Belief and Faith

[JLB]

i never said doing GOD work was filthy rags let me make this very clear our works the things we do of our own accord is as filthy rags..we us our-self have NO righteousness.but of what Christ done for us.

What Christ did for us He did for all mankind.


Will all mankind be saved?

Is all mankind righteous?


What is the difference between a Christian who is saved and the unbelieving?


What is the difference between a born again Christian who is led by the Spirit and a born again Christian who lives according to the flesh?


It is those who practice righteousness that are righteous.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:15


Born again Christians who practice unrighteousness are certainly not righteous.




JLB

 

[chessman]

You said:
Like saying:
This conversation is productive THOUGH technical.
Here, would you be thanking God because this conversation is productive or technical?

No. I didn’t thank God for anything in post #218. You must be confused.

But Paul most certainly did thank God for doing something in Romans 6:17-18. I simply pointed out what it was God did.

JLB disagrees. Fine, So then I asked you and JLB to support what you are claiming it was Paul thanked God for doing with a simple question. Yet you’ve not answered it (all the while accusing me of not answering your questions. Here, I’ll bold it (what Paul was thanking God for doing) for you again:

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted, and having been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.​

Romans 6:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:17-18&version=LEB

Since you think it’s the secondary clause (you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted) of the sentence that Paul was thanking God for doing, why? Think carefully.

Think carefully.

I have. Yet I just cannot, for the life of me, think of why neither you or JLB will not answer my question about the passage: “Why would Paul thank God for doing something someone else had done?”

I haven't had one experience yet where the Greek lexicon helped.

That’s unfortunate for it is simply a study tool. A Greek-English Lexicon is simply a dictionary. I.e a study tool (written in English).

Are you serious?

Yes.

 

[ezra]

What Christ did for us He did for all mankind.


Will all mankind be saved?

Is all mankind righteous?


What is the difference between a Christian who is saved and the unbelieving?


What is the difference between a born again Christian who is led by the Spirit and a born again Christian who lives according to the flesh?


It is those who practice righteousness that are righteous.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:15


Born again Christians who practice unrighteousness are certainly not righteous.




JLB

how about this just deliver the message let the holy spirit do the conviction i really have no farther desire to try to go any farther with you. maybe you should check your flesh have a good day

 

[JLB]

I have. Yet I just cannot, for the life of me, think of why neither you or JLB will not answer my question about the passage: “Why would Paul thank God for doing something someone else had done?”

Again, Because Paul understands that their obedience was by God’s Grace.


Paul thanked God that they obeyed.


I have answered this before and given the scriptural pattern where this principle occurs in Paul’s letters, as well as Peter’s.


People obeying by the power of the Spirit of Grace.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 1 Peter 1:22



JLB

 

[WIP]

how about this just deliver the message let the holy spirit do the conviction i really have no farther desire to try to go any farther with you. maybe you should check your flesh have a good day

Ezra, take a breath and please calm down. I don't see where anyone is accusing you of anything. You are both just sharing your differing points of view.

 

[chessman]

Paul understands that their obedience was by God’s Grace.

Paul thanked God that God had set them free from being a slave to sin.

Paul thanked God that they obeyed.

Did God do their obedience?

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 1 Peter 1:22

Yep, thanks be to God, that the truth is; it is purified souls who obey the Truth through __________?

How could it be true that anyone besides God delivered them from being a slave to sin???

for it is written, “You will be holy, because I am holy.”​

1 Peter 1:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:16&version=LEB

God’s word never fails!

 

[JLB]

Paul thanked God that God had set them free from being a slave to sin.

Let’s see what the scripture says.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Romans 6:16-17


yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.


The scripture plainly says the reason Paul thanked God, was because they obeyed the doctrine.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Did God do their obedience?

God enabled them to obey.

God gave them the power to do the obeying.

It’s called grace.

Whenever we see that someone is saved by grace, we know that they were granted the ability to obey the Gospel.


This truth is prefaced in the first chapter of Romans.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


It’s called the obedience of faith.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

No. I didn’t thank God for anything in post #218. You must be confused.

But Paul most certainly did thank God for doing something in Romans 6:17-18. I simply pointed out what it was God did.

JLB disagrees. Fine, So then I asked you and JLB to support what you are claiming it was Paul thanked God for doing with a simple question. Yet you’ve not answered it (all the while accusing me of not answering your questions. Here, I’ll bold it (what Paul was thanking God for doing) for you again:

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted, and having been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.​

Romans 6:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:17-18&version=LEB

Since you think it’s the secondary clause (you have obeyed from the heart the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted) of the sentence that Paul was thanking God for doing, why? Think carefully.



I have. Yet I just cannot, for the life of me, think of why neither you or JLB will not answer my question about the passage: “Why would Paul thank God for doing something someone else had done?”

That’s unfortunate for it is simply a study tool. A Greek-English Lexicon is simply a dictionary. I.e a study tool (written in English).

Yes.

You should know me by now...I'm never confused.
I could be wrong...but not confused. (BTW, I'm never wrong either!! LOL --- JK)

C, I didn't say you were thanking God for anything in post 218...you posted an EXAMPLE, and I was referring to your example which is:

Like saying:
This conversation is productive THOUGH technical.

What is being said above?
THIS CONVERSATION IS PRODUCTIVE.

But you REVERSED the composition of the sentence.
It's NOT the same as saying:

Romans 6:17-18
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

The above verses need commas, which are not inserted.
It should be:
"But thanks be to God that, though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart..."

Surely you know that the part in parenthesis could be removed and the sentence would still have the same meaning the author intended.

Also...
"And, having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

So what is Paul thanking God for:
YOU BECAME OBEDIENT FROM THE HEART.
YOU BECAME SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Read what you wrote,,,you say Paul thanked God that they were SLAVES TO SIN!

What do you mean that Paul was thinking God for something someone else had done? You mean that they obeyed? We thank God for everything...I don't quite understand what you're getting at here. Was God responsible because before they were slaves to sin and now they weren't so Paul was thanking God for this? No. Because that would make God responsible for making them sinners in the first place. He was thanking God for making them obedient and making them slaves of righteousness.

 

[JLB]

You mean that they obeyed? We thank God for everything...I don't quite understand what you're getting at here.

It seems that the many believe, if we are obedient to Christ our Lord, that is somehow the same as the works of the law.

Those who promote the teachings of Calvinism must eliminate both freewill, as well as the principle of the obedience of faith.

The book of Romans, begins and ends with the expression, “the obedience of faith”, making the entire letter to the Church at Rome, contextually about this principle or
“law” of faith.


Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, Romans 1:5


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26




JLB

 

[chessman]

The scripture plainly says the reason Paul thanked God, was because they obeyed the doctrine.

Nope. Paul would have thanked them for that. You skipped right over why Paul thanked God and are ignoring the fact that “yet ...” is there introducing a parenthetical statement.

yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

conj.​

And despite this; nevertheless:​

Example: I thank God that you were a slave to sin, nevertheless you obeyed, and are now a slave to righteousness.​

This truth is prefaced in the first chapter of Romans.

Truth is prefaced in the first chapter of Romans, sure:

Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, ... among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.​

Romans 1:1,6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 1:1,6&version=LEB

Just as Paul gives thanks to God in Romans 6, they are being set apart by God. Did God do their obeying?

God enabled them to obey.

Close. God set them free from sin and enslaved them to righteousness. And Paul thanks God for doing it.

God gave them the power to do the obeying.

Which is why Paul thanked God for it, not them. This power to obey, is it of God or of them?

Whenever we see that someone is saved by grace, we know that they were granted the ability to obey the Gospel.

Whenever we see someone attempting to weaken Paul’s thanking God for; 1) setting them free from sin and 2) enslaving them to righteousness into merely ‘granting them ability’, we know that someone just doesn’t understand Paul’s gratitude for what God did.

 

[MarkT]

Let’s see what the scripture says.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Romans 6:16-17


yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.


The scripture plainly says the reason Paul thanked God, was because they obeyed the doctrine.



JLB

First you have to be free of one master (sin) before you can serve another master (righteousness). God accomplished this by sacrificing his Son and uniting us in his death. Romans 6:5 Thanks be to God!

 

[ezra]

Ezra, take a breath and please calm down. I don't see where anyone is accusing you of anything. You are both just sharing your differing points of view.

i have my breath thank you very much yes yes its now sharing points of view ..trust me if i was not calm the board could see it. that post was made at 8:02 a.m it is now 9:32 pm over 12 hours later

 

[JLB]

Nope. Paul would have thanked them for that. You skipped right over why Paul thanked God and are ignoring the fact that “yet ...” is there introducing a parenthetical statement.

I skipped nothing.

I ignored nothing.

Romans 6:17



I have quoted the entire scripture as well as other scriptures that show is it is God working in us by His Spirit to inspire and empower us to be led by Him to do His will, which is righteous.

It is us, by the Spirit, doing the will of God to:

Practice Righteousness.
Practice Love.
Practice the Truth.
Obey the Truth.
Speak the Truth.
Walk in the Truth.


This is the principle of God working in us to do His good pleasure; to both will and do His good pleasure.


for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:13

First you have to be free of one master (sin) before you can serve another master (righteousness). God accomplished this by sacrificing his Son and uniting us in his death. Romans 6:5 Thanks be to God!

Amen!

How do we appropriate this blessing?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Surely you know that the part in parenthesis could be removed and the sentence would still have the same meaning the author intended.

So you believe we don’t have to obey the doctrine to be delivered?


JLB

 

[ezra]

So you believe we don’t have to obey the doctrine to be delivered?


JLB

you place heavy emphasis on obey and no one including ME has ever said different ..do you walk in perfect obedience %100 of the time? mind you this is just a discussion..do you walk in the spirit %100 of the time.. for you see there is the key .buy HIS Divine power he has given us all things we need. so we are without excuse him that knows to do good and does not is sin

 

[chessman]

It should be:
"But thanks be to God that, though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart..."

Surely you know that the part in parenthesis could be removed and the sentence would still have the same meaning the author intended.

You didn’t put anything in parentheses, yet you certainly could have because there is a primary clause and a secondary clause within the passage. And I’ve pointed out previously, there is no “though” in the original Text. Which IS the issue; What is primary versus secondary. It’s obvious when one actually thinks about the answer to the question; Why would Paul thank God for doing something God didn’t do???

Here’s a simple exercise: look at some of the titles of the passage in discussion within the various translations that use titles and ask yourself, who did this???:

1. “You were freed from slavery to sin.” Who freed you from slavery to sin??? Answer = God. So Paul’s thanking God for doing that to them.

2. “Set free from sin.” Who set you free??? God. So Paul thanks the responsible party.

etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you believe we don’t have to obey the doctrine to be delivered?


JLB

I'm not addressing any doctrine,,,I'm addressing the English that chessman insists says that Paul thank God that they were not saved before...this is wrong.

Anyway,,,what doctrine are you speaking of?
I've been concentrating on Chessman's interpretation.

I believe we must obey from the heart, if you're referring to this...

 

[GodsGrace]

You didn’t put anything in parentheses, yet you certainly could have because there is a primary clause and a secondary clause within the passage. And I’ve pointed out previously, there is no “though” in the original Text. Which IS the issue; What is primary versus secondary. It’s obvious when one actually thinks about the answer to the question; Why would Paul thank God for doing something God didn’t do???

Here’s a simple exercise: look at some of the titles of the passage in discussion within the various translations that use titles and ask yourself, who did this???:

1. “You were freed from slavery to sin.” Who freed you from slavery to sin??? Answer = God. So Paul’s thanking God for doing that to them.

2. “Set free from sin.” Who set you free??? God. So Paul thanks the responsible party.

etc.

Gosh Chessman...
Can't you even figure out that I meant COMMAS!
What do parenthesis have to do with anything?

Anyway, I really can't discuss this anymore.
Paul is thanking God that we obey.
And that we are now slaves to righteousness.

If you could explain to me why this is so important, I'll continue with the English lesson.

BTW, don't have you an English professor you could ask???
That would be great.

 

[GodsGrace]

You didn’t put anything in parentheses, yet you certainly could have because there is a primary clause and a secondary clause within the passage. And I’ve pointed out previously, there is no “though” in the original Text. Which IS the issue; What is primary versus secondary. It’s obvious when one actually thinks about the answer to the question; Why would Paul thank God for doing something God didn’t do???

Here’s a simple exercise: look at some of the titles of the passage in discussion within the various translations that use titles and ask yourself, who did this???:

1. “You were freed from slavery to sin.” Who freed you from slavery to sin??? Answer = God. So Paul’s thanking God for doing that to them.

2. “Set free from sin.” Who set you free??? God. So Paul thanks the responsible party.

etc.

Forget about who's responsible and concentrate on the English.
We thank God for EVERYTHING.
We DO NOT thank Him that we were slaves to sin before....
the part that comes BEFORE the comma--which you claim is what Paul is thanking God for.

UFFA!