Belief and Faith

[GodsGrace]

It seems that the many believe, if we are obedient to Christ our Lord, that is somehow the same as the works of the law.

Those who promote the teachings of Calvinism must eliminate both freewill, as well as the principle of the obedience of faith.

The book of Romans, begins and ends with the expression, “the obedience of faith”, making the entire letter to the Church at Rome, contextually about this principle or
“law” of faith.


Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, Romans 1:5


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26




JLB

Yes. The above is very true and I fight for both.
Man is not predestined to be saved by a wicked, unjust God, and I'll proclaim this for as long as I can.

Also, works are good, they are not a bad idea. They are all over the bible.

NO ONE is saved by works. How many times must this be repeated?
Man is saved by grace THROUGH faith.

AFTER salvation, man is REQUIRED to obey God and do whatever works he can.

I hear nowadays that faith is a work. Belief is a work. It's becoming more and more nonsense which is not found in the bible.

Unsaved persons are not required to do anything...they're already lost.

Saved persons are required to do what God wants them to and which Jesus commanded. To keep saved?? YES! To keep saved.
All those IF's mean nothing to some; all those ENDURINGS,,,etc.

I fail to understand WHY some churches teach this "easy believism".
They make everything easy for fear some may leave Christianity.

Maybe they don't belong there?

 

[chessman]

We DO NOT thank Him that we were slaves to sin before....

Paul does, in the passage and elsewhere:

For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all. Oh, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! ... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for eternity! Amen.​

Romans 11:33-36 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 11:33-36&version=LEB
Romans 11:32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 11:32&version=LEB

And he even tells us why he thanks God they WERE slaves to sin; “in order that He could have mercy on them”

 

[Tessa]

Yes. The above is very true and I fight for both.
Man is not predestined to be saved by a wicked, unjust God, and I'll proclaim this for as long as I can.

Also, works are good, they are not a bad idea. They are all over the bible.

NO ONE is saved by works. How many times must this be repeated?
Man is saved by grace THROUGH faith.

AFTER salvation, man is REQUIRED to obey God and do whatever works he can.

I hear nowadays that faith is a work. Belief is a work. It's becoming more and more nonsense which is not found in the bible.

Unsaved persons are not required to do anything...they're already lost.

Saved persons are required to do what God wants them to and which Jesus commanded. To keep saved?? YES! To keep saved.
All those IF's mean nothing to some; all those ENDURINGS,,,etc.

I fail to understand WHY some churches teach this "easy believism".
They make everything easy for fear some may leave Christianity.

Maybe they don't belong there?

Spot on

Love you Sis. Now take three deep breaths

 

[MarkT]

I skipped nothing.

I ignored nothing.

Romans 6:17



I have quoted the entire scripture as well as other scriptures that show is it is God working in us by His Spirit to inspire and empower us to be led by Him to do His will, which is righteous.

It is us, by the Spirit, doing the will of God to:

Practice Righteousness.
Practice Love.
Practice the Truth.
Obey the Truth.
Speak the Truth.
Walk in the Truth.


This is the principle of God working in us to do His good pleasure; to both will and do His good pleasure.


for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:13


Amen!

How do we appropriate this blessing?


JLB

By holding on to the truth of Jesus Christ. And by faith because faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Romans 4:5
And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

 

[ezra]

this entire topic is gone south of the border the doctrine obeyed is the Gospel For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. and yes this will tie in with my study for Sunday morning... in ways this forum reminds me of the church i will be preaching at there pastor resigned why i do not know nor do i need to.. see some say it was him say say it was the board who run him off.. the problem with church today we place rules rules rules rules and choke quench the spirit .like a over tight collar on a dog... my statement i made was taken out of context w/o even asking to explain my point... some jumped on the band wagon to tell ol ezra chill out etc ..lets face it majority of the time we debate not discuss paul was thankful for more than just one thing

 

[stovebolts]

ezra
Changing the tone from debate to discussion starts first and foremost with each and every one of us individually.
I've been thinking about this, so let me run this by you.

Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth" to which Jesus replied, "I am the way, truth and life... ". Sounds simple because when asked what this means, we simply say "Jesus". Jesus is always the right answer, but it's also so much deeper than that.

Lets look at truth. Exodus 21:24 states "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth". This law - rule states that you cannot impose punishment greater than the crime committed. It states that you have the right to settle your claim against your brother and hold them accountable for their action. It also sets limits on the action you can take. You can't cut a hand off because somebody broke your finger.

But scripture also states in 1 Peter 4:8 that love covers a multitude of sins which is also rooted in Torah. In other words, while it's true you are within your right to hold your brother accountable, you also have the option to not hold his wrong against him.

Too often I think we hold our differences over our brother and we forget the grace God has granted each and every one of us. Not only that, but some even enjoy going to court to battle their cases.

What is the greater good? In other words, what is the greater truth? Do we hold them accountable or do we extend grace? Really, this is a lesson in discernment IMHO because there is a time to hold somebody accountable, and there is a time to extend grace. -->

 

[ezra]

ezra
Changing the tone from debate to discussion starts first and foremost with each and every one of us individually.
I've been thinking about this, so let me run this by you.

Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth" to which Jesus replied, "I am the way, truth and life... ". Sounds simple because when asked what this means, we simply say "Jesus". Jesus is always the right answer, but it's also so much deeper than that.

Lets look at truth. Exodus 21:24 states "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth". This law - rule states that you cannot impose punishment greater than the crime committed. It states that you have the right to settle your claim against your brother and hold them accountable for their action. It also sets limits on the action you can take. You can't cut a hand off because somebody broke your finger.

But scripture also states in 1 Peter 4:8 that love covers a multitude of sins which is also rooted in Torah. In other words, while it's true you are within your right to hold your brother accountable, you also have the option to not hold his wrong against him.

Too often I think we hold our differences over our brother and we forget the grace God has granted each and every one of us. Not only that, but some even enjoy going to court to battle their cases.

What is the greater good? In other words, what is the greater truth? Do we hold them accountable or do we extend grace? Really, this is a lesson in discernment IMHO because there is a time to hold somebody accountable, and there is a time to extend grace. -->

i am not the one holding the wrong ..it appears in many times when i give my discussion i am given a bible lesson i am more than well aware of what peter has wrote on love covers a multitude of sins. it also says use hospitality to one another . maybe you can take my place preaching in the morning after all it appears i dont know what i am talking about

 

[stovebolts]

i am not the one holding the wrong ..it appears in many times when i give my discussion i am given a bible lesson i am more than well aware of what peter has wrote on love covers a multitude of sins. it also says use hospitality to one another . maybe you can take my place preaching in the morning after all it appears i dont know what i am talking about

Ohh no, you are more than qualified to preach and I'm sorry if I came across otherwise.
Besides, while my "lesson" applies to every Christian including myself, I was more or less seeking your opinion on the matter.

Anywho, I will humbly bow out now as our discussion really doesnt pertain specifically to the Op.

Knock it out of the park tomorrow Brother!

 

[ezra]

Ohh no, you are more than qualified to preach and I'm sorry if I came across otherwise.
Besides, while my "lesson" applies to every Christian including myself, I was more or less seeking your opinion on the matter.

Anywho, I will humbly bow out now as our discussion really doesnt pertain specifically to the Op.

Knock it out of the park tomorrow Brother!

see i have gave my opinion multiple times.. i can appreciate trying to keep the forum at normal level.. some of the things will not work .the entire chapter of peter where he wrote the end of all things are at hand. is a excellent read in fact i used it last sunday . the internet is crazy thing i like forums.. problem is we all have different personalities , different beliefs,just different in every way you can think of . my ways are on forums are usually straight out get to the point.. for example for close to months me and 4 his glory butted heads in disagreements of interpretation.. it took a while to work out .but there are other issues we are in agreement on.. certainly we can not get ugly with each other. but please dont rule the forum to death... between trying to get a chainsaw that was running good this summer in 100 degree temps.ughhhh and know that mo weather has cooled. my neighbor has given us a tree for fire wood. saw wants act up dog follows us over he gets in the area where neighbors has pregnant goat and starts chasing them.. Dog wont listen i cant catch him . i am madder than a old wet hen. i get knocked over by the goats. gesshhh ..i had a carnal fit caught the dog thumped him good. . see what i am saying is personalities comes out on the forum. that is why i compared it to the church i am preaching in for right now.. i have no idea where it will lead if the door is open i will walk in. my oldest sister and her husband went there. but are not happy with the way things have went.. personalities is something hard to get together in full unity on the net . when you ave Pentecostals/ baptist church of christ etc. doctrines will collide.. my last example a community was holding a revival and it landed at a first baptist church. a Pentecostal man was there praying in tongues how loud i dunno . but the pastor went to him saying you can,t do that here .once again personalities -doctrines will collide and sometimes it is best to let them come out monitor the threads .so as the flesh does not come out . i mean 10 pages on the same discussion topic agreeing disagreeing goes no place ..i have no doubt i probably sounded cross with you.. did not mean for it to be but it happens . we go back to the foot of the cross where we all have common ground and start from scratch . none of us holds the the true answer ..but i know a man who does

 

[JLB]

you place heavy emphasis on obey and no one including ME has ever said different ..do you walk in perfect obedience %100 of the time? mind you this is just a discussion..do you walk in the spirit %100 of the time.. for you see there is the key .buy HIS Divine power he has given us all things we need. so we are without excuse him that knows to do good and does not is sin

Here was your last message to me.

how about this just deliver the message let the holy spirit do the conviction i really have no farther desire to try to go any farther with you. maybe you should check your flesh have a good day

Does this mean you now have regained your desire to continue our discussion?



JLB

I'm not addressing any doctrine,,,I'm addressing the English that chessman insists says that Paul thank God that they were not saved before...this is wrong.

Anyway,,,what doctrine are you speaking of?
I've been concentrating on Chessman's interpretation.

I believe we must obey from the heart, if you're referring to this...

Yes ma’am. Obey from the heart.

Chessman’s doctrine seems to teach that we don’t have to obey to be delivered.


I don’t know for sure though, because he won’t answer me.


JLB

 

[JLB]

By holding on to the truth of Jesus Christ. And by faith because faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Romans 4:5
And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Do you consider Abraham’s obedience to circumcise himself and his household, by faith, a “work”?

If we read a little further we see the “law” of faith Paul had just described at the end of chapter 3, in which the obedience of faith is what the contextual subject Paul is relating.

Key Verse -

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,



But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. Romans 4:5-12



JLB

 

[ezra]

Does this mean you now have regained your desire to continue our discussion?

no sir it does not

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB

Yes ma’am. Obey from the heart.

Chessman’s doctrine seems to teach that we don’t have to obey to be delivered.


I don’t know for sure though, because he won’t answer me.


JLB

LOL
According to chessman 's English, Paul is thanking God that they were not saved before.

Anyway, this seems to me to be a silly discussion---but he insists!

Paul is thanking God :

1. that they have obeyed.
2. that they have been freed from sin.

I think this discussion should end...

 

[GodsGrace]

see i have gave my opinion multiple times.. i can appreciate trying to keep the forum at normal level.. some of the things will not work .the entire chapter of peter where he wrote the end of all things are at hand. is a excellent read in fact i used it last sunday . the internet is crazy thing i like forums.. problem is we all have different personalities , different beliefs,just different in every way you can think of . my ways are on forums are usually straight out get to the point.. for example for close to months me and 4 his glory butted heads in disagreements of interpretation.. it took a while to work out .but there are other issues we are in agreement on.. certainly we can not get ugly with each other. but please dont rule the forum to death... between trying to get a chainsaw that was running good this summer in 100 degree temps.ughhhh and know that mo weather has cooled. my neighbor has given us a tree for fire wood. saw wants act up dog follows us over he gets in the area where neighbors has pregnant goat and starts chasing them.. Dog wont listen i cant catch him . i am madder than a old wet hen. i get knocked over by the goats. gesshhh ..i had a carnal fit caught the dog thumped him good. . see what i am saying is personalities comes out on the forum. that is why i compared it to the church i am preaching in for right now.. i have no idea where it will lead if the door is open i will walk in. my oldest sister and her husband went there. but are not happy with the way things have went.. personalities is something hard to get together in full unity on the net . when you ave Pentecostals/ baptist church of christ etc. doctrines will collide.. my last example a community was holding a revival and it landed at a first baptist church. a Pentecostal man was there praying in tongues how loud i dunno . but the pastor went to him saying you can,t do that here .once again personalities -doctrines will collide and sometimes it is best to let them come out monitor the threads .so as the flesh does not come out . i mean 10 pages on the same discussion topic agreeing disagreeing goes no place ..i have no doubt i probably sounded cross with you.. did not mean for it to be but it happens . we go back to the foot of the cross where we all have common ground and start from scratch . none of us holds the the true answer ..but i know a man who does

Hey Ezra,
Move to NYC -- all your problems will just magically disappear!!

Just kidding.

 

[GodsGrace]

i am not the one holding the wrong ..it appears in many times when i give my discussion i am given a bible lesson i am more than well aware of what peter has wrote on love covers a multitude of sins. it also says use hospitality to one another . maybe you can take my place preaching in the morning after all it appears i dont know what i am talking about

It seems we ALL give bible lessons.
I, for one, do not like the idea that we come here to teach. I know even some I agree with on everything use this terminology.

I like to say we come here to discuss.
So JLB believes he is 100% right and You believe You are 100% right. Problem is...both can't be right.

I'm sure you know that I agree with JLB. Here's why:

First of all any new Christian reading along will get incorrect ideas by reading what you, and those that agree with you, write. I know you don't mean this...but it sounds like after we come to salvation it's not necessary to obey or do works or do anything. It sounds like God will do it all for us.

When I encounter this type of disagreement, I like to go back to what those immediately after Jesus believed and taught others.
I find that nowhere in their writings is this idea that we have today of being "born again" in the way that we understand it.

They believed and taught that we must FOLLOW Jesus...to follow means to obey and to do the works HE spoke about.

I'm referring to the Early Church Fathers...or the very first theologians. So then I'm told they were not inspired. Well, are those of the 18th and 19th centuries inspired? Why do we listen to THEM and not to the ECF??

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul does, in the passage and elsewhere:

For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all. Oh, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! ... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for eternity! Amen.​

Romans 11:33-36 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 11:33-36&version=LEB
Romans 11:32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 11:32&version=LEB

And he even tells us why he thanks God they WERE slaves to sin; “in order that He could have mercy on them”

You're changing the conversation!
I think we should stop discussing this silly topic....

 

[ezra]

So @JLB believes he is 100% right and You believe You are 100% right. Problem is...both can't be right.

nope i am never %100 right as i am not the spirit of truth ......i only do the what i can with what i have learned so that observation is wrong

 

[MarkT]

Do you consider Abraham’s obedience to circumcise himself and his household, by faith, a “work”?

If we read a little further we see the “law” of faith Paul had just described at the end of chapter 3, in which the obedience of faith is what the contextual subject Paul is relating.

Key Verse -

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,



But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. Romans 4:5-12



JLB

Abraham did as the LORD commanded him. So I would consider it a work.

 

[chessman]

Anyway, this seems to me to be a silly discussion---but he insists!

I haven’t insisted on the discussion. You can post/reply or not, it’s up to you. You can follow to ToS in doing so or not, it’s up to you. (How would you like for me to call your discussions “silly” over and over???).

You can look at the Biblical evidence I’ve presented or not it’s up to you. You can have faith/trust in what Paul literally wrote or you can simply believe your tradition that Paul wouldn’t thank God for their past tense slavery (confinement to disobedience), it’s up to you.

You’ve chosen to participate in a discussion in such a way as to call it “silly” (multiple times now) that Paul would thank God they were (past tense not present tense) slaves of sin, when the fact is that’s literally what he wrote:

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but ...​

Romans 6:17-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:17-18&version=LEB

I have the faith to believe what Paul wrote is true and very much serious theology, not silly at all.

You're changing the conversation!

How is the fact that Paul wrote that “God confined them in disobedience” changing to discussion??? Isn’t that the part you don’t think Paul was thanking God for doing?

It seems to me confining someone to disobedience is simply another way expressing slavery to sin. Same thing really. But don’t reply if you’re through with the discussion. That is of course unless you feel it necessary to continue to call it “silly”. Might want to review ToS 1 and 1.1 first though.

I think we should stop discussing this silly topic.

Then just stop. Or at least stop calling it “silly”.

 

[ezra]

Might want to review ToS 1 and 1.1 first though.

we just need tos 6 and 2.2 more tos .goes right back to hat i stated personalities on the net collide