[__ Science __ ] ben stein on id scientists vs evolution scientists

[Clizby]

That is not what I'm saying at all. We can know some things but some things are beyond our understanding so we postulate theories based on evidences.

Theories are not potulated that is a hypothesis. Theories are well supported by facts and evidence.

There was a time when we believed the world was flat and anyone that disagreed with that belief was considered a nutcase. It was the science of the day but we now know it was not true because we have been able to circumnavigate it many, many times and even see it from as far away as the moon and beyond.

We believed the world was flat before the more modern scientific method developed by Bacon in 1640 or so. It was scientists using the scientific method that determined that the earth was spherical shape. It was the church that persecuted people with this claim.

Do you think that the scientific theory that the earth is a spherical shaped will ever be radically changed? It won't because it is supported by evidence that is overwhelming. Same with gravity and evolution.

Yes, but we still do not know for sure what it is. We can only explain the effect of gravity and that is my point.

Do you think that the equations we have found will ever be radically changed? This is my point. We have supporting evidence for the existence of the phenomena of gravity and that will never be overturned unless the relationships change.

 

[WIP]

Theories are not potulated that is a hypothesis. Theories are well supported by facts and evidence.

We believed the world was flat before the more modern scientific method developed by Bacon in 1640 or so. It was scientists using the scientific method that determined that the earth was spherical shape. It was the church that persecuted people with this claim.

Do you think that the scientific theory that the earth is a spherical shaped will ever be radically changed? It won't because it is supported by evidence that is overwhelming. Same with gravity and evolution.


Do you think that the equations we have found will ever be radically changed? This is my point. We have supporting evidence for the existence of the phenomena of gravity and that will never be overturned unless the relationships change.

The equations demonstrate what we have learned and we developed those equations, so naturally those equations will support our understanding.

In a court of law, there's a reason that it is a fool who serves as his own defense attorney.

 

[Clizby]

The equations demonstrate what we have learned and we developed those equations, so naturally those equations will support our understanding.

In a court of law, there's a reason that it is a fool who serves as his own defense attorney.

What do you mean by this?

 

[WIP]

What do you mean by this?

What I mean is that we are the authors of the mathematics that we use to define or support our theories. Of course the math we develop will support our understanding. We are attempting to explain infallible Godly things by using fallible human understanding.

 

[Clizby]

What I mean is that we are the authors of the mathematics that we use to define or support our theories. Of course the math we develop will support our understanding. We are attempting to explain infallible Godly things by using fallible human understanding.

This is not how science works. We can demonstrate that the equations we have for gravity work for Newtonian Physics and they accurately describe the universe. And we are attempting to explain things because god won't.

 

[WIP]

This is not how science works. We can demonstrate that the equations we have for gravity work for Newtonian Physics and they accurately describe the universe. And we are attempting to explain things because god won't.

Or, just maybe, God has given us a brain with the ability to learn.

 

[Clizby]

Or, just maybe, God has given us a brain with the ability to learn.

We do have a brain so we can learn not just scientific things but morality as well. If you want to demonstrate that God made our brains then go ahead.

 

[WIP]

We do have a brain so we can learn not just scientific things but morality as well. If you want to demonstrate that God made our brains then go ahead.

Not going to debate with you. You either accept or deny the truth.

 

[Clizby]

Not going to debate with you. You either accept or deny the truth.

First, I am not denying God exists. Second, we accept something as true after it has been demonstrated sufficiently for us. Not by faith.

 

[WIP]

First, I am not denying God exists. Second, we accept something as true after it has been demonstrated sufficiently for us. Not by faith.

Who is "us?" I accept God's truth by faith. There is no way for me or anyone else to prove to you the existence of God and there's no middle ground with Him either. That's why I said you either accept it or you deny it. My prayer is that one day you will let down your guard and open your heart up to Him and the Holy Spirit will convict you.

Jesus said, “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Matthew 7:7-8 NKJV

God said, "You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV

 

[Clizby]

Who is "us?" I accept God's truth by faith. There is no way for me or anyone else to prove to you the existence of God and there's no middle ground with Him either. That's why I said you either accept it or you deny it. My prayer is that one day you will let down your guard and open your heart up to Him and the Holy Spirit will convict you.

You make a lot of assumptions about me. There is a middle ground and that is I don't know. Please don;t say that I deny god exists because I don't. I also have no guard up. I simply want sufficient evidence he exists and that he is a moral god.

Why won't God give sufficient evidence for his existence? We cannot tell the difference between a God that will not show himself from a god that does not exist.

Jesus said, “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Matthew 7:7-8 NKJV

God said, "You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV

I tried for a long time. God should know how to convince me he exists.

 

[WIP]

God should know how to convince me he exists.

Therein lies the problem. You are dictating that God Almighty has the responsibility to prove Himself to you. Fact is, He has done that for, "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened." Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

In other words, God has revealed Himself to us all through His creation but we refuse to acknowledge it. Ergo, we deny Him.

 

[Clizby]

Therein lies the problem. You are dictating that God Almighty has the responsibility to prove Himself to you.

No. He does not have to. But I see no other option. Does god want me to be saved? If I new my children would go to hell if they died and I was god I would make sure they knew the realities of it. I ask you. How do I tell the difference between a god that won't reveal himself and a god that doe snot exist?

Fact is, He has done that for,

"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened." Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

In other words, God has revealed Himself to us all through His creation but we refuse to acknowledge it. Ergo, we deny Him.

I refuse to believe something on faith when other explanations are substantiated by evidence. Such as how the earth was formed, life diversified etc.

Please don't say that I deny Gods existence, I do not.

 

[Barbarian]

wiki is not a christian source - it is extremely anti-christian - as i said your sources are suspect

But Stein is not anti-Christian, and he said it on a Christian radio program. So there is that.

 

[Barbarian]

also an exact representation of evolution theory posing as "science"

A scientific theory is an idea or group of ideas, supported by evidence. That's as good as it gets in science. The reason most Christians who are scientists accept evolution is the evidence. Francis Collins, an evangelical Christian who happened to head the Human Genome Project, explains his belief in God as the creator of all things, including evolution.

so i guess we are all left to decide if we believe God and scientists who believe in God

Francis Collins, for example.

or if we want to stand on the precarious perch of believing scientists who want to prove there is no God just as darwin wanted to do

You were misled there; Darwin wrote that God created the first living things:

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species , 1872.