Bible Study Baptism?

[Religiot]

And I believe these words. The problem as I see it is that people like to inject their own views on this text by saying a couple things.

First, they claim that the text defines the order in which these events must occur, in other words, believe first and then be baptized. The word "and" is a conjunction and only specifies that both events are to take place and does not specify the order of events. If my wife calls me at work and asks me to stop on my way home to pick up a loaf of bread and a pound of ground beef, she is not implying that I must pick them up in that order. Her only concern is that I get both.

Second, notice the second half of that verse only speaks to he that does not believe and says nothing about he that is not baptized.

I also have to question which baptism is really being spoken of. Is it John's baptism of water or Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit?

Remember, John's baptism is not his, but God's, and Christ's baptism is not His, but His Father's: both are from the same source; first the water then the fire (though the order is not required), yet both are simply from God, and both are only by belief--which is the only requirement that validates baptism--for there is nothing that can commence in man without belief.

These two baptisms, together, form the one baptism God commanded, which is to be in Christ; for there is only one baptism, and it is only achievable by first believing that Christ is the Son of God and Savior of men.

The question of 'which baptism' presupposes, among other things, a dichotomy in baptism that doesn't exist: believers are simply required to obey God in all that He says; whether it is baptism in water or fire, they are both the baptism that God commanded.

For example, if God says keep My commandments, for us to then ask 'which ones' is only by the presuppositions that He didn't mean what He said or, that His statement was confusing and simply needed some clarifying, etc.

God commanded baptism by John, and by His Son, and His Son commanded His disciples to baptize, and to teach others to baptize: that's all we truly need to know; to question as to whether we should or not is to imply that God was not clear in His command.

--I know that there is much to be said about these things, but that is depth not required for salvation, nor obedience.

To obey God is the requirement for salvation, and God said to believe His Son when He says, "do whatsoever I tell you." For Christ is the author of eternal salvation to us who obey Him.

Obedience is above all, and we are required to believe God when He tells us this; otherwise, bad faith is what remains.

 

[jerry63935]

I also have to question which baptism is really being spoken of. Is it John's baptism of water or Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit?

certainly the most important one is baptism of the spirit For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 we are brought into the Body of christ born again of the spirit.

First, they claim that the text defines the order in which these events must occur, in other words, believe first and then be baptized. The word "and" is a conjunction and only specifies that both events are to take place and does not specify the order of events.

a interesting point so as i dont jump the gun are saying baptism should immediately follow on what others claim? when i was baptized i really didn't fully understand it . the time frame of someone baptized imo does not matter . if i am reading your post correctly at first i thought you was saying you can be baptized then saved latter . i have known people wait for long period of time to be baptized . imo i do think there should be a very informative teaching before being baptized

 

[Religiot]

i do think there should be a very informative teaching before being baptized

The only informative teaching required for baptism is the same teaching required for salvation, it is the preaching of the gospel: this is the teaching the Lord commanded, and it is accompanied by baptism, as the Lord commanded.

 

[Serving Zion]

It is the pledge of a good conscience toward God that saves us, and baptism is a ceremonial activity that proves we have committed to a new life in Christ. St Peter wrote of it, suggesting that the water of baptism symbolises the waters in the time of Noah's flood:

And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3:21 Berean Study Bible)

 

[Religiot]

It is the pledge of a good conscience toward God that saves us, and baptism is a ceremonial activity that proves we have committed to a new life in Christ. St Peter wrote of it, suggesting that the water of baptism symbolises the waters in the time of Noah's flood:

For clarity, I prefer the King's James Translation of the Bible, which reads:

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" --1 Peter 3:21

The answer of an already good conscience towards God is very different than the pledging of a good conscience towards God. (Not that it can't be taken to mean the pledge of fidelity by a good conscience, etc.)

Further, and of greater significance, baptism is not just a symbol of salvation, but a command required for salvation: baptism, in the above context, is a figure of the flood, not a figure of salvation, but the very action required for it.

Baptism in the below context, is again, demonstrated as the act required for salvation, for any who would've disobeyed, would've died:

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." --1 Corinthians 10:1-11

Obviously these people entered the sea, and walked on dry land, the water not effecting them, but it was done in obedience, thus resulting in salvation from the Egyptians.

--Baptism without a good conscience towards God is worthless, e.g., Simon the sorcerer was baptized, yet his heart remained a dark heart after gain, Acts 8:9-23.

To practice baptism without repentance is contrary to the gospel.

Why not just obey the gospel? Why not just obey the Lord? Why not just obey the disciples? Why try to parse and extrapolate meanings that do not follow from the plain commands, and contexts?

Why not just fear God, to obey Him?

It is only in the last days of this last generation that baptism is now treated as unnecessary: historically, baptism was known as commanded by the Lord, and all knew that it's value was simply found in the obedience of the believer to do what the Lord had commanded: this simplicity is ever dissipating, and the lawyering of old is ever increasing and cementing.

May God continue His longsuffering with this world, and with any who hear my preaching, and the preaching of others like me; for we only preach what our Master has, long ago, already commanded.

To all: Repent therefore, to obey the Lord, and to seek to understand the simplicity that is in Christ. Amen.

 

[JLB]

I have a question, if baptism is so required for salvation, then why is there no record of Jesus requiring baptism? Yes, He did tell His disciples to baptize but there is no record of Jesus actually requiring baptism of those that were saved after encountering Him.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

I also have to question which baptism is really being spoken of. Is it John's baptism of water or Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit?

Or the Spirit baptizing us into Christ.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


This is the baptism whereby we are baptized into Christ.


A person must be “in Christ” in order to partake of the eternal life which is only found “in Christ”.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Remember, John's baptism is not his, but God's, and Christ's baptism is not His, but His Father's: both are from the same source; first the water then the fire (though the order is not required), yet both are simply from God, and both are only by belief--which is the only requirement that validates baptism--for there is nothing that can commence in man without belief.

These two baptisms, together, form the one baptism God commanded, which is to be in Christ; for there is only one baptism, and it is only achievable by first believing that Christ is the Son of God and Savior of men.

The question of 'which baptism' presupposes, among other things, a dichotomy in baptism that doesn't exist: believers are simply required to obey God in all that He says; whether it is baptism in water or fire, they are both the baptism that God commanded.

For example, if God says keep My commandments, for us to then ask 'which ones' is only by the presuppositions that He didn't mean what He said or, that His statement was confusing and simply needed some clarifying, etc.

God commanded baptism by John, and by His Son, and His Son commanded His disciples to baptize, and to teach others to baptize: that's all we truly need to know; to question as to whether we should or not is to imply that God was not clear in His command.

--I know that there is much to be said about these things, but that is depth not required for salvation, nor obedience.

To obey God is the requirement for salvation, and God said to believe His Son when He says, "do whatsoever I tell you." For Christ is the author of eternal salvation to us who obey Him.

Obedience is above all, and we are required to believe God when He tells us this; otherwise, bad faith is what remains.

There are three distinct baptisms with three distinct baptizers.

IOW, the baptism directly associated with salvation is the one where we are baptized into Christ, by the Holy Spirit.










JLB

 

[Religiot]

There are three distinct baptisms with three distinct baptizers.

IOW, the baptism directly associated with salvation is the one where we are baptized into Christ, by the Holy Spirit.










JLB

I'm not familiar with that, dear brother.

Would you please explain that to me? --I would truly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Godspeed.

 

[JLB]

I'm not familiar with that, dear brother.

Would you please explain that to me? --I would truly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Godspeed.

There are three distinct baptisms, with three distinct baptizers.

Paul uses Old Testament types to illustrate this truth.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4


Key Verse:

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

Moses was a type of Christ, representing us being baptized into Christ.

This is done by the Spirit, as the Spirit being the One doing the baptizing.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This baptism is associated with salvation, whereby we come to be “in Christ”, by the action of the Spirit, as it is by the Spirit we are born again; being born of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

The cloud being a type of the Spirit, representing the baptism with the Holy Spirit, with Jesus the One doing the baptizing.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5


again


I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Mark 1:8

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

The sea being a type of water baptism, with man being the one doing the baptizing.


I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Mark 1:8


again


for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. Acts 1:5



The Point:

I personally believe the baptism associated with salvation is where the Spirit baptizes us into Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13)


He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16





JLB

 

[Religiot]

There are three distinct baptisms, with three distinct baptizers.

Paul uses Old Testament types to illustrate this truth.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4


Key Verse:

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

Moses was a type of Christ, representing us being baptized into Christ.

This is done by the Spirit, as the Spirit being the One doing the baptizing.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This baptism is associated with salvation, whereby we come to be “in Christ”, by the action of the Spirit, as it is by the Spirit we are born again; being born of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

The cloud being a type of the Spirit, representing the baptism with the Holy Spirit, with Jesus the One doing the baptizing.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5


again


I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Mark 1:8

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

The sea being a type of water baptism, with man being the one doing the baptizing.


I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Mark 1:8


again


for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. Acts 1:5



The Point:

I personally believe the baptism associated with salvation is where the Spirit baptizes us into Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13)


He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16





JLB

Thank you very much for your answer.

For clarity, do you mean that the three baptisms are that of Moses, John, and then Christ?

 

[JLB]

Thank you very much for your answer.

For clarity, do you mean that the three baptisms are that of Moses, John, and then Christ?

The three baptisms are:

The Spirit baptizing us into Christ.

Baptism in water by man.

Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit.


JLB

 

[JLB]

For clarity, do you mean that the three baptisms are that of Moses, John, and then Christ?

Moses, the cloud and the sea, foreshadowed the three baptisms we have today.




JLB

 

[Religiot]

Moses, the cloud and the sea, foreshadowed the three baptisms we have today.




JLB

What foreshadowing significance do you believe the pillar of fire had?

 

[JLB]

What foreshadowing significance do you believe the pillar of fire had?

Cloud by day and fire by night represented the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire.


JLB

 

[Religiot]

Cloud by day and fire by night represented the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire.


JLB

I don't think I've ever fully understood the baptism by fire.

What do you think it means?

 

[JLB]

I don't think I've ever fully understood the baptism by fire.

What do you think it means?

The Holy Spirit and Fire is one baptism.

Just as the cloud by day and fire by night, represented one baptism; being one Spirit.


God is an all consuming fire.


JLB

 

[Religiot]

The Holy Spirit and Fire is one baptism.

Just as the cloud by day and fire by night, represented one baptism; being one Spirit.


God is an all consuming fire.


JLB

That does make sense.

Thanks.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is baptism required for salvation?

Yes. God has chosen water baptism as the means by which men's sins are washed away by the blood of Christ.

--Revelation 1:5 Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood
--John 19:34 Christ shed HIs blood in His death therefore access into Christ's death where He shed His blood that washes away sins is needed.
--Romans 6:2-5 water baptism is the means as to how one is baptized into Christ's death where He shed HIs blood.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Is baptism required for salvation?

No i dont think so, but baptism brings clarity the mind, we can get baptised and not end up saved. Baptism is not as important as the walk in life with Jesus.