Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[faithtransforms]

I know that almost all denominations consider the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as being of the devil. That it was for the NT church only. But I would like to share my testimony.

Like every newborn believer, I fell in love with Jesus. I went to church, I prayed, I read my bible. Then 2 months later I got baptised in the Holy Spirit and went from in love to to in love and ON FIRE!!! Not only was I IN LOVE with Jesus, I was now completely ON FIRE! I witnessed to practically everyone who came within 10 feet of me, people got saved by the Holy Spirit through me, and you couldn't pry that bible out of my hand with a crow bar, I read that thing night and day and every break at work. And I understood the Word much more deeply and saw things I had never seen before.

Now I initially spoke with tongues, although I don't much anymore.

But my main point is, I just don't think satan would do something that would cause me to magnify Jesus to everyone I saw, get people saved, make me read my bible at every available moment, and make my love for Jesus even more passionate than it already was. I couldn't STOP praising Him. He became the Love of my Life!

What do you guys think?

 

[Tina]

I know that almost all denominations consider the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as being of the devil.

Not true ! .... Where did you hear that ?
Where in the Bible does it say that speaking in tongues is of the devil ??

Now I initially spoke with tongues, although I don't much anymore.

But my main point is, I just don't think satan would do something that would cause me to magnify Jesus to everyone I saw, get people saved, make me read my bible at every available moment, and make my love for Jesus even more passionate than it already was. I couldn't STOP praising Him. He became the Love of my Life!

What do you guys think?

What makes you think that all these is the result of speaking in tongues only ? ....

 

[faithtransforms]

I don't think all this was a result of the tongues, which is just an outward sign. It was a result of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which most denominations do not believe is for today. They say there is no "second act of grace." You get saved, you get the Holy Spirit and nothing after that. And of course it doesn't say in the bible that speaking in tongues is of the devil, but as far as I know, all mainline denominations except for pentecostals/charismatics believe that people who do it now are doing it of the devil, not of God.

 

[Tina]

They say there is no "second act of grace." You get saved, you get the Holy Spirit and nothing after that.

"Second act of grace" ? .... What's that ? .....

 

[faithtransforms]

They say there is no "second act of grace." You get saved, you get the Holy Spirit and nothing after that.

"Second act of grace" ? .... What's that ? .....

I don't know. Its just something cessationists (people who don't believe that in healing, miracles, tongues are for today) call the baptism in the Holy Ghost. They say there is only one "act of grace", salvation, and that there is nothing further to receive from God, such as the baptism in the Holy Ghost which generally (but not always) occurs some time after the salvation experience.

 

[Dave...]

Faith,

While Pentecostals do recognize that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon our initial faith, they do not recognize that the 'receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit' is the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is what makes that baptism the necessary mechanics, if you will, of the born again experience. Pentecostals believe in what is called the doctrine of subsequence, that's the "second blessing that you spoke of, but one cannot be born again without being placed into (baptised) the Body of Christ, which is what the Baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit does. It's a spiritual baptism.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Also see Colossians 2:11-14, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:26-27 (through faith), Philippians 3:7-11. This is not water baptism.

If you are born again, you got there by being "placed into/immersed/baptised" into union with Christ Jesus, by Jesus Himself as a result of a genuine faith in Him. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the baptism.

There are a few different ways of defining cessationism. The definition usually used in these discussions is an 'all or nothing' argument and doesn't encompass the whole debate. The majority of cessationists believe in "the gifts" absent the sign gifts specific to Israel as a nation.

The list of gifts in scripture are not exhaustive. In other words, this cessationist, along with most others believe in more gifts than most Pentecostals and Charismatics do. What I see in todays Pentecostal and Charismatic churches is people who are trained to only see God in miracles, and, as a result, they then try to turn everything into a miracle when it's not. It's a very superficial faith.

Listen, God mostly answers prayers through providence, meaning thru non miraculous natural means. In short, to say that something is not a miracle is not to say that God didn't do it. We should understand that God's providence has Him in control and governing everything. We know that anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved "gift" from God (1 Corinthians 4:7, John 15:4-5). Our repentance, our faith, our perseverance in faith, etc. We give Him the Glory for all of it because He actually deserves it. He is the source of all that is good because only He is good. We cannot produce anything good by the flesh. A man centered theology hates these things.

I don't believe the 'sign gifts' are valid today for two reasons. One: Nobody is actually doing them per biblical standards. So why argue about something that isn't happening? Of course, to claim a "lesser gift" is in and of itself a form of cessation. Two: God's Word supports me. These sign gifts had specific purposes. None of them are biblically valid today.

Also...

Also, A distinction should be made between the gift of healing, which was healing done through human agency, and healing done directly from God in answer to prayer. This distinction is purposely avoided many times to muddy the waters between the two. They are not the same. Most cessationists do not deny that God heals if it is His will, and sometimes even miraculously, though that be rare. But what we don't believe is that the "gift of healing" is in operation today. All the evidence, both experiencial and biblical backs us up on this.

Perhaps what you're calling the baptism, is actually a filling, which is different. If you have any questions let me know.

 

[Dave...]

Also, tongues is just a sixteenth century term for languages. Here's a link for you to learn about the signifigance of languages in the OT...this will set a propper foundation for you to understand the transition that took place in acts.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/to ... ngues9.htm

You must understand that one of the things that was happening at Pentecost was that God was taking down a road block, if you will, that He Himself had put up in Genesis when He confused their languages and scattered the people. This is why at Pentecost they knew when the apostles spoke in their own language, and they, the listeners heard them speaking in their own language (the listener language), that God removed that road block. This could only happen if God Himself removed it. This was a sign of God's judgment on Israel as a nation (see Romans 11) and part of that judgment was the inclusion of the Gentiles in God's plan. From that point forward, the Gospel was to be preached to all nations and all peoples. God was no longer working through one nation, but all nations and all people.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV

BTW, here is a classic cessationist argument.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/combating_ ... eology.htm

Dave

 

[faithtransforms]

Faith,

While Pentecostals do recognize that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon our initial faith, they do not recognize that the 'receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit' is the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is what makes that baptism the necessary mechanics, if you will, of the born again experience. Pentecostals believe in what is called the doctrine of subsequence, that's the "second blessing that you spoke of, but one cannot be born again without being placed into (baptised) the Body of Christ, which is what the Baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit does. It's a spiritual baptism.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Also see Colossians 2:11-14, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:26-27 (through faith), Philippians 3:7-11. This is not water baptism.

If you are born again, you got there by being "placed into/immersed/baptised" into union with Christ Jesus, by Jesus Himself as a result of a genuine faith in Him. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the baptism.

There are a few different ways of defining cessationism. The definition usually used in these discussions is an 'all or nothing' argument and doesn't encompass the whole debate. The majority of cessationists believe in "the gifts" absent the sign gifts specific to Israel as a nation.

The list of gifts in scripture are not exhaustive. In other words, this cessationist, along with most others believe in more gifts than most Pentecostals and Charismatics do. What I see in todays Pentecostal and Charismatic churches is people who are trained to only see God in miracles, and, as a result, they then try to turn everything into a miracle when it's not. It's a very superficial faith.

Listen, God mostly answers prayers through providence, meaning thru non miraculous natural means. In short, to say that something is not a miracle is not to say that God didn't do it. We should understand that God's providence has Him in control and governing everything. We know that anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved "gift" from God (1 Corinthians 4:7, John 15:4-5). Our repentance, our faith, our perseverance in faith, etc. We give Him the Glory for all of it because He actually deserves it. He is the source of all that is good because only He is good. We cannot produce anything good by the flesh. A man centered theology hates these things.

I don't believe the 'sign gifts' are valid today for two reasons. One: Nobody is actually doing them per biblical standards. So why argue about something that isn't happening? Of course, to claim a "lesser gift" is in and of itself a form of cessation. Two: God's Word supports me. These sign gifts had specific purposes. None of them are biblically valid today.

Also...

Also, A distinction should be made between the gift of healing, which was healing done through human agency, and healing done directly from God in answer to prayer. This distinction is purposely avoided many times to muddy the waters between the two. They are not the same. Most cessationists do not deny that God heals if it is His will, and sometimes even miraculously, though that be rare. But what we don't believe is that the "gift of healing" is in operation today. All the evidence, both experiencial and biblical backs us up on this.

Perhaps what you're calling the baptism, is actually a filling, which is different. If you have any questions let me know.

Yes, I can see your point. Perhaps it is more accurately to be called a filling. But if you're gonna challenge me with scripture, you tell me where it states that the sign gifts aren't for today. Yes, I know of the passage where it says "where there are tongues they shall cease" etc, but that was talking about when "that which is perfect has come" which is our resurrection/and or rapture and final redemption! There is no need for sign gifts in Heaven, but you better believe there is a need for them here on earth!!!

Love is the most excellent way, but there are some people that are so hard hearted, they need a supernatural manifestation see the Light. How anyone could believe that sign gifts are not NEEDED in today's world is totally beyond me!!!

 

[faithtransforms]

Also, tongues is just a sixteenth century term for languages. Here's a link for you to learn about the signifigance of languages in the OT...this will set a propper foundation for you to understand the transition that took place in acts.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/to ... ngues9.htm

You must understand that one of the things that was happening at Pentecost was that God was taking down a road block, if you will, that He Himself had put up in Genesis when He confused their languages and scattered the people. This is why at Pentecost they knew when the apostles spoke in their own language, and they, the listeners heard them speaking in their own language (the listener language), that God removed that road block. This could only happen if God Himself removed it. This was a sign of God's judgment on Israel as a nation (see Romans 11) and part of that judgment was the inclussion of the Gentiles in God's plan. From that point forward, the Gospel was to be preached to all nations and all peoples. God was no longer working through one nation, but all nations and all people.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NKJV

BTW, here is a classic cessationist argument.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/combating_ ... eology.htm

Dave

That does make sense. And I can see your point. But in Mark 16, Jesus said we would speak in NEW tongues and Paul speaks of speaking in the tongues of men and ANGELS.

 

[Dave...]

Yes, I can see your point. Perhaps it is more accurately to be called a filling. But if you're gonna challenge me with scripture, you tell me where it states that the sign gifts aren't for today. Yes, I know of the passage where it says "where there are tongues they shall cease" etc, but that was talking about when "that which is perfect has come" which is our resurrection/and or rapture and final redemption! There is no need for sign gifts in Heaven, but you better believe there is a need for them here on earth!!!

1 Corinthians 14:22. I believe if you read the things I posted you will see that it was Israel who required a sign, and God gave them signs, but not always to their liking. God's judgment for which the sign pointed happened in A.D. 70.

That's about as close to a 'silver bullet' that I can give you. I posted a lot already. The verse posted at the end of this post applies here also. Please carefully consider the implication of that passage in light of our discusion so far. I encourage you to press forward and continue to test all these things in light of God's Word.

Love is the most excellent way, but there are some people that are so hard hearted, they need a supernatural manifestation see the Light. How anyone could believe that sign gifts are not NEEDED in today's world is totally beyond me!!!

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Here's an old thread of mine if you get bored. It's almost too old...lol know what I mean?
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11204

Dave

 

[faithtransforms]

Yes, I can see your point. Perhaps it is more accurately to be called a filling. But if you're gonna challenge me with scripture, you tell me where it states that the sign gifts aren't for today. Yes, I know of the passage where it says "where there are tongues they shall cease" etc, but that was talking about when "that which is perfect has come" which is our resurrection/and or rapture and final redemption! There is no need for sign gifts in Heaven, but you better believe there is a need for them here on earth!!!

1 Corinthians 14:22. I believe if you read the things I posted you will see that it was Israel who required a sign, and God gave them signs, but not always to their liking. God's judgment for which the sign pointed happened in A.D. 70.

That's about as close to a 'silver bullet' that I can give you. I posted a lot already. The verse posted at the end of this post applies here also. Please carefully consider the implication of that passage in light of our discusion so far. I encourage you to press forward and continue to test all these things in light of God's Word.

Love is the most excellent way, but there are some people that are so hard hearted, they need a supernatural manifestation see the Light. How anyone could believe that sign gifts are not NEEDED in today's world is totally beyond me!!!

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Here's an old thread of mine if you get bored.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11204

Dave

The Word says God worked signs and wonders through Paul, and he is the apostle of the Gentiles. Although he did speak to Jews as well. But he definitely worked signs and wonders in preaching the gospel to the gentiles.

Thanks, I may check out that thread sometime

 

[faithtransforms]

And Dave, I mean absolutely no disrespect, you are clearly a knowledgeable man. But if that is all the scripture you can give me to support your position (and it was weak), I would have to say your position is unscriptural. It sounds more like human reasoning and the traditions of men.

 

[Dave...]

The Word says God worked signs and wonders through Paul, and he is the apostle of the Gentiles. Although he did speak to Jews as well. But he definitely worked signs and wonders in preaching the gospel to the gentiles.

Yes, I agree. Paul was an apostle. These were signs of an apostle that you're speaking of (2 Cor 12:12)

 

[Dave...]

And Dave, I mean absolutely no disrespect, you are clearly a knowledgeable man. But if that is all the scripture you can give me to support your position (and it was weak), I would have to say your position is unscriptural. It sounds more like human reasoning and the traditions of men.

Which part is unscriptural, faith? You said that we should be giving signs. I posted this...

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The scripture I gave in reference to "tongues" as a sign, and it's purpose, was the same argument Paul used in chapter 14 of first Corinthians. It's Paul's case, not mine. It was enough for the people of Corinth. Maybe you missed the signifigance of that passage. Paul, in quoting Isaiah to explain the exact purpose for the sign, quotes


“ With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,â€

this people -- That would be Isaiah speaking about Israel, and that was Paul's point. It was a sign to Israel as a nation. God is no longer dealing with Israel as a nation. That's certainly not all of the scripture I would use to make my case. It should be more than enough to make a point, though.

With all due respect, Faith, I/we havn't even begun. So i don't know why you would say something like that. I didn't want to drown you out on the first day, that's all. Let me know exactly what you disagree with, and I'll do my best to explain. I'm just shooting from the hip right now. If you'd like to get into a real discussion, I'm all for it. Let me know. Peace...

Dave

 

[glorydaz]

I don't think all this was a result of the tongues, which is just an outward sign. It was a result of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which most denominations do not believe is for today. They say there is no "second act of grace." You get saved, you get the Holy Spirit and nothing after that. And of course it doesn't say in the bible that speaking in tongues is of the devil, but as far as I know, all mainline denominations except for pentecostals/charismatics believe that people who do it now are doing it of the devil, not of God.

Actually, most believers know they are baptized with the Holy Spirit when they are born again and the Holy Spirit comes into our heart. And I don't think most would say speaking in tongues is of the devil. I see it as immaturity and being "experience oriented". Paul rebuked the Corinthian Church for holding onto the ways of the pagans who surrendered themselves to their emotionalism and, while not forbidding them, he did encourage them to go on to a "more excellent" way.

 

[glorydaz]

Faith,

While Pentecostals do recognize that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon our initial faith, they do not recognize that the 'receiving of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit' is the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is what makes that baptism the necessary mechanics, if you will, of the born again experience. Pentecostals believe in what is called the doctrine of subsequence, that's the "second blessing that you spoke of, but one cannot be born again without being placed into (baptised) the Body of Christ, which is what the Baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit does. It's a spiritual baptism.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Also see Colossians 2:11-14, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:26-27 (through faith), Philippians 3:7-11. This is not water baptism.

If you are born again, you got there by being "placed into/immersed/baptised" into union with Christ Jesus, by Jesus Himself as a result of a genuine faith in Him. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the baptism.

There are a few different ways of defining cessationism. The definition usually used in these discussions is an 'all or nothing' argument and doesn't encompass the whole debate. The majority of cessationists believe in "the gifts" absent the sign gifts specific to Israel as a nation.

The list of gifts in scripture are not exhaustive. In other words, this cessationist, along with most others believe in more gifts than most Pentecostals and Charismatics do. What I see in todays Pentecostal and Charismatic churches is people who are trained to only see God in miracles, and, as a result, they then try to turn everything into a miracle when it's not. It's a very superficial faith.

Listen, God mostly answers prayers through providence, meaning thru non miraculous natural means. In short, to say that something is not a miracle is not to say that God didn't do it. We should understand that God's providence has Him in control and governing everything. We know that anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved "gift" from God (1 Corinthians 4:7, John 15:4-5). Our repentance, our faith, our perseverance in faith, etc. We give Him the Glory for all of it because He actually deserves it. He is the source of all that is good because only He is good. We cannot produce anything good by the flesh. A man centered theology hates these things.

I don't believe the 'sign gifts' are valid today for two reasons. One: Nobody is actually doing them per biblical standards. So why argue about something that isn't happening? Of course, to claim a "lesser gift" is in and of itself a form of cessation. Two: God's Word supports me. These sign gifts had specific purposes. None of them are biblically valid today.

Also...

Also, A distinction should be made between the gift of healing, which was healing done through human agency, and healing done directly from God in answer to prayer. This distinction is purposely avoided many times to muddy the waters between the two. They are not the same. Most cessationists do not deny that God heals if it is His will, and sometimes even miraculously, though that be rare. But what we don't believe is that the "gift of healing" is in operation today. All the evidence, both experiencial and biblical backs us up on this.

Perhaps what you're calling the baptism, is actually a filling, which is different. If you have any questions let me know.

 

[faithtransforms]

I agree with your point Dave that when you get born again, there is a baptism in the Holy Spirit. And like I said, what I experienced may be better described as a filling. But it was real and it was God. No way satan would do something like that. Make me on fire for God, witnessing to every one I saw, people getting saved by the Holy Spirit through me, giving me deeper revelation of the scriptures, etc. And I wasn't preaching a prosperity gospel, I was witnessing the core truths of the gospel. No way satan is responsible for that.

On a different note, there is no absolutely no scriptural evidence that the sign gifts passed away. Period. Anyone who thinks they have is holding on to an unscriptural viewpoint that is the result of the reasoning and traditions of men.

If there were ever a time this world needed the sign gifts, that time is now.

 

[glorydaz]

On a different note, there is no absolutely no scriptural evidence that the sign gifts passed away. Period. Anyone who thinks they have is holding on to an unscriptural viewpoint that is the result of the reasoning and traditions of men.

If there were ever a time this world needed the sign gifts, that time is now.

No, it's not an unscriptural viewpoint. The signs and wonders were given to attest to Jesus being the Messiah. The Jews required a sign, and it was given in the establishment of the early church. The church knew they'd ceased, and they didn't "reappear" until the early 1800's, when they were brought back by the Pentecostals. The Lord said there would be no more signs given except Jonah which pointed to His resurrection from the dead.

What the world needs now is to see the church standing strong on God's mercy and grace. We pray for healing, but there are no Apostles walking around performing miracles. We preach the gospel of the forgiveness of sins. The world is not convinced by a bunch of Christians speaking words that can't be understood. Now the church goes to other countries and speaks to the people in their own language...in much the way the disciples did at Pentecost via a miracle of God. Now we go forth by the power of the Holy Spirit and He gives us the words to speak from His Word.

 

[faithtransforms]

On a different note, there is no absolutely no scriptural evidence that the sign gifts passed away. Period. Anyone who thinks they have is holding on to an unscriptural viewpoint that is the result of the reasoning and traditions of men.

If there were ever a time this world needed the sign gifts, that time is now.

No, it's not an unscriptural viewpoint. The signs and wonders were given to attest to Jesus being the Messiah. The Jews required a sign, and it was given in the establishment of the early church. The church knew they'd ceased, and they didn't "reappear" until the early 1800's, when they were brought back by the Pentecostals. The Lord said there would be no more signs given except Jonah which pointed to His resurrection from the dead.

What the world needs now is to see the church standing strong on God's mercy and grace. We pray for healing, but there are no Apostles walking around performing miracles. We preach the gospel of the forgiveness of sins. The world is not convinced by a bunch of Christians speaking words that can't be understood. Now the church goes to other countries and speaks to the people in their own language...in much the way the disciples did at Pentecost via a miracle of God. Now we go forth by the power of the Holy Spirit and He gives us the words to speak from His Word.

Sorry glorydaz, the Apostle Paul worked signs and wonders for the gentiles. Not the Jews. I'm afraid that argument just doesn't hold up. Yes, the gifts did cease for a time. It was only when a great move of God happened in Wales and word travelled to the US that people began seeking God's face in earnestness with great passion and continuing in prayer and fasting and self-denial that the first person received the gift of tongues in modern history. With that the Holy Spirit began to manifest Himself in power and signs and wonders. I believe the sign gifts have been revived for these last days to assist in evangelism and the edifying of the Body.

 

[MMarc]

On a different note, there is no absolutely no scriptural evidence that the sign gifts passed away. Period. Anyone who thinks they have is holding on to an unscriptural viewpoint that is the result of the reasoning and traditions of men.

If there were ever a time this world needed the sign gifts, that time is now.

No, it's not an unscriptural viewpoint. The signs and wonders were given to attest to Jesus being the Messiah. The Jews required a sign, and it was given in the establishment of the early church. The church knew they'd ceased, and they didn't "reappear" until the early 1800's, when they were brought back by the Pentecostals. The Lord said there would be no more signs given except Jonah which pointed to His resurrection from the dead.

What the world needs now is to see the church standing strong on God's mercy and grace. We pray for healing, but there are no Apostles walking around performing miracles. We preach the gospel of the forgiveness of sins. The world is not convinced by a bunch of Christians speaking words that can't be understood. Now the church goes to other countries and speaks to the people in their own language...in much the way the disciples did at Pentecost via a miracle of God. Now we go forth by the power of the Holy Spirit and He gives us the words to speak from His Word.

The Lord said to this evil generation no more signs would be given. Remember when Jesus left the Holy Spirit came on the 120 and they all moved in power. Not sure why you don't believe in miracles as God and Jesus don't change.


Go to youtube and type healing miracles, you'll see plenty done in the name of Jesus so you know they are of the God of Jesus...