[__ Science __ ] ben stein on id scientists vs evolution scientists

[Truthfrees]

there are actually more creation intelligent design scientists than we think - the problem is they lose their wiki pages or their fellowship / research / university job when they come out in support of intelligent design

ben stein's movie expelled no intelligence allowed exposes all this

1. https://www.haaretz.com/science-and...inst-evolution-loses-wikipedia-page-1.5466166

2. https://uncommondescent.com/intelli...igent-design-or-attacked-darwinian-evolution/

3. https://www.discovery.org/id/peer-review/

4. http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1207

5. https://evolutionnews.org/2007/05/scientists_who_support_intelli/

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_on_intelligent_design

7. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lists_of_creationist_scientists

 

[Barbarian]

there are actually more creation intelligent design scientists than we think - the problem is they lose their wiki pages or their fellowship / research / university job when they come out in support of intelligent design

That's a common misconception, and it's just a story IDers tell to assume victim status. In fact, Michael Behe, Michael Denton, and other scientists who promote ID have retained their tenure at universities. They still publish and teach.

ben stein's movie expelled no intelligence allowed exposes all this

Ben Stein has been caught in so many dishonesties, he now refuses to take interviews about them. Perhaps his most egregious lie is to compare science with the Holocaust.
From the Anti-Defamation League:

New York, NY, April 29, 2008 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today issued the following statement regarding the controversial film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.
The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to discredit the scientific community which rejects so-called intelligent design theory.
Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler's genocidal madness.
Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry.
The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

ADL chimes in on Stein's anti-evolution film - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Anti-Defamation League chief Abe Foxman has spoken out against Ben Stein’s new anti-evolution film, Expelled. In a press release issued just moments ago, Foxman writes: The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to...

www.jta.org

Stein betrayed his own people to promote his weird religious beliefs.

It's particularly outrageous, since organizations promoting Stein's religious crusade have been led by racists and promoters of eugenics, such as William Tinkle:

The most notable of these anti-evolution eugenics supporters was probably William J. Tinkle, geneticist and prominent Creationist. Tinkle taught at religious LaVerne College and Taylor University, and participated in the activities of the Deluge Society, the first “Creation Science” organization. He then joined forces with the “young lions” of Creationism, Henry Morris, Duane Gish and Walter Lammerts, and with them he was one of the 10 Founding Fathers of the Creation Research Society, which later became the Institute for Creation Research.

Tinkle opposed evolution and Darwinian theory, but was an enthusiastic proponent of eugenics, and published several articles on the subject. In his 1939 textbook “Fundamentals of Zoology” he devotes a section to “The Need of Human Betterment”, where he laments the existence of “defective families” who “give birth to offspring like themselves”, producing “persons of low mentality, paupers and criminals in much greater ratio than the general population”[8, p. 130]. Negative eugenics via institutionalization seems to have been his preferred eugenic solution

It is an excellent plan to keep defective people in institutions for here they are not permitted to marry and bear children.[8, p. 131]
and:
[Scientists who are working at the task of improving the human race] would like to increase the birth rate of families having good heredity, while those people having poor heredity should not marry at all.[8, p. 131]

Dr. West, meet Dr. Tinkle, Creationist eugenicist

pandasthumb.org

and Henry Morris, director of the Institute for Creation Research, who wrote foolish stories about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of "Hamites" (blacks).

Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
Henry Morris, The Beginning of the World p.148

 

[Barbarian]

doesn't deal with the fact that many others did lose their tenure

But no one can show us those. BTW, people lose tenure for a lot of reasons, like failing to publish research, failure to get grants to support graduate students, and the like.

As you have seen, Stein lies a lot.

 

[Barbarian]

this is misinformation about stein - msm does that all the time against people who believe in God

It's not MSM, it's the Antidefamation League, a group of Jewish people who keep an eye on those who smear Jewish people. They were outraged that Stein betrayed his own people by comparing science to Nazism.

i listened to what he had to say - he wasn't betraying his people - he was showing how making people a product of evolution rather than a uniquely created human made in God's image

Both of those are true. You're just unhappy with the way God did it.

is what hitler used to make jews animals that could be disposed of and experimented on

You think Nazis thought only Jews were evolved? That's way weird. Maybe you haven't given this very much thought. Besides, as you just learned, that kind of thinking was from creationists.

 

[Barbarian]

They got his number, and it's right on. He should have given some thought before he tried to compare science to the Holocaust. You doubt that he did it?

Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers [i.e. biologist P.Z. Myers], talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you.

Ben Stein: “…That’s where science leads you” | Secular Right

secularright.org

Small wonder that Jewish Americans were outraged. If anyone is wondering; no, scientists were not telling people to go into the gas chambers. In fact, the people designing and supplying the chambers and gas were large corporations, and the SS were normally running things at the death camps.

 

[Barbarian]

there are of course many reasons why people lose tenure - funny how only those who believe in id or creation are the ones they find reasons to take tenure away from

That's wrong, too:

Tenure is simply a right to due process; it means that a college or university cannot fire a tenured professor without presenting evidence that the professor is incompetent or behaves unprofessionally or that an academic department needs to be closed or the school is in serious financial difficulty. Nationally, about 2 percent of tenured faculty are dismissed in a typical year.

The Truth About Tenure in Higher Education | Diversity Jobs and Employment

You may well have heard about attacks on tenure and college faculty.

diversityinhighereducation.com

Considering that about 0.3% of Biologists are IDers or creationists, and that biologists are a small percent of all tenured scholars, you can see that only a tiny minority of those losing tenure are IDers, even as a majority of tenured IDers/creationists retain tenure.

My first graduate level course in immunology was from an elderly gentleman and a fine person who happened to be a tenured creationist. And this was at a large public university.

Again, Stein is trying to play the victim card, and doing it quite dishonestly.

 

[Truthfrees]

That's wrong, too:

Tenure is simply a right to due process; it means that a college or university cannot fire a tenured professor without presenting evidence that the professor is incompetent or behaves unprofessionally or that an academic department needs to be closed or the school is in serious financial difficulty. Nationally, about 2 percent of tenured faculty are dismissed in a typical year.

The Truth About Tenure in Higher Education | Diversity Jobs and Employment

You may well have heard about attacks on tenure and college faculty.

diversityinhighereducation.com

Considering that about 0.3% of Biologists are IDers or creationists, and that biologists are a small percent of all tenured scholars, you can see that only a tiny minority of those losing tenure are IDers, even as a majority of tenured IDers/creationists retain tenure.

My first graduate level course in immunology was from an elderly gentleman and a fine person who happened to be a tenured creationist. And this was at a large public university.

Again, Stein is trying to play the victim card, and doing it quite dishonestly.

i've listened to too many christian sources that disagree with your pov and provide what i would consider more reliable facts so i will have to disagree with you

 

[Barbarian]

i've listened to too many christian sources that disagree with your pov

Doesn't matter. Data counts. Everyone has an opinion, but not everyone fits the data.

 

[Barbarian]

not proven - it is their pov - which happens to match your pov

Opinions are just opions. But facts are stubborn things.

Zyklon B (the cyanide-based insecticide used in the death camps) was an off-the-shelf product provided by I.G. Farben, a large chemical company. No scientists involved with the new use by Nazis.

Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, said that the use of Zyklon-B to kill prisoners came about on the initiative of one of his subordinates, SS-Hauptsturmführer (captain) Karl Fritzsch, who used the substance to kill some Russian POWs in late August 1941 in the basement of Block 11 in the main camp. The experiment was repeated on more Russian POWs, with Höss watching, in September.[30][31] Block 11 proved unsuitable for mass killings, as the basement was difficult to air out afterwards and the crematorium (Crematorium I, which operated until July 1942) was some distance away.[31] The site of the killings was moved to Crematorium I, where more than 700 victims could be killed at once.[32] By the middle of 1942, the operation was moved to Auschwitz II–Birkenau, a nearby satellite camp which had been under construction since October 1941.[22]

The first gas chamber at Auschwitz II–Birkenau was the "red house" (called Bunker 1 by SS staff), a brick cottage converted to a gassing facility by tearing out the inside and bricking up the windows. It was operational by March 1942. A second brick cottage, the "white house" or Bunker 2, was converted some weeks later.[33][22] According to Höss, Bunker 1 held 800 victims and Bunker 2 held 1,200 victims.[34] These structures were in use for mass killings until early 1943.[35] At that point, the Nazis decided to greatly increase the gassing capacity of Birkenau. Crematorium II, originally designed as a mortuary, with morgues in the basement and ground-level incinerators, was converted into a killing factory by installing gas-tight doors, vents for the Zyklon B to be dropped into the chamber, and ventilation equipment to remove the gas afterwards.[36][c] Crematorium III was built using the same design. Crematoria IV and V, designed from the start as gassing centers, were also constructed that spring. By June 1943, all four crematoria were operational. Most of the victims were killed using these four structures.[37]

The Nazis began shipping large numbers of Jews from all over Europe to Auschwitz in the middle of 1942. Those who were not selected for work crews were immediately gassed.[38] The group selected to die, about three-quarters of the total,[d] included almost all children, women with small children, all the elderly, and all those who appeared on brief and superficial inspection by an SS doctor not to be completely fit.[40] The victims were told they were to undergo delousing and a shower. They were stripped of their belongings and herded into the gas chamber.[34]

Zyklon B - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As you see, Stein merely lied about scientists telling his relatives to go into the gas chambers. He lies with no shame at all.

and i don't trust the ideology behind their or your pov so i will have to continue to disagree

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but no one is entitled to his own facts. There is a reality, and it doesn't depend on opinion.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

stein said nothing like that - your sources are trying to discredit him and doing a poor job of it

Well I don't really understand all that much of what you guys are talking about but I do know this much. Twisting words around and taking things out of context isn't anything new. People just love gossip whether it's true or not I'm afraid.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
As you see, Stein merely lied about scientists telling his relatives to go into the gas chambers. He lies with no shame at all.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but no one is entitled to his own facts. There is a reality, and it doesn't depend on opinion.

stein said nothing like that - your sources are trying to discredit him and doing a poor job of it

Hmmm... let's take a look...

When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers, talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science in my opinion, this is just an opinion that’s where science leads you.

Authors & Poets

quotes.yourdictionary.com

 

[Truthfrees]

Well I don't really understand all that much of what you guys are talking about but I do know this much. Twisting words around and taking things out of context isn't anything new. People just love gossip whether it's true or not I'm afraid.

true - it is too bad that people do that to others - and then broadcast it as truth

 

[Barbarian]

When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers, talking... at QuoteTab

From Ben Stein Quotes: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers, talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any...

www.quotetab.com

National Review on "Expelled"

John Derbyshire of National Review has written about "Expelled." A couple of key paragraphs: I think this willful act of deception has co...

lippard.blogspot.com

Stein, Ben (April 2008). "Ben Stein: 'Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed'". Behind the Scenes; First to Know (Interview). Interviewed by Paul Crouch, Jr. Costa Mesa, CA: Trinity Broadcasting Network. Retrieved 2016-01-19. Event occurs at 26:53.
When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers, talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed ... that was horrifying beyond words, and that's where science in my opinion, this is just an opinion that's where science leads you.

No point in denying it. That's what he said. I'm sure, in retrospect, he wishes he hadn't said it. But there it is; a little window into Stein's soul.

 

[Barbarian]

the 2nd article gives a window in the evolutionist's soul - hatred for anyone who believes in God and creation

And that's wrong. As you see, Stein lied blatantly. That's just a fact. And most people who accept creation as it is, are theistic evolutionists.

nazi germany is a great example of science gone wrong

Rather, Nazi Germany was like the Soviet Union and Ben Stein, at war with science. Germany, in the 30s, saw an exodus of German scientists to the west. Stalin outlawed Darwin and genetics, a disaster that still harms Russian science.

And of course, Stein tells us that it was scientists who put his family into the gas chambers. He betrayed his family and his people, as the Anti-Defamation society made clear in their rejection of his lies.

 

[Truthfrees]

And that's wrong. As you see, Stein lied blatantly. That's just a fact. And most people who accept creation as it is, are theistic evolutionists.

Rather, Nazi Germany was like the Soviet Union and Ben Stein, at war with science. Germany, in the 30s, saw an exodus of German scientists to the west. Stalin outlawed Darwin and genetics, a disaster that still harms Russian science.

And of course, Stein tells us that it was scientists who put his family into the gas chambers. He betrayed his family and his people, as the Anti-Defamation society made clear in their rejection of his lies.

their version of science was barbaric and lacking morality - that is exactly what stein pointed out

hitler embraced darwin - as stein said

evolutionists don't like stein - creationists like his honesty and his pov

 

[jasonc]

I have lost much respect for the adl. just because its for the "jews" doesn't mean that is all a bunch of them. they also listed in ignorance that if I yes I am from the south and have ties to the confederacy were to fly (albeit ignore the history in context) the virginia battle flag that I am a racist and bigot. given, that I am not, some and I was influenced by these and I know a few, that the flag was also about southern pride and represents something other then what is assumed to whit the confederacy and slavery. I don't agree with that but that is a broad brush and being jewish whose lineage (not my surname) as it came from my great grandmother ( great grandad is Russian and came after the war some 30 years) that we fought for the south . I haven't delved into that yet. grandpa died before I go the chance to ask where and who and so forth

 

[jasonc]

the 2nd article gives a window in the evolutionist's soul - hatred for anyone who believes in God and creation

nazi germany is a great example of science gone wrong - aiming to kill rather than heal

I am a creationist, but to assume that those that believe in the toe are against God is too ignore those that do the opposite. there are a few apologist that in fact are toe types. I probably wont ever buy the toe but I also refuse to group people based on what a propensity of the lost do. there are creationist jews, who are as damned as any atheist. visit Chabad.org. a few rabbis take genesis literally and are lost

 

[Barbarian]

their version of science was barbaric and lacking morality - that is exactly what stein pointed out

hitler embraced darwin - as stein said

No. His view of eugenics, for example, had been shown to be scientifically garbage, by Darwinists like Punnett and Morgan. Would you like me to show you that?

evolutionists don't like stein -

Like his co-religionists, scientists find his dishonestly repugnant. Hence, the Anti-Defamation League's denunciation of his slander against scientists.

The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to discredit the scientific community which rejects so-called intelligent design theory.
Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler’s genocidal madness.
Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry.

ADL chimes in on Stein's anti-evolution film - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Anti-Defamation League chief Abe Foxman has spoken out against Ben Stein’s new anti-evolution film, Expelled. In a press release issued just moments ago, Foxman writes: The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to...

www.jta.org

Stein betrayed his own religion and his family, in a foolish attempt to strike out at science.

 

[Barbarian]

the dishonesty is all on the evolutionist side

your articles demonstrate this

Stein, Ben (April 2008). "Ben Stein: 'Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed'". Behind the Scenes; First to Know (Interview). Interviewed by Paul Crouch, Jr. Costa Mesa, CA: Trinity Broadcasting Network. Retrieved 2016-01-19. Event occurs at 26:53.
When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers, talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed ... that was horrifying beyond words, and that's where science in my opinion, this is just an opinion that's where science leads you.

No point in denying it. That's what he said. I'm sure, in retrospect, he wishes he hadn't said it. But there it is; a little window into Stein's soul.

 

[Barbarian]

You can deny it, but it's pretty hard to sell the idea that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League would criticize one of their own for inventing stories about scientists in the Holocaust, if Stein handn't done it.