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Be Perfect - A question

DarcyLu

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Dec 17, 2009
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588
This is a sincere question from a seeking student of the Word. Listening to famous, well respected Bible scholars, I hear we are sinners and we will never be perfect, yet when I read the Bible God tells me to be perfect as He is and uses the word “saints†to describe us.
What am I missing?

Thanks!
Darcy
 

ProphetMark

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Jul 14, 2008
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DarcyLu said:
This is a sincere question from a seeking student of the Word. Listening to famous, well respected Bible scholars, I hear we are sinners and we will never be perfect, yet when I read the Bible God tells me to be perfect as He is and uses the word “saints†to describe us.
What am I missing?

Thanks!
Darcy
I think it's possible to stop sinning. Romans 6 is one chapter that seems to suggest so.
 

DarcyLu

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Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
588
ProphetMark said:
DarcyLu said:
This is a sincere question from a seeking student of the Word. Listening to famous, well respected Bible scholars, I hear we are sinners and we will never be perfect, yet when I read the Bible God tells me to be perfect as He is and uses the word “saints†to describe us.
What am I missing?

Thanks!
Darcy
I think it's possible to stop sinning. Romans 6 is one chapter that seems to suggest so.
Thanks Mark for your answer, yes, Romans 6 and Romans 7:14-25, some Bible scholars use this to say we are still in sin and we will always struggle with our sin nature, but to me it has been misinterpreted. I am not a scholar, but isn't Paul talking about his sin nature before Christ and with Christ, Paul will be able to overcome and be perfected in his life. How do you interpet this psg?
Romans 7:14
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Thanks,
Darcy
 
E

elijah23

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In Matthew 5:48 Jesus tells us we must be perfect. Apparently famous, well respected Bible scholars sometimes are mistaken.
 

DarcyLu

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Dec 17, 2009
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elijah23 said:
In Matthew 5:48 Jesus tells us we must be perfect. Apparently famous, well respected Bible scholars sometimes are mistaken.
:lol guess so, thanks for your answer.

BTW - Hawkeyes rock, but the Cyclones are better. :biggrin
 

DarcyLu

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Dec 17, 2009
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Tissue said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis
Thanks for the link, Tissue.

This view states we can become gods but it did not provide any scripture, do you have any scripture to support it?
 

Tissue

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I'm not too familiar with the idea myself, so I can't be of much help there.
 

nyc christian

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Jesus came and showed us how it's done. He came and lived a perfect life, he never sinned. We can do anything in Christ, in fact it's our obligation to try to be perfect just like he is. We may not achieve it but we can come close and well as long as we try - that will please him. Our human nature makes it difficult but that should not be an excuse.

But let us not forget to enjoy life and have fun in the process =]
 

DarcyLu

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nyc christian said:
Jesus came and showed us how it's done. He came and lived a perfect life, he never sinned. We can do anything in Christ, in fact it's our obligation to try to be perfect just like he is. We may not achieve it but we can come close and well as long as we try - that will please him. Our human nature makes it difficult but that should not be an excuse.

But let us not forget to enjoy life and have fun in the process =]
Hi nyc - yep, life is good isn't it? :)

Agreed, except for the part about coming close because perfect is perfect and the Word tells us to not come close but to be perfect and that is what I am trying to figure out and maybe I have to undo some teachings I have been taught in the past as what I have been taught is not what the Word says.
Did you check out the link Tissue provided? Interesting.
 

Ret

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Aug 29, 2008
Messages
488
DarcyLu said:
This is a sincere question from a seeking student of the Word. Listening to famous, well respected Bible scholars, I hear we are sinners and we will never be perfect, yet when I read the Bible God tells me to be perfect as He is and uses the word “saints†to describe us.
What am I missing?

Thanks!
Darcy
The story of Jesus in Mark 9:17-27, I won't quote in whole but tells of Jesus casting out a demon the other disciples could not cast out. Jesus asked the father of the demon possessed son if he 'BELIEVED', and as Jesus asked the question, the father became convicted of his own unbelief toward God and he cried 'Lord, I believe, help my unbelief'.

  • Mark 9:23-24

    23 Jesus said unto him [the father], If thou canst believe,
    all things are possible to him that believeth.

    24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears,
    Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. KJV

Darcy...same with us! Let us become anxious, fearful or arrogant etc., and UNBELIEF becomes king in our mind, unbelief toward God and His Christ. However, when we cry out for help and acknowledge our 'UNBELIEF' the demon must leave and the peace of God returns to our soul. This is not just a one-time incident. This happens often and is why we need to 'die' daily that the spirit of Jesus Christ will inhabit our minds and thereby bring our bodies under the control of the spirit of TRUTH!

Dieing daily to the anxiety, fear and arrogance that controls this human nature is how and why we are HIS SAINTS...our constant awareness of our helplessness cries out for help, help HE cannot turn away from! Thereby, IN CHRIST we abide...and CHRIST IS MY PERFECTION...NOT IN in/or of myself will I ever be PERFECT, but Christ and ONLY IN CHRIST is MY PERFECTION!

  • Mark 9:27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. KJV
edit spelling
 

nyc christian

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DarcyLu said:
nyc christian said:
Jesus came and showed us how it's done. He came and lived a perfect life, he never sinned. We can do anything in Christ, in fact it's our obligation to try to be perfect just like he is. We may not achieve it but we can come close and well as long as we try - that will please him. Our human nature makes it difficult but that should not be an excuse.

But let us not forget to enjoy life and have fun in the process =]
Hi nyc - yep, life is good isn't it? :)

Agreed, except for the part about coming close because perfect is perfect and the Word tells us to not come close but to be perfect and that is what I am trying to figure out and maybe I have to undo some teachings I have been taught in the past as what I have been taught is not what the Word says.
Did you check out the link Tissue provided? Interesting.
We can be perfect but not from birth, otherwise we wouldnt need to pray the sinners prayer. After we let God in our heart we could be perfect, the thing is know one has achieved that. That doesnt mean we shouldnt keep trying.
 

mondar

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There are many passages that use the term "perfect." One of the many such contexts is James 1:4. The greek word behind the translation is telos. The word telos does not always speak of perfect, it can also speak of a completed goal. In James 1:4 it refers to a person with a complete range of virtue, but not sinless perfection.

Another common passage often misused is Romans 6. The concept of being free from sin is found in that passage (Romans 6:18, 22). However, one must be careful to understand what freedom Paul is talking about. It is a legal freedom from the slavery of sin.

As an illustration, after the civil war, the black slaves were freed. But where did they make their living then? Many went right back to the plantation and worked for the former master. They were legally free of their former master, but the former master was still alive and well. In the same way, we are legally free of sin nature, we are no longer the slave of sin. This does not mean we are sinless, or that we do not have a sin nature anymore. It only means that our sin nature no longer enslaves us.
 

Jed

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Dec 19, 2009
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We, as Christians,are only perfected though the shed blood of Jesus Christ. How is this possible? We are sinful creatures, before and after the cross. Our sins were and are put on Christ at the cross. When we believe on Jesus Christ we are imputed with his righteousness. That is to say,it is not our righteousness that makes us acceptable before a perfect and holy God, but the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Romans4. Blessed is the man in which sin is not imputed.
Our sin is transferred to him and his perfect righteousness is transferred to us. That is how we are made perfect.
 

glorydaz

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Jed said:
We, as Christians,are only perfected though the shed blood of Jesus Christ. How is this possible? We are sinful creatures, before and after the cross. Our sins were and are put on Christ at the cross. When we believe on Jesus Christ we are imputed with his righteousness. That is to say,it is not our righteousness that makes us acceptable before a perfect and holy God, but the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Romans4. Blessed is the man in which sin is not imputed.
Our sin is transferred to him and his perfect righteousness is transferred to us. That is how we are made perfect.
Exactly...if we say we are without sin, we lie. And lying is a sin. :yes

Peter is the best example from the Bible. He had a hard time...all the time.
He is the perfect example of what Paul is talking about in Romans 7.
Paul was explaining a law he'd discovered while he was a believer, and that is that our flesh is always at war with our spirit. We don't suddenly become able to walk in the spirit...it's an ongoing "pressing on" that we each do in our walk with the Lord. We may desire to do good...have the very best intentions and then we get grumpy and yell at the kids, or experience a moment of pride.
Romans 7-21-25 said:
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul goes on to say in Romans 8...we are no longer in bondage. Sin has no more dominion..in other words, we can defeat sin when it shows up. We can overcome the sinful urges when they come upon us. Not that they still won't come, and not that we'll be perfect, but we now have the Comforter to lead us and strengthen us to overcome and press on toward the mark. As long as we're in this mortal body, we will be groaning within ourselves as we continue to claim victory over the flesh. The carnal man doesn't have the spirit...he walks in the flesh all the time. The spiritual man lives in the flesh, but it's the Spirit that rules. Satan would love to put us on a guilt trip when we fail to be perfect. He's a liar. He knows the One in us is perfect in spite of our living in this fleshly body, and Christ is our head. Our position is in Him.
Rom. 8 said:
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of
adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 

DarcyLu

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glorydaz said:
Exactly...if we say we are without sin, we lie. And lying is a sin. :yes

Peter is the best example from the Bible. He had a hard time...all the time.
He is the perfect example of what Paul is talking about in Romans 7.
Paul was explaining a law he'd discovered while he was a believer, and that is that our flesh is always at
hi glory, your interpetation of Romans 7 was the same as mine, yet when it says,

24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

could it be he was talking about his sin nature before Christ and then after Christ he knew he could be perfected? Paul is continually talking of reaching perfection.
 
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darcy be encouraged we are new creations born from heaven!

scholars say alot of things and are almost always WRONG. Just today I was thinking on this actually so this is kinda funny. I was listening to something while reading today and they were having scholars so called say that certian things in the bible never happened that were in the book of matthew( this was the history chanel and they had on some " well respected scholars" some were saying that because only matthew records the killing of the babies in bethleham it was likely it didnt happen- then scholars were saying that Jesus never was taken to egypt as a child like the book of matthew says he was. ya know what there reason was for saying that? There reason was that we dont see egyptian influence in his writtings. I wanted to yell at the tv. lol yikes he was a child for one, why would he have egyptian influence when he was there as an infant LOL but beyond that, like the son of Gods doctrine needed to have egyptian influence if he had been there? anyways that was a rant i know but it helps tell us we should not be listening to " scholars".

anyways, we are told actually ALOT about being perfect in the word. The idea of us being " sinners saved by grace" really means we are lost and damned and have no grace. people with that doctrine do not yet understand the work of the cross or the new creation, or the Lord living in us and having set us free from the bondage sin had over us in the flesh. sinners are lost- saints have grace to KEEP US FROM SINNING AMEN!!! here are some great verses.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].



2Cr 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
 

shad

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Jan 27, 2009
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Darcy,

Jesus also says "anything is possible with God's help". If we strive to be obedient to Jesus, the Holy Spirit will help us to be perfect.

.
 

DarcyLu

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Dec 17, 2009
Messages
588
hi Godspromiseryes
Yes, those are some of the versus that I have been questioning and wondering why churches don't teach this, yet we are taught we are still sinners and always will be. Yet I do sin, hate it and try to do better and remember and have faith that He is in me and through Him I can do all things. If I could get a grasp on really believing what the Word says about this and perhaps undoing some things that were taught to me, it would make a difference for me.

I agree with you about scholars, they have so many differing opinions and ideas - so who is right. I find myself spending more time in the Word then listening to any one of the scholars, yet we are to "hear the Word". :shrug
 
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