get man free.

IOW, God has to first regenerate man and THEN man can WANT God and want to become saved.

Does this sound different to you?
Be back in the a.m.

wondering,

I have addressed Arminius's teaching on total depravity in my article: Do Arminians believe in election and total depravity?

Arminius did promote the doctrine of total depravity. I've given a substantial quote from his Works in that article to demonstrate his view.

It's 8.52pm on this Saturday night. I had better think of some dinner.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I have addressed Arminius's teaching on total depravity in my article: Do Arminians believe in election and total depravity?

Arminius did promote the doctrine of total depravity. I've given a substantial quote from his Works in that article to demonstrate his view.

It's 8.52pm on this Saturday night. I had better think of some dinner.

Oz

I know that those debating Calvinism seem to argue FOR Arminianism. I don't know too much about Arminianism,,,but I will read your link...there's a lot there, I've checked it already.

I do know this about Arminius, and it surely does seem that he did believe in total depravity. I do agree more with him than with John Calvin...I don't agree with anything of John Calvin, actually.

Thanks for the link.....

cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

1. Total Depravity

The basis for Calvin's teaching on predestination is the total and complete sinful nature of humanity.

According to the Calvinist Corner: "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God? The answer is, He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."


Arminianism recognizes the fall of Adam is responsible for man's sinful state, but humanity is not incapable of choosing between good and evil.

2. Unconditional Election

The doctrinal point of Calvinism that many, including Arminius, contend with is the belief that God chooses who he elects to salvation and who he sends to eternal damnation.

Arminianism proposes that the elect are predestined to salvation by exercising their freewill in choosing to follow Christ; referring to this point of doctrine as "conditional election."

According to the Society of Evangelical Arminians,"the Bible teaches that God chooses for salvation those who believe in Jesus Christ and therefore become united to him, making election conditional on faith in Christ."

3. Limited Atonement

In Calvinism, there is no need to atone for the sins of those elected for damnation. Therefore, the atonement provided by Jesus Christ is only applicable to the elect.

Arminianists hold to the belief that God offers Christ's atonement to all humankind.

ALERT: Should 'One Nation Under God' Stay in the Pledge of Allegiance? Vote Now

Arminianism derives this theology from John 3:16 of the Bible (King James Version): "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

4. Irresistible Grace

Calvin taught a literal interpretation of the KJV's John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Calvinists insist this means the "grace of God is irresistible to the elect and they will inevitably be drawn to salvation.”

Arminians teach a theology that proclaims the free will of man allows him to accept or reject God's call and choose for himself salvation or damnation.

5. Perseverance of the Saints

Because the Almighty himself conditions salvation, in Calvinism's view, it is impossible for the elect to "fall away" once God saves them.

The perspective of Arminianism is that when an individual chooses salvation, they may also choose to ignore the "call of the Holy Spirit" by returning to their sinful ways.

"God necessarily cannot ensure the final salvation of anyone because they always have the free choice to turn away from faith," according to Theopedia.

Arminianism proposes man is in control of his eternal destiny and that God has foreseen those who will accept His grace. Calvinism contends God foretells the eternal fate of individuals by his exercising dominion over His creation.

 

[Christ_empowered]

hi. im...torn. honestly, i lean towards TULIP, etc. largely because of my own salvation experience, plus a liberal Presbyterian upbringing.

ok..--all-- mankind is called to repent, believe upon Jesus, and obey God. And yet...only The Elect have been selected, out of the masses of humanity (remember: broad road for most of us) to be provided with what would be needed to obey The Gospel, repent and be saved, etc.

and so...the Calvinist perspective is "It isn't a wonder that so many are lost. It is, rather, a miracle that any are saved." so, I guess its kinda like...be thankful that at least some people end up in Heaven, kiddo. (I used the " " because its a paraphrase from some RC Sproul I read way back when).

as I understand it, as one digs deeper into Covenental Theology (I hope I spelled that correctly...), things get somewhat more complicated.

I think its worth noting that old school Arminian theology did not go for TULIP, obviously, but they did believe that God's --divine foreknowledge-- played a role in salvation. That's an aspect of Arminian thought I have almost never heard, growing up in "The BIble Belt," where we have more Southern Baptist Churches than we do people.

so...I dunno, honestly. clearly, im not a theologian. it seems that whenever one tries to apply a hermeneutic to Scripture, something of the whole is lost. When people abandon their God-given intellectual abilities and try to simply read The Word, without consulting historians, linguists, philosophers, Christian tradition, etc...

the potential is there for much of the power of Scripture to be lost through self-serving and incorrect interpretation, especially in the absence of some sort of authority structure. oh wait...look at modern day Protestantism. LOL. :-(

 

[Nathan12]

Arminius did promote the doctrine of total depravity.

That's correct. When you read the Articles of the Remonstrants (Arminians) their doctrine was almost identical to that of the Calvinists, yet different in some respects.

However this idea of Total Depravity ignores two important Bible truths: (1) that all human beings have a conscience, and therefore the unsaved can actually do righteous deeds (Romans 2) and (2) the Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation, and can bring sinners to the Savior under the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit (Romans 1 and 10).

Because of this idea of Total Depravity, Calvinists put the cart before the horse. They teach that under so-called "Irresistible Grace" God gives the Holy Spirit to the so-called "elect", who are then regenerated, and thus receive the so-called "gift of faith". And all of this is because God has predestined some for salvation, and others for damnation, therefore Christ died only for the "elect". This is all summed up in Five Point Calvinism as TULIP (another gospel).