Boaz
Member
CAPS OK, OK? And I agree with you.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Born again or not
- Thread starter Boaz
- Start date
only by name i can be president of the united states if i just say i am
that dont make anyone a christian. it makes them still lost
Yes, if their faith is unconditional. Many Christians are not unconditional, they are still fearful in their faith. They are still trying to 'claim' validity in this world, and even for a place in heaven.
Boaz
Member
I agree the term Christian has been loosely applied and attached to behaviors and attitudes a life style because they are borrowed from what the Bible teaches about those things. That is unfortunate really. I'm sure some people think they are Christian because they attend church, and as you mentioned, there's a good chance they would never hear any of the substance of true Christianity. Still, without the doctrine of the Bible, it is not Christianity. Another unfortunate thing is that doctrine has pretty much become a bad word.i agree with Reformed05 about the cultural meaning (which I think has faded somewhat, over time) in declaring oneself "Born Again." as a Christian...
I don't think I truly was a Christian, truly forgiven, etc. until after my "Born Again experience," which...felt more like Jesus taking mercy on me and making Himself known to me than it did as if I was making a conscious "decision for Christ." but that's neither here nor there, I suppose.
In terms of self-definition, etc., I suppose one could be a Christian, of sorts, without being Born Again. Respectable religion held sway in much of America during the pre-WWII years...and then after that, some of those in mainline denominations (in particular) were often Christian mostly in cultural, social meanings of the word...some leaders in those denominations questioned the Virgin Birth, The Resurrection, the traditional Christian views of marriage and family...
and now the Presbyterian Church, the Episcopalians, some branches of Lutheranism...have been losing members for decades. :-( oops.
its worth noting, of course, that being in a conservative, traditional church doesn't=genuinely Born Again, necessarily. there's wheat -and- tares all over the place, every denomination. it just seems that the churches that veered off course and ended up tossing Scripture and sound doctrine are...well, in grave danger of dying out.
blah blah blah.... at a personal, individual level...every sinner needs an personal encounter with The Lord to be Born Again and thereby become a Christian. but..in the social/cultural sense, I think one can be a Christian, of sorts, without genuine repentance or...much of anything, really.
how much faith does it take ?
that is the truth
ezrider
Member
Sorry, meant to quote this verse too.
Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Christ is Lord of both those who are born again, the living; and those who are dead in Christ but still remain before the cross.
See Matthew 10:39.
One must lose 'self' to find 'Self'.
To lose ego-self to find spirit-self (Being).
God/Truth is Everything real. Unconditional faith is being prepared to let go of everything to gain Everything. To let go of everything visible for Everything invisible.
have you accomplished this 100 % it takes faith the size of a mustard seed. our faith has to grow . in most cases small steps.. some areas my faith is good some areas is still work in progress Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. yes w/o faith it is impossible to please GOD
Matthew 10:39 King James Version (KJV)
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
these things dont happen over night .but when we get saved our old man dies we become new creation in christ . even the disciples had problems with there faith
i agree with Reformed05 about the cultural meaning (which I think has faded somewhat, over time) in declaring oneself "Born Again." as a Christian...
I don't think I truly was a Christian, truly forgiven, etc. until after my "Born Again experience," which...felt more like Jesus taking mercy on me and making Himself known to me than it did as if I was making a conscious "decision for Christ." but that's neither here nor there, I suppose.
In terms of self-definition, etc., I suppose one could be a Christian, of sorts, without being Born Again. Respectable religion held sway in much of America during the pre-WWII years...and then after that, some of those in mainline denominations (in particular) were often Christian mostly in cultural, social meanings of the word...some leaders in those denominations questioned the Virgin Birth, The Resurrection, the traditional Christian views of marriage and family...
and now the Presbyterian Church, the Episcopalians, some branches of Lutheranism...have been losing members for decades. :-( oops.
its worth noting, of course, that being in a conservative, traditional church doesn't=genuinely Born Again, necessarily. there's wheat -and- tares all over the place, every denomination. it just seems that the churches that veered off course and ended up tossing Scripture and sound doctrine are...well, in grave danger of dying out.
blah blah blah.... at a personal, individual level...every sinner needs an personal encounter with The Lord to be Born Again and thereby become a Christian. but..in the social/cultural sense, I think one can be a Christian, of sorts, without genuine repentance or...much of anything, really.
Quote from Billy Sunday, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile."
This is what it is to be Spiritually born again, transformed from above through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we have died to self and live for the sake of Christ as we mortify this flesh.
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Yep, but they don't know it, or don't want to know it.
Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.
God's truth is straight to the point. It does not wonder.
The truth, and the life is a very narrow way, compared to the broad way of this world. Those who remain humble and meek know how narrow it is. That is why they remain silent, relaxed, allowing, forgiving, loving, and accepting; they are unconditional. They know to be anything else is to be conditional to God.
"Be still and know that I am God; ..." - Psalm 46:10.
Please consider this. It really is not hard to be unconditional. It simply asks us to do nothing about it. We may have a hope, but when unconditional, we accept what comes our way. All that matters to a Christian is loving the Love that loves them; i.e, love God. Anything else is nothing in comparison. With that in mind, not even dying and death has a hold. Christ crucified teaches us that.
stovebolts
Member
I think what you may really be asking is, are there wolves and tares among us. The answer is yes. We will know them by their fruit.
Here is what we see in Acts time after time.
Folk are filled with the Holy Spirit and they unselfishly preach the gospel and more folk are baptised, filled with the Holy Spirit and they unselfishly preach the gospel.
Yes, there are folk like Simon who sneak in for their own gain. These are the wolves and the tares that grow among us.
Boaz
Member
Yes we know because Jesus told us, there would be tares growing among the wheat, so He is not talking about the world around us but within our gatherings. Or people claiming to be one of us, believers, who or not. And He tells us to leave them be lest when we tear them up it takes some of the wheat with it. I think we can all discern the various ways that could happen.
My greatest curiosity was whether or not the meaning of being borne again, as Jesus used it, has worked its way back into the teaching in our pulpits. Evidently not everywhere right? It is important I feel.
I know those who are not of th Reformed beliefs, but at least have an understanding of Jesus's phrase, will differ from me on how the new birth occurs and of course there is no point in getting in an argument over that! The historical term for the new birth event is regeneration, which suggests someone doing something To o For another. Probably why that word went out of fashion!
Christ_empowered
Member
fun fact: during the 1st Great Awakening in the US, (mid-18th century) Calvinism was the dominant form of Christianity. Pastors would keep eyes on the converts for signs of "genuine conversion" and "the inner-workings of The Holy Ghost," etc.
It wasn't until the 2nd Great Awakening (19th century) that new techniques were developed to encourage people to "make a decision for Christ," etc. Nothing against that, overall...the 2nd GA also led to the temperance movement, a push for more rights for women, labor movements, and abolitionism...
but it -is- worth noting that then, as now, many people who "made a decision for Christ" under conditions that excited the emotions, etc....
did not abide in Him, for whatever reason(s). (I lean Calvinist, so...yeah...).
It wasn't until the 2nd Great Awakening (19th century) that new techniques were developed to encourage people to "make a decision for Christ," etc. Nothing against that, overall...the 2nd GA also led to the temperance movement, a push for more rights for women, labor movements, and abolitionism...
but it -is- worth noting that then, as now, many people who "made a decision for Christ" under conditions that excited the emotions, etc....
did not abide in Him, for whatever reason(s). (I lean Calvinist, so...yeah...).
Boaz
Member
I have done a semi in-depth study of the great awakening because the Charismatic churches today (not an indictment, just a fact being stated) often use them as an example to validate some of the manifestations and experiences that occur in their services. Have even bee called by some as another Great Awakening.fun fact: during the 1st Great Awakening in the US, (mid-18th century) Calvinism was the dominant form of Christianity. Pastors would keep eyes on the converts for signs of "genuine conversion" and "the inner-workings of The Holy Ghost," etc.
It wasn't until the 2nd Great Awakening (19th century) that new techniques were developed to encourage people to "make a decision for Christ," etc. Nothing against that, overall...the 2nd GA also led to the temperance movement, a push for more rights for women, labor movements, and abolitionism...
but it -is- worth noting that then, as now, many people who "made a decision for Christ" under conditions that excited the emotions, etc....
did not abide in Him, for whatever reason(s). (I lean Calvinist, so...yeah...).
When Edwards noticed the false manifestations happening, he shut it down. Much good came out of the awakening as you noted. In the first one Edwards was preaching on the sinfulness of us all and how that violates God. By the Holy Spirit some were cut to the quick and those manifestations were weeping or in other ways, recognizable for what they were, as some turned to God, wracked with their own guilt before Him, to save them. Truly a work of the Holy Spirit regenerating some. Edwards never preached without first expounding on the MEANING of a scripture, which took up most of his sermon. Then and only then would he give a much briefer application of that Word. So we know that actual Gospel content was preached. When people came to Jesus during his services it was because they had learned WHO Jesus is and our utter need for Him.
During the second GA as you pointed out, in came the altar call. I have nothing against altar calls IF Gospel content, an expounding on Jesus Himself and His work which He accomplished FOR us is taught first. I have noticed in churches I've attended and of course most tv preachers that is not the case. Most often people are given the opportunity to "invite" Jesus into their life. Which is to me at worst blasphemous and shows no understanding of Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords, at the least topsy turvy. (Again, not an indictment of anyone, just my opinion.) Why do I see it this way? The greater invites the lesser. The owner of the house does the inviting into said house. The one who prepares a banquet, INVITES the guests.
stovebolts
Member
Hi again. Most often you hear regeneration being pushed by those who lean heavily on systematic theology which in my view falls short in many ways. Primarily by way of discernment because systematic theology forces a narrative and context on the text that again in my view does not accurately portray the original narrative to which the original listeners would have heard and understood it.
When I think of being born again, I think about what Jesus says about a kernel of wheat. If it does not fall to the ground, it will not die in order that it be reborn and produce a crop.
This is similar to discipleship and the parable of the sower. We all go through trials but the goal is producing more disciples. Often, that means that we need to endure trials and on occasion, God requires our pruning. It isn't pleasant, but it all works to the good for those who love God.
What can be difficult is discerning a tare and a believer who stumbles and perhaps is going through a trial and is getting choked out. Peter went through the same trials we will all go through and most notably, Peter even goes so far to deny Jesus.
Is this to say Peter wasn't "regenerate" or even to say as much that he was a tare? I dont think so. It was part of his discipleship... The sower casting seed... We all have our weakness and those need to die inside of us so we can fully trust Jesus because it is so much more than our moments of courage when we step out of the boat and we walk on water.
At cf.net, we try to recognise this on other people who call themselves Christians, even if they look very little like Jesus. What we do know is this. The world will know we are Christians by the love we show for one another. Jesus tells us that we will know a tree by it's fruit and that means having enough patience to wait till another season for it to occur.
daninthelionsden
Member
So many wolves and so many tares. Scary and can be lonely really.