Born again or not

[for_his_glory]

Your opening comment went straight for Ephesians 2. You said,

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it....

Instead of staying with the narrative in Acts 2, you ascribe baptism as a work and then assign it to Johns Baptism of repentance.

To be clear, you are correct to say Johns Baptism was for repentance. However, Peter clearly groups repentance with baptism FOR the forgiveness of Sins.

We know only God can forgive sins, so why do you think Peter says what he says? Again, Peter is grouping repentance with baptism for the forgiveness of sin. He later goes to say that they will receive the Holy Spirit as a result.

I guess the thing i want to separate is this. Johns Baptism is for repentance. The Baptism Peter is speaking about is not a stand alone command. It involves repentance.

If we want to pull Ephesians 2 into the equation, we know we are saved by Gods grace. But it takes faith to believe that, and obey Gods word. Those in Acts 2 put their faith in Peters words and we're baptized and 3,000 were added to the church that day. I have no doubt they believed they were saved.

The reason I gave that of Ephesians 2:8 is to show that salvation is not by being dunked in water, but by that of God's grace through faith in Jesus and not by works. Many are taught that you have to work for God's salvation by water baptism being part of those works we need to do in order for God's salvation.

In Acts 2:14-36 Peter was speaking to the crowd on the day of Pentecost telling them these men were not drunk, but explaining that of Joels prophecy being fulfilled in the pouring out of the Holy Spirit that indwelled all of them in the upper room that day. Peter continues preaching Christ to them in whom they did not know and had crucified Him.

All that Peter spoke pricked their hearts and they said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In John's baptism it was not done in the name of Jesus Christ as He hadn't come yet, but done in preparation for the coming of Messiah to prepare you the way to come to Christ through repentance to receive Him as Lord and Savior. Now we read Peter saying to repent first and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is the same thing we read in Acts 10:44-48 that we should not forbid others to be baptized in water, but it is not for receiving the Holy Spirit or for repentance, but symbolic as being washed in the blood of Christ.

Are people adding the word water to Acts 2:38 by traditional teachings as the word water is not there or does it mean being baptized in the Holy Spirit after repenting first, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and then receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

The reason I gave that of Ephesians 2:8 is to show that salvation is not by being dunked in water, but by that of God's grace through faith in Jesus and not by works. Many are taught that you have to work for God's salvation by water baptism being part of those works we need to do in order for God's salvation.

In Acts 2:14-36 Peter was speaking to the crowd on the day of Pentecost telling them these men were not drunk, but explaining that of Joels prophecy being fulfilled in the pouring out of the Holy Spirit that indwelled all of them in the upper room that day. Peter continues preaching Christ to them in whom they did not know and had crucified Him.

All that Peter spoke pricked their hearts and they said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In John's baptism it was not done in the name of Jesus Christ as He hadn't come yet, but done in preparation for the coming of Messiah to prepare you the way to come to Christ through repentance to receive Him as Lord and Savior. Now we read Peter saying to repent first and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is the same thing we read in Acts 10:44-48 that we should not forbid others to be baptized in water, but it is not for receiving the Holy Spirit or for repentance, but symbolic as being washed in the blood of Christ.

Are people adding the word water to Acts 2:38 by traditional teachings as the word water is not there or does it mean being baptized in the Holy Spirit after repenting first, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and then receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

As far as Acts 2 referring to water baptism, it certainly is. Why else would Peter not deny water baptism in Acts 10... I'll touch on that later.

It's irritating that when Acts 2 is brought up, we automatically go in defence mode and feel the need to make the primary focus of the text about what it's not talking about with little to no regard to what it IS talking about. By putting our focus on what it's not, we loose what it is because what it's not becomes the primary focus.

So great, many posts later and hopefully you understand that we are in agreement that we are not saved by our works and that it is Gods grace.

With this mutual understanding, let's recap.

Their question was.
What shall we do to be saved?

Peters response,
Repent AND be baptized ( water ) for the forgiveness of sins.

Again, i do not believe Peter is preaching works salvation. Because I don't believe Peter believes that simply getting dunked in water has any power to save anyone, i have to ask myself this. Why does Peter say what he says?

When we look at the elements to that situation, it starts with sin, then a realization of their sin, then remorse while wanting to make it right. Just like they asked John what they must do to repent, they now ask Peter what they must do to be saved.

Repent...they understood this from Johns teachings but as far as Salvation, they had to ask Peter who said repent and be baptized. It's not John baptism, but it is the baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for only God has the authority to forgive sins.

This does not mean the water has the authority to forgive sins not does it mean baptism is a work of man because man does not have that authority in regard to salvation.

To come full circle, I do not believe getting dunked saves anyone and I don't think Peter believes that either. But i do believe water baptism plays a role in our salvation.

1 Peter 3:21 English Standard Version (ESV)
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[jerry63935]

1 Peter 3:21 English Standard Version (ESV)
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

see paul and silas was asked by the jailer good sirs what must do to be saved.believe on the Lord Jesus Christ .but baptism does not save us... appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, if a person dies before baptism by water.they can still go to heaven .the thief on the cross was not baptized . maybe its just wording but at this point i can only agree in part .the fact we should be baptized but not to be saved

 

[GodsGrace]

no no merit in baptizing a infant they %100 pure .they are covered under the blood until they have full understanding. what we call the age of accountability . i would never baptize a infant .i have baptized a 7 year i think it was might ben older really not sure. king David child was taken .he said he could see him again.

Yes, I have to agree.
Some churches do baptize infants....but they do say that this baptism must be accompanied by belief later on in life or it become of no use.
IF the person DOES become a follower of Christ, then the baptism does count for salvation.

Just to clarify....belief saves...we are baptized because Jesus said to do this.

 

[stovebolts]

see paul and silas was asked by the jailer good sirs what must do to be saved.believe on the Lord Jesus Christ .but baptism does not save us... appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, if a person dies before baptism by water.they can still go to heaven .the thief on the cross was not baptized . maybe its just wording but at this point i can only agree in part .the fact we should be baptized but not to be saved

Do you believe Peter is wrong and Paul is right on the matter?

Here is what i see as the major stumbling block for many. In modern thinking, we have left and right, good and bad, right and wrong. We've lost our ability to discern.

You have continually and repeatedly stated that baptism does not save us which is contrary to what Peter says.

How then can what Peter wrote so very clearly on Baptism and what Paul has written so clearly on grace harmonize without pitting the two against one another?

It's simple really and it only takes a willingness to understand and rightly divide the word of truth above the doctrine of men who seek to divide and cause disharmony through fine sounding arguments.

Instead of looking at baptism as mans work, what if it were Gods work that we are participants in? What if baptism was a means of pouring out the richness of His mercy and grace upon us?

If you ever read any of the early church fathers who sat directly at the feet of the apostles, they speak very differently than modern day discussions. Why? I believe Satan has been busy dividing us to the point of pitting the Apostles teaching against one another instead of having a spirit of unity.

When we look at Peter, he worked with Jews who knew God and knew of Jesus.
Paul, on the other went to those who had never heard of Jesus. Of course, his approach is different, but his message was the same as Peters. Because their audiences required different approaches to the Gospel does not pit their teachings against each other.

 

[for_his_glory]

As far as Acts 2 referring to water baptism, it certainly is. Why else would Peter not deny water baptism in Acts 10... I'll touch on that later.

It's irritating that when Acts 2 is brought up, we automatically go in defence mode and feel the need to make the primary focus of the text about what it's not talking about with little to no regard to what it IS talking about. By putting our focus on what it's not, we loose what it is because what it's not becomes the primary focus.

So great, many posts later and hopefully you understand that we are in agreement that we are not saved by our works and that it is Gods grace.

With this mutual understanding, let's recap.

Their question was.
What shall we do to be saved?

Peters response,
Repent AND be baptized ( water ) for the forgiveness of sins.

Again, i do not believe Peter is preaching works salvation. Because I don't believe Peter believes that simply getting dunked in water has any power to save anyone, i have to ask myself this. Why does Peter say what he says?

When we look at the elements to that situation, it starts with sin, then a realization of their sin, then remorse while wanting to make it right. Just like they asked John what they must do to repent, they now ask Peter what they must do to be saved.

Repent...they understood this from Johns teachings but as far as Salvation, they had to ask Peter who said repent and be baptized. It's not John baptism, but it is the baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for only God has the authority to forgive sins.

This does not mean the water has the authority to forgive sins not does it mean baptism is a work of man because man does not have that authority in regard to salvation.

To come full circle, I do not believe getting dunked saves anyone and I don't think Peter believes that either. But i do believe water baptism plays a role in our salvation.

1 Peter 3:21 English Standard Version (ESV)
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I agree that Peter is not preaching works salvation and this is what I have been trying to say, but maybe explained poorly. Being dunked in water doesn't save anyone nor does it make us Spiritually born again as it's through repentance and a mustard seed of faith through God's grace alone being a free gift that we are saved, Ephesians 2:8.

The Spiritual rebirth from above, John 3:5-7. When one is baptized in water it is a symbol of being purified by God. Being baptized in the Holy Spirit God has now brought you into His kingdom as you are then sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.

John's water baptism was for remission of sin as the water represents the washing away of sin as repentance must come first before immersion. Christ baptism is for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit after you repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior then comes the immersion of the Holy Spirit as it was in the upper room and even today. Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

John's baptism only for repentance = I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance (they had to repent first and then they were immersed in water), prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, (only preparing for Messiah to come, not for the Spiritual rebirth) Matthew 3:1-11.

Christ baptism = for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that could only come down after Jesus ascended up to heaven, then God sent down the Holy Spirit. The disciples returned from the mount called Olivet as they gathered in the upper room where there were 120 men and women all gathered together in one accord who received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that day, Acts 1:1-15; 2:1-4. Then they that gladly received the words Peter spoke were baptized and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That same day there were added about 3000 souls who received God's salvation. Acts 2:41.

I can only assume all 3000 souls that were added that day from Judaea and Jerusalem being Jews had already received John's water baptism out in the wilderness in the river Jordon being the outcome of already repenting of their sins as those 3000 were baptized in the Holy Spirit that day.

Peter said in Acts 10:47 that no Jew should forbid a Gentile who had already received the Holy Ghost to be baptized in water. It seems to me these Gentiles were never immersed in water, but did repent of their sins as they received the Holy Spirit.

So, in conclusion water is not essential for the remission of sins, but only an outward appearance to others of being purified by God.

 

[stovebolts]

We are very close in our understanding. The biggest difference is that i do not feel a need to guard against somebody believing that being dunked in water has any saving power. As a result, I'm not afraid to look at what part water baptism plays in ones salvation.

Peter said in Acts 10:47 that no Jew should forbid a Gentile who had already received the Holy Ghost to be baptized in water. It seems to me these Gentiles were never immersed in water, but did repent of their sins as they received the Holy Spirit.

We understand that Peter needs things revealed to him in certain ways so that he can better understand the will of our Lord. You recall Peter having to be saved when he got out of the boat, and i know you remember when Jesus said, get behind me Satan to Peter and most assuredly you recall Peter denying Christ. Like all of us, Peter needs a nudge once in awhile.

In Acts 2, Peter is ministering to his Jewish brethren. And if you recall, he travelled with Jesus who put an emphasis on the Jews. I know you recall the words of Jesus... To the Jews first, then the gentiles. There are many instances of this, most notably when a gentile woman is likened to a dog.

Back to Peter. He is a minister to the Jews, but he still holds bias to gentiles. This is easily seen in his response to the vision God gave him which prompted his travel to the house of Cornelius. Look at the impact Gods vision had on Peter in verse 28. But look also at the revelation he receives after getting there.

Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Jews require signs because God has always given them signs. When the Holy Spirit was given to these gentiles, it was a sign for Peter as he grasped the magnitude of Gods grace. I believe the pieces really started to fall together. Gentiles were fully able to participate in the new covenant.

Peter replies, Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.

We see here that Peter maintains his connection with receiving the Holy Spirit and water baptism.

In my theology, God can use water baptism with all of the elements Peter describes in Acts 2 and 1 Peter as a means not only for symbolism and outward appearances, but also as a means of transformation in imparting the Holy Spirit.

You see, i see Peter combining the physical and the Spiritual because Gods salvation is holistic.

 

[Boaz]

Do you believe Peter is wrong and Paul is right on the matter?

Here is what i see as the major stumbling block for many. In modern thinking, we have left and right, good and bad, right and wrong. We've lost our ability to discern.

You have continually and repeatedly stated that baptism does not save us which is contrary to what Peter says.

How then can what Peter wrote so very clearly on Baptism and what Paul has written so clearly on grace harmonize without pitting the two against one another?

It's simple really and it only takes a willingness to understand and rightly divide the word of truth above the doctrine of men who seek to divide and cause disharmony through fine sounding arguments.

Instead of looking at baptism as mans work, what if it were Gods work that we are participants in? What if baptism was a means of pouring out the richness of His mercy and grace upon us?

If you ever read any of the early church fathers who sat directly at the feet of the apostles, they speak very differently than modern day discussions. Why? I believe Satan has been busy dividing us to the point of pitting the Apostles teaching against one another instead of having a spirit of unity.

When we look at Peter, he worked with Jews who knew God and knew of Jesus.
Paul, on the other went to those who had never heard of Jesus. Of course, his approach is different, but his message was the same as Peters. Because their audiences required different approaches to the Gospel does not pit their teachings against each other.

Right. When interpreting a difficult scripture you should never pit it against scripture but rather discern it's meaning from scriptures that are more clear. You never pit scripture against scripture. There are no contradictions in the Bible because it is impossible for contradictions to exist in God. There are things that LOOK like contradictions to us but the fault exists in our interpretation.

 

[stovebolts]

Right. When interpreting a difficult scripture you should never pit it against scripture but rather discern it's meaning from scriptures that are more clear. You never pit scripture against scripture. There are no contradictions in the Bible because it is impossible for contradictions to exist in God. There are things that LOOK like contradictions to us but the fault exists in our interpretation.

Have you ever noticed that the things in scripture that we're meant to unite us are now actually dividing us?

It is because tares and wolves are among us and have abused Gods work to elevate their authority to rule the masses and propagate their means of division.. They have distorted Gods word.

 

[for_his_glory]

We are very close in our understanding. The biggest difference is that i do not feel a need to guard against somebody believing that being dunked in water has any saving power. As a result, I'm not afraid to look at what part water baptism plays in ones salvation.


We understand that Peter needs things revealed to him in certain ways so that he can better understand the will of our Lord. You recall Peter having to be saved when he got out of the boat, and i know you remember when Jesus said, get behind me Satan to Peter and most assuredly you recall Peter denying Christ. Like all of us, Peter needs a nudge once in awhile.

In Acts 2, Peter is ministering to his Jewish brethren. And if you recall, he travelled with Jesus who put an emphasis on the Jews. I know you recall the words of Jesus... To the Jews first, then the gentiles. There are many instances of this, most notably when a gentile woman is likened to a dog.

Back to Peter. He is a minister to the Jews, but he still holds bias to gentiles. This is easily seen in his response to the vision God gave him which prompted his travel to the house of Cornelius. Look at the impact Gods vision had on Peter in verse 28. But look also at the revelation he receives after getting there.

Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Jews require signs because God has always given them signs. When the Holy Spirit was given to these gentiles, it was a sign for Peter as he grasped the magnitude of Gods grace. I believe the pieces really started to fall together. Gentiles were fully able to participate in the new covenant.

Peter replies, Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.

We see here that Peter maintains his connection with receiving the Holy Spirit and water baptism.

In my theology, God can use water baptism with all of the elements Peter describes in Acts 2 and 1 Peter as a means not only for symbolism and outward appearances, but also as a means of transformation in imparting the Holy Spirit.

You see, i see Peter combining the physical and the Spiritual because Gods salvation is holistic.

I was actually baptized in water twice as the first time I only did this as I was told I had to in order to be a child of God, pour teaching or I should say little teaching. I didn't feel any different just wet. I did this again a few years later as I thought with the first time it just didn't take as there wasn't any miraculous transformation I was told would happen. The second time it felt different as I felt God washing away my sin as I understood it better.

Anyone that is going to be water baptized should be thoroughly taught first before immersion.

 

[WIP]

I was actually baptized in water twice as the first time I only did this as I was told I had to in order to be a child of God, pour teaching or I should say little teaching. I didn't feel any different just wet. I did this again a few years later as I thought with the first time it just didn't take as there wasn't any miraculous transformation I was told would happen. The second time it felt different as I felt God washing away my sin as I understood it better.

Anyone that is going to be water baptized should be thoroughly taught first before immersion.

I do not discount my own infant baptism as ineffective.

When Lydia was baptized, her whole household was included, not just those above a certain age. (Acts 16:11-15)

When the Philippian jailer was baptized, his whole household (family in the NKJV) was included, not just those above a certain age. (Acts 16:25-34)

Scripture does not tell us if there were children or babies in those families.

 

[Boaz]

Have you ever noticed that the things in scripture that we're meant to unite us are now actually dividing us?

It is because tares and wolves are among us and have abused Gods work to elevate their authority to rule the masses and propagate their means of division.. They have distorted Gods word.

I agree! I see what is contained in the NT as being the very boundaries Jesus has set for His church. Boundaries meaning nothing is to be taken away or added to, which is true of the entire Bible, but an particular the NT is the sum total of Christian doctrine and Godly behaviors and attitude. Unfortunately today there is agreement, unity, on the behaviors and attitudes and most doctrine is thrown out the window and new teaching brought in. These heresies and misunderstandings used to go before councils and synods and bulls, attended by diligent men, dedicated to preserving truth, debated and compared to what the Word actually says, and a conclusion reached. Heresy was condemned for what it was, heresy. That too is gone and great damage is done. Can't have unity if there is nothing solid to hold it together. We have gone so far out in left field I see no hope of that changing but thankfully I'm not God. Look how He brought the dark ages to an end! I'm sure Satan thought he had prevailed against the church that time.

 

[jerry63935]

Do you believe Peter is wrong and Paul is right on the matter?

Here is what i see as the major stumbling block for many. In modern thinking, we have left and right, good and bad, right and wrong. We've lost our ability to discern.

You have continually and repeatedly stated that baptism does not save us which is contrary to what Peter says.

How then can what Peter wrote so very clearly on Baptism and what Paul has written so clearly on grace harmonize without pitting the two against one another?

It's simple really and it only takes a willingness to understand and rightly divide the word of truth above the doctrine of men who seek to divide and cause disharmony through fine sounding arguments.

Instead of looking at baptism as mans work, what if it were Gods work that we are participants in? What if baptism was a means of pouring out the richness of His mercy and grace upon us?

If you ever read any of the early church fathers who sat directly at the feet of the apostles, they speak very differently than modern day discussions. Why? I believe Satan has been busy dividing us to the point of pitting the Apostles teaching against one another instead of having a spirit of unity.

When we look at Peter, he worked with Jews who knew God and knew of Jesus.
Paul, on the other went to those who had never heard of Jesus. Of course, his approach is different, but his message was the same as Peters. Because their audiences required different approaches to the Gospel does not pit their teachings against each other.

i have never said baptism belonged to man

What if baptism was a means of pouring out the richness of His mercy and grace upon us?

i am not saying baptism is not important . i am saying it is not the saving elements is salvation

I believe Satan has been busy dividing us

yuppers i have out lined my point numerous times . there i stand this will never be resolved just like osas osnas /speaking in tongues is evidence you have the Holy Ghost

 

[stovebolts]

I agree! I see what is contained in the NT as being the very boundaries Jesus has set for His church. Boundaries meaning nothing is to be taken away or added to, which is true of the entire Bible, but an particular the NT is the sum total of Christian doctrine and Godly behaviors and attitude. Unfortunately today there is agreement, unity, on the behaviors and attitudes and most doctrine is thrown out the window and new teaching brought in. These heresies and misunderstandings used to go before councils and synods and bulls, attended by diligent men, dedicated to preserving truth, debated and compared to what the Word actually says, and a conclusion reached. Heresy was condemned for what it was, heresy. That too is gone and great damage is done. Can't have unity if there is nothing solid to hold it together. We have gone so far out in left field I see no hope of that changing but thankfully I'm not God. Look how He brought the dark ages to an end! I'm sure Satan thought he had prevailed against the church that time.

There will always be a remnant. The Church of Christ is not a building or a council. It is the very body of Christ and she has endured all these centuries.
Do you recall John 6 when Jesus lost his followers because they were only following him for their material needs (food) and they could not stomach His teachings? Jesus makes it clear in Revelation that He doesn't have a problem removing a candlestick. In other words, it's about quality, not quantity...and few find it.

"Christianity", and i use that term loosely, has risen and has fallen many times and it will continue to ebb and flow as branches are cast off and candlesticks removed.

We will know who the true Children of God are by their love for one another. This is the remnant IMHO.

 

[stovebolts]

yuppers i have out lined my point numerous times . there i stand this will never be resolved just like osas osnas /speaking in tongues is evidence you have the Holy Ghost

Why do you think they will never be resolved?
I say they will never be resolved by men who crave conflict and strive in division.

Let me ask you this. Can you harmonize Peters words with Pauls words?

 

[jerry63935]

once again baptism is symbolic and sacred just like communion and should be done in the anointing leadersheep of the spirit.. to many just blow it off as just a ceremony Baptism a visible sign one has been changed identified with Christ .
let me throw this in acts instructs baptized in the name of jesus .the Gospels name of father son Holy Ghost. the apostolics are very adamant on this to the point of being radical .if not in jesus name its void..
i dont know a great lot about church christ other than what few i have listened to think they are the true Church . i have looked through word search looked at few commentators i consider to be honest up front . every thing point what peter is saying repent and be baptized immersed in water .the remission of sins has done happened before baptized .
once again i stand where i stand peter was a great preacher and has some great writings. he is a been there done that preacher

 

[jerry63935]

Why do you think they will never be resolved?

why do you think it ever will can a baptist or pentecostal preach in a church of christ pulpit and vise versa . in most cases no why is that ?

 

[Butch5]

My question is: is there a difference between being a born again Christian and just a Christian? And if so what is the difference. Of course I know what I believe and how I have viewed it in the past but that is not my point. Would like to hear how others see it.

The term "born again" actually applied to the Jews. The Jews expected to inherit the promises made to Abraham, because they were Abraham's seed. His physical seed. They were born the seed of Abraham. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that simply being the physical seed of Abraham was not sufficient to receive the promises. He says, metaphorically, you must be born again. In other words being born the physical seed of Abraham is not enough there is something more that is necessary. If you look in the Scriptures you'll find that the phrase "born again" is only used of the Jews.

 

[jerry63935]

If you look in the Scriptures you'll find that the phrase "born again" is only used of the Jews.

but it applies to us also the word saved regeneration/converted its all the same thing

 

[Butch5]

but it applies to us also the word saved regeneration/converted its all the same thing

The process of believing and being saved is the same. However, the phrase "born again" was specific to Israel. Israel was already God's son.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

So, they were born of God. Not necessarily is the sense of salvation, but they were His son. However, they needed to be born again. Being the seed of Abraham alone was not sufficient for them to enter into the kingdom.