Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Butch5]

Hi All,

In the thread on Conditional Immortality a related subject arose and I was asked to start a thread on it. The subject is the body, soul, and spirit of man and what happens to it at the judgment.

I hold the position of Conditional Immortality which says that man is not innately immortal. Rather the believer will attain a state of immortality, not in an of himself, but rather through continually receiving life from God forever. The wicked will after the judgment be destroyed. The main thrust of this thread will be, what is a man and what happens to him at the judgment.


Many people believe that man is a spirit/soul that lives in a body and moves on after death. In this thread I’m going to use the word “ghost” to describe this spirit/soul state because I think it portray the idea. Another reason is to define the terms. My premise is that man is not a ghost living in a body but rather a physical being. My springboard for this will be Gen.2:7 where God gives us the creation of man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen 2:7 NKJ)

According to Gen 2:7 God formed the man from dust and hat dust formed a lifeless body. God then breathed the breath of life (Neshamah) into the body and that body became a living soul (Neopesh). From this I conclude that man consists of two parts, a body and the breath of life (Neshamah). These two when combined became a living soul. Thus man “IS” a soul, not that he has one, he is one. Body+Breath of Life= Living Soul.

Having come to this conclusion I have to conclude that man cannot live apart from the body. This obviously creates a tension with the view held by mainstream Christianity which believes that man lives on after his death.

I’d like to look at a few passages of Scripture that I believe support this view that I’m expounding.

14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. (Job 34:14-15 NKJ)

The book of Job records that if God were to retrieve His spirit (ruwach) and His breath )Neshamah) all flesh would die and man would return to the dust.

Let me note that both “ruwach” and “Neshamah” mean breath or spirit. The two words are used interchangeably with only slight nuances. I think one thing is very clear from this passage and that is that God is keeping all flesh alive. One thing I’d like to point out here is that the passage says “His” breath (Neshamah), it’s God’s, it belongs to Him. It is the breath of life that He gives to all flesh. It’s not man’s, it’s God’s. We saw in Genesis that man consisted of two parts, a body and the breath of life. The breath of life according to this passage belongs to God. That leaves a body which returns to the dust.

Solomon gives us more information about this.

17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."
18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals."
19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.
21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth1? (Ecc 3:17-21 NKJ)

Solomon said that God test men so that they may see that they are animals. The word like is italicized and is not in the original text. What’s important to notice is that Solomon says of the animals and man that they have one breath (ruwach). We know from Genesis that the one breath belongs to God. He says when they die the same thing happens to them and that they all go to one place. He says they are dust and return to dust. The only difference is that the breath (ruwach) of man, goes upward, and the that of the animal goes downward. I suspect this is because man will be resurrected.

What is important about this passage is that it explains what happens to the component parts of man when he dies. The body returns to the dust and the breath returns to God.

Given what Solomon has stated here and the account of the creation of man I am left to ask, what is left of man to live on? Since both of his components have been accounted for, I am left to conclude that there is nothing to live on after death. Therefore I conclude that man is not conscious after death until the resurrection at which time his body will be put back together and God will once again breathe his breath into man and man will live. We have this very picture given to Ezekiel.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV)

Red = Ruwach

Breath, wind, spirit.

What’s important to note here is that God said He would put “His” ruwach in them and they would live. Here we see people being resurrected and there is as we saw in Gen. 2:7 a body and God’s breath and they live.

In looking at the creation of man and the resurrection of man I see nothing that would indicate that man is anything other than a physical being that is animated by the breath of life from God.

 

[JLB]

Hi All,

In the thread on Conditional Immortality a related subject arose and I was asked to start a thread on it. The subject is the body, soul, and spirit of man and what happens to it at the judgment.

I hold the position of Conditional Immortality which says that man is not innately immortal. Rather the believer will attain a state of immortality, not in an of himself, but rather through continually receiving life from God forever. The wicked will after the judgment be destroyed. The main thrust of this thread will be, what is a man and what happens to him at the judgment.


Many people believe that man is a spirit/soul that lives in a body and moves on after death. In this thread I’m going to use the word “ghost” to describe this spirit/soul state because I think it portray the idea. Another reason is to define the terms. My premise is that man is not a ghost living in a body but rather a physical being. My springboard for this will be Gen.2:7 where God gives us the creation of man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen 2:7 NKJ)

According to Gen 2:7 God formed the man from dust and hat dust formed a lifeless body. God then breathed the breath of life (Neshamah) into the body and that body became a living soul (Neopesh). From this I conclude that man consists of two parts, a body and the breath of life (Neshamah). These two when combined became a living soul. Thus man “IS” a soul, not that he has one, he is one. Body+Breath of Life= Living Soul.

Having come to this conclusion I have to conclude that man cannot live apart from the body. This obviously creates a tension with the view held by mainstream Christianity which believes that man lives on after his death.

I’d like to look at a few passages of Scripture that I believe support this view that I’m expounding.

14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. (Job 34:14-15 NKJ)

The book of Job records that if God were to retrieve His spirit (ruwach) and His breath )Neshamah) all flesh would die and man would return to the dust.

Let me note that both “ruwach” and “Neshamah” mean breath or spirit. The two words are used interchangeably with only slight nuances. I think one thing is very clear from this passage and that is that God is keeping all flesh alive. One thing I’d like to point out here is that the passage says “His” breath (Neshamah), it’s God’s, it belongs to Him. It is the breath of life that He gives to all flesh. It’s not man’s, it’s God’s. We saw in Genesis that man consisted of two parts, a body and the breath of life. The breath of life according to this passage belongs to God. That leaves a body which returns to the dust.

Solomon gives us more information about this.

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV)

Red = Ruwach

Breath, wind, spirit.

What’s important to note here is that God said He would put “His” ruwach in them and they would live. Here we see people being resurrected and there is as we saw in Gen. 2:7 a body and God’s breath and they live.

In looking at the creation of man and the resurrection of man I see nothing that would indicate that man is anything other than a physical being that is animated by the breath of life from God.

Thanks for your work and study on this subject.

I will share some other scriptures that teach about these things as well.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

The spirit of a man will sustain him in sickness, But who can bear a broken spirit? Proverbs 18:14


The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart. Proverbs 20:27

Strong's Number: 05397 -




Definition

1. breath, spirit
   1. breath (of God)
   2. breath (of man)
   3. every breathing thing
   4. spirit (of man)

King James Word Usage - Total: 24
breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1

Man was created in the image of God.

God is Spirit. Man is spirit.


And may not be like their fathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation that did not set its heart aright, And whose spirit was not faithful to God.

This scripture teaches us man has his own spirit independent from God's spirit.

and again -

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and then there is Jesus' teaching about these things -

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6

Two completely different and distinct spirit's are mentioned in this verse. The spirit of God and the spirit of man.

A person's spirit is born again, not their body.


One can not fully explore this subject and ignore these scriptures.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for your work and study on this subject.

I will share some other scriptures that teach about these things as well.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

The spirit of a man will sustain him in sickness, But who can bear a broken spirit? Proverbs 18:14


The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart. Proverbs 20:27

Strong's Number: 05397 -




Definition

1. breath, spirit
   1. breath (of God)
   2. breath (of man)
   3. every breathing thing
   4. spirit (of man)

King James Word Usage - Total: 24
breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1

Man was created in the image of God.

God is Spirit. Man is spirit.


And may not be like their fathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation that did not set its heart aright, And whose spirit was not faithful to God.

This scripture teaches us man has his own spirit independent from God's spirit.

and again -

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and then there is Jesus' teaching about these things -

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6

Two completely different and distinct spirit's are mentioned in this verse. The spirit of God and the spirit of man.

A person's spirit is born again, not their body.


One can not fully explore this subject and ignore these scriptures.


JLB


Hi JLB,

You've not shown where Scripture teaches that man has another spirit other than the one given him of God. The words Ruwach and Neshamah literally mean breath. Sometimes they are used metaphorically and translated spirit. However, even the English word spirit can be used metaphorically. For example one can have school spirit, I don't think anyone understands this as a school having some sort of disembodied consciousness. Paul told the Corinthians that he was with them is spirit.

5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ. (Col 2:5 NKJ)

Surely one wouldn't suggest that Paul's ghost left his body and traveled to Corinth leavening his body as an inanimate lump of clay until it returned. Actually, Paul used the present tense which would mean that his body was animated without his ghost.

These passages have been addressed in the past and I'd gladly address them, but, I'd like first if you'd show where Scriptures teaches that man has a spirit other than the breath of life.

 

[Chopper]

Thanks so much Butch for starting this thread. I want to know a little more about the tree of life and it's sustaining my life in the new heavens. I always wondered about that tree. I'll be posting more in a while, quite frankly JLB's posts are throwing my thinking off a little....doesn't take much at my age.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks so much Butch for starting this thread. I want to know a little more about the tree of life and it's sustaining my life in the new heavens. I always wondered about that tree. I'll be posting more in a while, quite frankly JLB's posts are throwing my thinking off a little....doesn't take much at my age.

You're welcome! I think it's interesting that we see the Tree of Life in the beginning and the end of the Bible. I believe that God's plan has been the same all along. He created Adam to tend the creation but Adam fell into sin. I believe this is still God plan that man will tend the creation in which is the Tree of Life. We see the Tree of Life spoken of in the end of Rev. 22

KJV Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (Rev 22:1-3 KJV)

John speaks of a river of life and on each side is the Tree of Life. I think the Tree of Life is a kind of Tree and not necessarily a single tree (although it could be). The tree bears 12 kinds of fruit which is for the healing of the nations. Revelation touches on this but Ezekiel gives us more information about this river.

KJV Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles. {the waters were...: Heb. waters of the ankles}
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. {waters to...: Heb. waters of swimming}
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. {bank: Heb. lip}
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. {desert: or, plain}
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. {rivers: Heb. two rivers}
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. {shall not...: or, and that which shall not be healed}
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. (Eze 47:1-12 KJV)

This river begins in the temple and flows out to the Dead Sea and Ezekiel says that everything the river touches will live. Right now the Dead Sea has no life because of all of the salt but in that day Ezekiel says it will be teeming with fish just as the great sea (Mediterranean). Hew says that on each side of the river will be trees whose fruit will not be consumed even though it is used for food. He says that the fruit will not be consumed because the waters flow out of the sanctuary. He say the leaves will be for medicine. When we compare this to what John said in Revelation I don't think there is any question they are speaking of the same thing.

God has actually given a small example of this. Engedi which Ezekiel spoke of is an oasis in the desert. In the desert in all of that sand and nothingness a spring wells up out of the ground and created an Oasis and where the water from the spring goes there is life.

 

[Chopper]

OK Butch, I've read your OP several times. I like it very much. You did a good job explaining it so the this dumb sheep could understand it. In traditional Baptist doctrine, when I die and my body goes in the ground, my spirit goes to be with Jesus in heaven. It is there that I'm reunited with my believing loved ones. No one seems to know what kind of spiritual body I'll have, even if there is a spiritual body. You say "Given what Solomon has stated here and the account of the creation of man I am left to ask, what is left of man to live on? Since both of his components have been accounted for, I am left to conclude that there is nothing to live on after death. Therefore I conclude that man is not conscious after death until the resurrection at which time his body will be put back together and God will once again breathe his breath into man and man will live. We have this very picture given to Ezekiel.

So, what do we do with this Baptist doctrine? Are the ones who believe in "soul sleep" correct? I need to know more about this intermediate time after physical death and before the resurrection.

 

[Michael74]

If that's the case, how do you explain this?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 KJV

The soul is presented as something that man cannot do anything to. That makes it different than the body.

 

[Chopper]

If that's the case, how do you explain this?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 KJV

The soul is presented as something that man cannot do anything to. That makes it different than the body.

You are right! Only God can effect the soul, praise His Name.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

If that's the case, how do you explain this?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 KJV

The soul is presented as something that man cannot do anything to. That makes it different than the body.

This text is one of the reasons that why I am a dualist.

 

[Deborah13]

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So in the scripture that JLB quoted that says, spirit, soul, and body, what Paul was really saying was..? seems redundated to me

"I pray God your whole, spirit, spirit, and body be preserved"
"I pray God your whole soul, soul, and body be preserved"

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There is a difference between joints and marrow in the body. It would seem that by comparison there is a difference between the soul and the spirit as well, I think.

 

[Butch5]

OK Butch, I've read your OP several times. I like it very much. You did a good job explaining it so the this dumb sheep could understand it. In traditional Baptist doctrine, when I die and my body goes in the ground, my spirit goes to be with Jesus in heaven. It is there that I'm reunited with my believing loved ones. No one seems to know what kind of spiritual body I'll have, even if there is a spiritual body. You say "Given what Solomon has stated here and the account of the creation of man I am left to ask, what is left of man to live on? Since both of his components have been accounted for, I am left to conclude that there is nothing to live on after death. Therefore I conclude that man is not conscious after death until the resurrection at which time his body will be put back together and God will once again breathe his breath into man and man will live. We have this very picture given to Ezekiel.

So, what do we do with this Baptist doctrine? Are the ones who believe in "soul sleep" correct? I need to know more about this intermediate time after physical death and before the resurrection.

Hi Chopper,

I too was Baptist for most of the time I've been a Christian. I was taught just what you've stated. I've heard different ideas regarding soul sleep and think it may be misleading. The Genesis account says that man "is" a soul which consists of a body and the breath of God. It seems to me that when either or both of these components are missing there is no long a soul. Therefore I don't think the soul literally sleeps. It can be a metaphor for death which is fairly common in the Scriptures.

I don't know what we do with the doctrine, as I see it man is a physical being that is animated by the breath of God. I don't see where there is a spirit in man that "is" the man. Many Christians believe the man is a ghost that lives in a body but can exist outside of the body, I don't see that in Scripture. There are some passages which may accommodate that idea such as those posed by JLB. However, it is my contention that those passage can also be understood in another light that aligns with the position I hold. I will post a few more passage that address this period between death and the resurrection.

David asks rhetorically,

7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
8 Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.
9 Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.
14 LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me?
15 I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted.
16 Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off. (Psa 88:7-16 KJV)

Here David compares the living and the dead in praising the Lord.

15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD. (Psa 115:15-18 KJV)

8 I cried to thee, O LORD; and unto the LORD I made supplication.
9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? (Psa 30:8-9 KJV)


Here Solomon says the dead know nothing and that they have no memory.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 KJV)

Here Isaiah compares the living to the dead,

17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. {for peace...: or, on my peace came great bitterness} {thou hast in...: Heb. thou hast loved my soul from the pit}
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.
(Isa 38:17-19 KJV)

These passages seem indicate pretty clearly to me that there is no consciousness in the grave. When I combine these with the passages that say man returns to the dust I don't see where there is anything that lives on.

 

[Butch5]

If that's the case, how do you explain this?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 KJV

The soul is presented as something that man cannot do anything to. That makes it different than the body.

Hi Michael,

There are several passages like this that can be understood differently and I'll gladly address them. One thing I'd like to point out is that to my knowledge there is nothing in Scripture that "teaches" that man has any spirit other than God's breath of life. Therefore these passages are by way of inference and open to some interpretation. Let me say that the word "soul" is used both figuratively and concretely. In a concrete sense it is literally a breather, a breathing creature. However, it also used in the sense of life. We can see in this passage where it is used of life.

9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
(Act 20:9-10 KJV)

In this passage the word "life" is translated from the Greek word for soul "psuche". That's how I understand it in the passage from Mathew 28. Man can kill the body but a man's life is in God's hands. All people will be resurrected so while a man's body might be killed he will be raised again from the dead. So, while man may kill his body he cannot not destroy his life (soul) because ultimately the man's life (soul) is in God's hands and God will determine when and if the life (soul) along with the body is destroyed. Does that answer your question?

 

[Butch5]

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So in the scripture that JLB quoted that says, spirit, soul, and body, what Paul was really saying was..? seems redundated to me

"I pray God your whole, spirit, spirit, and body be preserved"
"I pray God your whole soul, soul, and body be preserved"

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There is a difference between joints and marrow in the body. It would seem that by comparison there is a difference between the soul and the spirit as well, I think.

Hi Deb,

I think Paul's point it to denote the whole person as he says "sanctify you wholly". As per Gen 2:7 man consists of a body and the breath of life (spirit) and these two combined become a soul. So it would seem to me that he is talking of the whole man and his component parts.

Yes, there is a difference between soul and spirit. The soul being a living being and the spirit that which animates the soul.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

I think Paul's point it to denote the whole person as he says "sanctify you wholly". As per Gen 2:7 man consists of a body and the breath of life (spirit) and these two combined become a soul. So it would seem to me that he is talking of the whole man and his component parts.

Yes, there is a difference between soul and spirit. The soul being a living being and the spirit that which animates the soul.

Thanks Butch, I still listening.

 

[JLB]

You're welcome! I think it's interesting that we see the Tree of Life in the beginning and the end of the Bible. I believe that God's plan has been the same all along. He created Adam to tend the creation but Adam fell into sin. I believe this is still God plan that man will tend the creation in which is the Tree of Life. We see the Tree of Life spoken of in the end of Rev. 22

KJV Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (Rev 22:1-3 KJV)

John speaks of a river of life and on each side is the Tree of Life. I think the Tree of Life is a kind of Tree and not necessarily a single tree (although it could be). The tree bears 12 kinds of fruit which is for the healing of the nations. Revelation touches on this but Ezekiel gives us more information about this river.

KJV Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles. {the waters were...: Heb. waters of the ankles}
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. {waters to...: Heb. waters of swimming}
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. {bank: Heb. lip}
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. {desert: or, plain}
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. {rivers: Heb. two rivers}
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. {shall not...: or, and that which shall not be healed}
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. (Eze 47:1-12 KJV)

This river begins in the temple and flows out to the Dead Sea and Ezekiel says that everything the river touches will live. Right now the Dead Sea has no life because of all of the salt but in that day Ezekiel says it will be teeming with fish just as the great sea (Mediterranean). Hew says that on each side of the river will be trees whose fruit will not be consumed even though it is used for food. He says that the fruit will not be consumed because the waters flow out of the sanctuary. He say the leaves will be for medicine. When we compare this to what John said in Revelation I don't think there is any question they are speaking of the same thing.

God has actually given a small example of this. Engedi which Ezekiel spoke of is an oasis in the desert. In the desert in all of that sand and nothingness a spring wells up out of the ground and created an Oasis and where the water from the spring goes there is life.

That's because Jesus is the Tree of Life.

He is the end and the beginning.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Thanks Butch, I still listening.

 

[Butch5]

That's because Jesus is the Tree of Life.

He is the end and the beginning.


JLB

That's not the position I hold.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for your work and study on this subject.

I will share some other scriptures that teach about these things as well.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

The spirit of a man will sustain him in sickness, But who can bear a broken spirit? Proverbs 18:14


The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart. Proverbs 20:27

Strong's Number: 05397 -




Definition

1. breath, spirit
   1. breath (of God)
   2. breath (of man)
   3. every breathing thing
   4. spirit (of man)

King James Word Usage - Total: 24
breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1

Man was created in the image of God.

God is Spirit. Man is spirit.


And may not be like their fathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation that did not set its heart aright, And whose spirit was not faithful to God.

This scripture teaches us man has his own spirit independent from God's spirit.

and again -

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and then there is Jesus' teaching about these things -

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6

Two completely different and distinct spirit's are mentioned in this verse. The spirit of God and the spirit of man.

A person's spirit is born again, not their body.


One can not fully explore this subject and ignore these scriptures.


JLB

These passages have been addressed in the past and I'd gladly address them, but, I'd like first if you'd show where Scriptures teaches that man has a spirit other than the breath of life.

 

[JLB]

These passages have been addressed in the past and I'd gladly address them, but, I'd like first if you'd show where Scriptures teaches that man has a spirit other than the breath of life.

Thanks for your work and study on this subject.

I will share some other scriptures that teach about these things as well.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms thespirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

The spirit of a man will sustain him in sickness, But who can bear a brokenspirit?Proverbs 18:14


The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart. Proverbs 20:27

Strong's Number: 05397 -




Definition

1. breath, spirit
   1. breath (of God)
   2. breath (of man)
   3. every breathing thing
   4. spirit (of man)

King James Word Usage - Total: 24
breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1

Man was created in the image of God.

God is Spirit. Man is spirit.


And may not be like their fathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation that did not set its heart aright,And whose spirit was not faithful to God.

This scripture teaches us man has his own spirit independent from God's spirit.

and again -

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and then there is Jesus' teaching about these things -

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6

Two completely different and distinctspirit's are mentioned in this verse. The spirit of God and the spirit of man.

A person's spirit is born again, not their body.


One can not fully explore this subject and ignore these scriptures.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for your work and study on this subject.

I will share some other scriptures that teach about these things as well.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms thespirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

The spirit of a man will sustain him in sickness, But who can bear a brokenspirit?Proverbs 18:14


The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart. Proverbs 20:27

Strong's Number: 05397 -




Definition

1. breath, spirit
   1. breath (of God)
   2. breath (of man)
   3. every breathing thing
   4. spirit (of man)

King James Word Usage - Total: 24
breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1

Man was created in the image of God.

God is Spirit. Man is spirit.


And may not be like their fathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation that did not set its heart aright,And whose spirit was not faithful to God.

This scripture teaches us man has his own spirit independent from God's spirit.

and again -

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

and then there is Jesus' teaching about these things -

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6

Two completely different and distinctspirit's are mentioned in this verse. The spirit of God and the spirit of man.

A person's spirit is born again, not their body.


One can not fully explore this subject and ignore these scriptures.


JLB

This scripture teaches us man has his own spirit independent from God's spirit.

I believe you are inferring that. I didn't see anything here that teaches that man has a spirit that is not God's. Notice in every passage you posted spirit is singular. We've already established that man has a spirit in him, it's God's spirit, the breath of life.

It's interesting that you said this,

One can not fully explore this subject and ignore these scriptures.

Yet it seems to me that is just what you've done with all of the passages I've posted.