Born again or not

[stovebolts]

i only go by what my bible reads

Why then are we not diving deeper into Acts 2 in staying with the narrative?
In Matthew 27:25 we see this same crowd crying for the crucifiction of Jesus. The following Pentecost we see this same crowd come to the realization of their sin. So much, their hearts we're pricked as the gravity of what they had down against God engulfed them.

It is from this perspective they cry out to Peter and ask, "What must we do to be saved".

Peter could have said many different things. However, I believe Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit and spoke the very words God intended for him to say.

And what was Peters response? Did he tell them to close their eyes and say a prayer? With eyes closed, did he tell those who accepted Jesus in their heart to raise their hand and acknowledge that they had just been saved and received the Holy Ghost?

No, what Peter says is they are to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin AND they would receive the Holy Spirit

Let's talk about what's going on in this specific narrative and when we fully understand it as a stand alone story, then lets follow the story and see how God continues to transform Peters thinking which results into Peters actions.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

 

[jerry63935]

acts 2:38 the apostolic love this scripture .. i am not a writer i speak verbal words baptism is a profession of Christ, or a declaration made before the world that they embraced Jesus as their saviour . no place in scripture does it say water saves us once again the basics . the cross of Christ the payment for our SINS. past present future paul rote in 2 cor 5:21 he became sin / a sin offering who knew NO sin that we might be come the righteousness .. no i did not take time to post it correctly ..but the picture is there . the resurrection gives us the regeneration /born again the new life ,
you can cling to water baptism for salvation all you want . i stand by my personal conviction by study. there are many things we can only speculate .

i am not going to hash this out posting back and forth . when i post i do it with flare and that means head on no holds barred . that leads to accusations due to the type wording being used . i john 1:7 says the Blood if we walk in the light . the Blood was applied to the door post so the death angel would pass over . it was the blood that was took into the holy of hollies . not water..... Baptism has its place after salvation not to bring to . i do not like trying to write long post most everything i have learned has been on my own through study . so i stand

 

[jerry63935]

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

this ill send a shock wave but i agree with the above

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin.

along with this as cap apostolics R.C AND FEW OTHERS LEAN HEAVY TOWARDS BAPTISM . goodness some baptist churches believe to join there Church even though you was baptized after being saved.. you must be baptized into there Church.. i asked a lady who is missionary bapt WHERE THAT WAS IN THE Bible .all she could say somewhere in the gospels . for those who think baptism is essential to salvation . so be it but i dont

 

[stovebolts]

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

Respectfully, your missing what is being said. Notice also that you multiplied your words as not to address the clear meaning and narrative in Acts 2.

Those who follow systematic theology use this approach, which is why i generally steer clear and stay tight to the text. My OT theology professor taught us proper exegesis lead to proper redaction which leads to proper theology.

Also notice how sytematic theology focuses in on Baptism alone with that dirty word called works with no mention of repentance while pitting baptism against grace and faith? Why is this?

I understand there are those who will twist baptism into a work and will use it as a line in the sand separating ones salvation from eternity in hell. That is not a biblical narrative either.

So, can we clear the arguments and learn the biblical narrative so we can actually understand what's being said instead of spending so much time defending what it hasn't said?

I dont think Peter is preaching works based salvation in Acts 2. Do you?

 

[jerry63935]

Also notice how sytematic theology focuses in on Baptism alone with that dirty word called works with no mention of repentance while pitting baptism against grace and faith? Why is this?

simply because it does not compute . i laid out the basics cross resurrection the 2 main elements needed with out the shedding of Blood there is No remission of sins . i find no scripture that i am a ware of that says water is a element to salvation . i dont have any more time for this.. e have 4 kids that goes back to Mom . plus i need study make few note as i preach tonight

 

[stovebolts]

simply because it does not compute . i laid out the basics cross resurrection the 2 main elements needed with out the shedding of Blood there is No remission of sins . i find no scripture that i am a ware of that says water is a element to salvation . i dont have any more time for this.. e have 4 kids that goes back to Mom . plus i need study make few note as i preach tonight

Jerry,
Your fighting your own ghosts here.. When i started teaching years ago, i found out that many hold pet doctrines that require being defended. As a result, the clear reading of a passage no longer represented itself, but instead was twisted in defence of their pet doctrine or teaching.

I noticed earlier you railed against baptism because some believe it to be essential to salvation. This saddens me because before we can even discuss acts 2, we have to fight away your ghosts.

Not once have i said baptism is essential. What i said is baptism plays a role in our salvation. Per Acts 2, we see baptism and repentance grouped together. Would you or anyone else go as far as to say repentance also is a work and plays no role in our salvation? I honestly dont think anyone, including yourself would say repentance is a work let alone works based salvation.

As an online community, when do we start maturing in Christ? Or do we simply rehash all the arguments and never really listening to each other let alone scripture?

 

[jerry63935]

Jerry,
Your fighting your own ghosts here..

you just stop right there your violating your own rules . i dont mind disagreements in fact most cases i welcome them.. but were not going there saying i am fighting my own Ghost . i will state my belief once again water baptism follows salvation. i dont know as if i have twisted in defence of their pet doctrine or teaching. i also have ever said baptism is work based but it is type work something we do its repent and then be baptized .to many churches place strong emphasis on baptism to be saved . just as many believe they have to speak in tongues to be saved and have the H.S . which is wrong this is why we have so many denoms .i m out of her time make notes on a subject that will sit like clabbered milk in a stomach

 

[stovebolts]

you just stop right there your violating your own rules . i dont mind disagreements in fact most cases i welcome them.. but were not going there saying i am fighting my own Ghost . i will state my belief once again water baptism follows salvation. i dont know as if i have twisted in defence of their pet doctrine or teaching. i also have ever said baptism is work based but it is type work something we do its repent and then be baptized .to many churches place strong emphasis on baptism to be saved . just as many believe they have to speak in tongues to be saved and have the H.S . which is wrong this is why we have so many denoms .i m out of her time make notes on a subject that will sit like clabbered milk in a stomach

Hmmm, me telling you that your fighting your own ghosts is to simply saying that I'm not making their arguments. Have i put a great emphasis on baptism as an essential requirement of being saved? No i have not. Yet because i said i believe baptism plays a role in our salvation, folks like yourself assume that i am preaching works based salvation. I dont think that's fair to me and i certainly dont think it's fair to the biblical texts.

I have tried to focus on Acts 2, yet we can't even seem to get to the point where we can look at it without spending much time separating ourselves from other denominations and without speaking our pet doctrines over the texts.

If we can simply look at acts 2, can we safely say that Peter is not preaching works based salvation? Or do you believe Peter was wrong when he said they had to repent and be baptised ( in water) for the forgiveness of their sins in order that they receive the Holy Spirit.

I'm asking because you said once they believed, they (those in acts 2) receive the holy spirit and they didn't need to be baptized. You didn't say, but at what point do you believe those in Acts 2 were forgiven? Was it also when they believed Jesus was the Christ?

I guess i just dont understand why we can't talk about Acts 2 without bringing in works based salvation, speaking in tongues, the catholic church etc etc etc? Why can't we simply read these passages at face value and believe them as written instead of pitting scripture against itself.

 

[for_his_glory]

Respectfully, your missing what is being said. Notice also that you multiplied your words as not to address the clear meaning and narrative in Acts 2.

Not sure what you mean by me missing what is being said and multiplying my words. Can you explain what I'm missing? Thank you.

I thought I was clear about Acts 2 as referring to the timing of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost after Christ ascended up to heaven and God sending down the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and those who asked Peter what they should do.

 

[stovebolts]

Not sure what you mean by me missing what is being said and multiplying my words. Can you explain what I'm missing? Thank you.

I thought I was clear about Acts 2 as referring to the timing of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost after Christ ascended up to heaven and God sending down the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and those who asked Peter what they should do.

Your opening comment went straight for Ephesians 2. You said,

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it....

Instead of staying with the narrative in Acts 2, you ascribe baptism as a work and then assign it to Johns Baptism of repentance.

To be clear, you are correct to say Johns Baptism was for repentance. However, Peter clearly groups repentance with baptism FOR the forgiveness of Sins.

We know only God can forgive sins, so why do you think Peter says what he says? Again, Peter is grouping repentance with baptism for the forgiveness of sin. He later goes to say that they will receive the Holy Spirit as a result.

I guess the thing i want to separate is this. Johns Baptism is for repentance. The Baptism Peter is speaking about is not a stand alone command. It involves repentance.

If we want to pull Ephesians 2 into the equation, we know we are saved by Gods grace. But it takes faith to believe that, and obey Gods word. Those in Acts 2 put their faith in Peters words and we're baptized and 3,000 were added to the church that day. I have no doubt they believed they were saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

My question is: is there a difference between being a born again Christian and just a Christian? And if so what is the difference. Of course I know what I believe and how I have viewed it in the past but that is not my point. Would like to hear how others see it.

Hi R,,,,
It should be sufficient to say that we are Christian.
The only problem is that many call themselves Christian because they were born into a Christian family or because they attend a Christian church, for one reason or another.

Jesus said we must be born from above because we must be in tune with God. We cannot see the Kingdom of God if we are not changed in some way to become more like Jesus instead of being more like the "world".

So the term born again has two meaning for me:

1. It serves to denote those that are BELIEVERS of Christ.
2. It serves to allow us to understand that we must be born two times: One physically, and one spiritually.

If we are not born spiritually we cannot see God, or know Him, or follow Him. The term born-again has come into usage...this is fine.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe baptism plays a part in our salvation and within scripture, is normative.

Acts 2: Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We see here that Peter believe both repentance and water baptism play a role in the forgiveness of sins and the promise of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Many misunderstand baptism and it's role in salvation.

Hi S,

I must admit that I really don't understand baptism.
I know that it's something REAL....and not just a symbol to show that one is saved.

John baptized for the forgiveness of sin...for repentance. So we know that somehow baptism forgives sin. Water is all throughout the O.T....It surely means a lot more than we think it does.

Many times Mark 16:16 is sited:

. 16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

It's saying that one must believe FIRST....AND be baptized.
If one does not believe, there is no reason for baptism.

Same as Acts 16:31...one must believe FIRST OF ALL....but we are always told to be baptized.

Jesus said it in Mathew 28:19....we shouldn't need more.

If you have some insight to its role in salvation...could you expound please?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I quit church
Is that okay?

 

[jerry63935]

Christ baptized into the spirit baptism of the spirit into the Body =eternal john baptism was external .there are many things we dont understand . we walk by faith not by sight.. the Bible says our old man goes under the water a type grave .the new man comes up symbolically =resurrection. man/humans like to make mountains out of ant hills. bible tells us in commandment to be baptized. before i baptize i make sure they understand .your saved before you are baptized . i heard a person say its not so much what i dont understand that bothers me.. but its the things i do understand that does

 

[GodsGrace]

I quit church
Is that okay?

Whom are you asking?

I like to tell people that hate church that they could leave church but they shouldn't leave God.

Others might have a different opinion.
You could not go to church and still be born-again.

(although we SHOULD go)

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ baptized into the spirit baptism of the spirit into the Body =eternal john baptism was external .there are many things we dont understand . we walk by faith not by sight.. the Bible says our old man goes under the water a type grave .the new man comes up symbolically =resurrection. man/humans like to make mountains out of ant hills. bible tells us in commandment to be baptized. before i baptize i make sure they understand .your saved before you are baptized . i heard a person say its not so much what i dont understand that bothers me.. but its the things i do understand that does

Is there any value in baptizing an infant IF baptism is real and something is happening ? Like being baptized into the spirit as you've said.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi S,

I must admit that I really don't understand baptism.
I know that it's something REAL....and not just a symbol to show that one is saved.

John baptized for the forgiveness of sin...for repentance. So we know that somehow baptism forgives sin. Water is all throughout the O.T....It surely means a lot more than we think it does.

Many times Mark 16:16 is sited:

. 16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

It's saying that one must believe FIRST....AND be baptized.
If one does not believe, there is no reason for baptism.

Same as Acts 16:31...one must believe FIRST OF ALL....but we are always told to be baptized.

Jesus said it in Mathew 28:19....we shouldn't need more.

If you have some insight to its role in salvation...could you expound please?

I think if we talk about baptism and it's role in salvation, we need to understand it's a normative role and like scripture, it requires discernment. There are no lines in the sand.

Salvation is a holistic topic in that it affects our entire being and we understand that the salvation we receive is by God's grace which has the power to transform us. God doesn't just save us and we go on our merry way but instead, our lives are radically transformed in many ways. I believe baptism normatively plays a role in that transformation.

In order to understand baptism, i think we need to talk about both belief and faith as both of those items, like baptism play a role in our salvation in Gods transforming work.

As a disclaimer, i do not believe that baptism alone saves any more that i believe faith alone saves. I do see baptism as a work, but not the work done by human hands, but rather by the hands of God for we are His workmanship and through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are equipped to continue the work He has prepared for us.

Theologically, i see Baptism as the consumption of the new covenant in Christs blood. As Paul write in Romans, we are buried with Christ. In essence, our old person dies and like Christ was raised from the grave, we are risin in His likeness. Not of our work, but through His power and for His glory.

Much like the Sinai covenant, i see Baptism as the marriage ceremony in which the Holy Spirit is given as a seal.

There is much more, and to comprehensively lay it out would take much time. I honestly dont see that happening because we can't even agree on one simple passage.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think if we talk about baptism and it's role in salvation, we need to understand it's a normative role and like scripture, it requires discernment. There are no lines in the sand.

Salvation is a holistic topic in that it affects our entire being and we understand that the salvation we receive is by God's grace which has the power to transform us. God doesn't just save us and we go on our merry way but instead, our lives are radically transformed in many ways. I believe baptism normatively plays a role in that transformation.

In order to understand baptism, i think we need to talk about both belief and faith as both of those items, like baptism play a role in our salvation in Gods transforming work.

As a disclaimer, i do not believe that baptism alone saves any more that i believe faith alone saves. I do see baptism as a work, but not the work done by human hands, but rather by the hands of God for we are His workmanship and through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are equipped to continue the work He has prepared for us.

Theologically, i see Baptism as the consumption of the new covenant in Christs blood. As Paul write in Romans, we are buried with Christ. In essence, our old person dies and like Christ was raised from the grave, we are risin in His likeness. Not of our work, but through His power and for His glory.

Much like the Sinai covenant, i see Baptism as the marriage ceremony in which the Holy Spirit is given as a seal.

There is much more, and to comprehensively lay it out would take much time. I honestly dont see that happening because we can't even agree on one simple passage.

Please tell me which passage....
I arrived here late.
I'd like to write more on baptism, but in the a.m.

I also don't believe baptism alone saves...I don't really know a church that does.

I like this comment of yours and will think about it:

In order to understand baptism, i think we need to talk about both belief and faith as both of those items, like baptism play a role in our salvation in Gods transforming work.

 

[jerry63935]

Is there any value in baptizing an infant IF baptism is real and something is happening ? Like being baptized into the spirit as you've said.

no no merit in baptizing a infant they %100 pure .they are covered under the blood until they have full understanding. what we call the age of accountability . i would never baptize a infant .i have baptized a 7 year i think it was might ben older really not sure. king David child was taken .he said he could see him again.