Born again or not

[Boaz]

The process of believing and being saved is the same. However, the phrase "born again" was specific to Israel. Israel was already God's son.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

So, they were born of God. Not necessarily is the sense of salvation, but they were His son. However, they needed to be born again. Being the seed of Abraham alone was not sufficient for them to enter into the kingdom.

I can see how you would arrive at your meaning of born again. In truth I had never viewed it from that angle. However Jesus was specifically saying that NO ONE could inherit the kingdom of Heaven unless they be born again. The analogy of the wind "born of the Spirit" going where it will speaks of the Holy Spirit causing this new birth. It says elsewhere that those who inherit the kingdom of Heaven must be born not according to the will of man but born from above. Faith in Jesus is evidence of this new birth. So, not for Israel only.

 

[jerry63935]

they needed to be born again. Being the seed of Abraham alone was not sufficient for them to enter into the kingdom.

a spiritual Birth by the spirit

 

[Boaz]

There will always be a remnant. The Church of Christ is not a building or a council. It is the very body of Christ and she has endured all these centuries.
Do you recall John 6 when Jesus lost his followers because they were only following him for their material needs (food) and they could not stomach His teachings? Jesus makes it clear in Revelation that He doesn't have a problem removing a candlestick. In other words, it's about quality, not quantity...and few find it.

"Christianity", and i use that term loosely, has risen and has fallen many times and it will continue to ebb and flow as branches are cast off and candlesticks removed.

We will know who the true Children of God are by their love for one another. This is the remnant IMHO.

When I speak of the Church I mean the visible church, otherwise I will say invisible church. The invisible church is the community of all believers with Christ as it's head. The visible church on earth requires government and oversight in order to function at all. The NT outlines and settles the proper government, though this is another instruction of the NT that almost completely ignored. We do things whichever way we see fit.

 

[Boaz]

When I speak of the Church I mean the visible church, otherwise I will say invisible church. The invisible church is the community of all believers with Christ as it's head. The visible church on earth requires government and oversight in order to function at all. The NT outlines and settles the proper government, though this is another instruction of the NT that almost completely ignored. We do things whichever way we see fit.

And many years ago I noticed how often God speaks of remnants and works through remnants. Something about this has always stirred me deep within and I love it.

 

[Butch5]

I can see how you would arrive at your meaning of born again. In truth I had never viewed it from that angle. However Jesus was specifically saying that NO ONE could inherit the kingdom of Heaven unless they be born again. The analogy of the wind "born of the Spirit" going where it will speaks of the Holy Spirit causing this new birth. It says elsewhere that those who inherit the kingdom of Heaven must be born not according to the will of man but born from above. Faith in Jesus is evidence of this new birth. So, not for Israel only.

But being born of God doesn't necessarily mean being born again. Jesus words were to the Jews. He specifically said that He had come to the Jews. The context of the statement is that of the Jewish nation. As I pointed out they were already born of God once as a nation. Jesus told Nicodemus that wasn't enough. If you have Bible software look up the phrase born again. You'll find that each time Israel is either the subject or the audience. No one in the Scriptures refers to the Gentiles as born again.

 

[Butch5]

a spiritual Birth by the spirit

I don't believe that's what He was referring to. I believe the metaphor, "born again" is a reference to the Resurrection. Paul wrote to the church at Rome,

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

I believe this is what is meant by being born of the Spirit. Paul said that it is by the Spirit that God will raise the believer.

 

[jerry63935]

I don't believe that's what He was referring to. I believe the metaphor, "born again" is a reference to the Resurrection. Paul wrote to the church at Rome,

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

I believe this is what is meant by being born of the Spirit. Paul said that it is by the Spirit that God will raise the believer.

mercy w/o the resurrection there is no new life /birth

 

[Butch5]

mercy w/o the resurrection there is no new life /birth

I agree with you there.

 

[jerry63935]

I agree with you there.

PTL the first agreement of this post

 

[for_his_glory]

I do not discount my own infant baptism as ineffective.

When Lydia was baptized, her whole household was included, not just those above a certain age. (Acts 16:11-15)

When the Philippian jailer was baptized, his whole household (family in the NKJV) was included, not just those above a certain age. (Acts 16:25-34)

Scripture does not tell us if there were children or babies in those families.

What I said here has nothing to do with infant baptism as even I was baptized when I was a baby. But since you brought it up what is infant baptism for as a baby has no sin, even though like everyone else was born with a sin nature. An infant surely is not being made a disciple of Christ for a baby knows not Christ. An infant has no faith in Christ or even would know about being obedient to His commands. As a baby how can they identify themselves with Christ death and burial.

I could go on and on, but the point being infant baptism does not fit the Biblical definition of baptism. Many do dedicate their babies to Christ as the congregation is charged with the uprearing of the child helping to train them in the way they should go, but yet when they are old enough they have to make their own decision to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.

 

[Boaz]

But being born of God doesn't necessarily mean being born again. Jesus words were to the Jews. He specifically said that He had come to the Jews. The context of the statement is that of the Jewish nation. As I pointed out they were already born of God once as a nation. Jesus told Nicodemus that wasn't enough. If you have Bible software look up the phrase born again. You'll find that each time Israel is either the subject or the audience. No one in the Scriptures refers to the Gentiles as born again.

Nobody but Jesus. He came to the Jews FIRST. The OT references you site and the New birth Jesus speaks of are two different things.

 

[for_his_glory]

The term "born again" actually applied to the Jews. The Jews expected to inherit the promises made to Abraham, because they were Abraham's seed. His physical seed. They were born the seed of Abraham. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that simply being the physical seed of Abraham was not sufficient to receive the promises. He says, metaphorically, you must be born again. In other words being born the physical seed of Abraham is not enough there is something more that is necessary. If you look in the Scriptures you'll find that the phrase "born again" is only used of the Jews.

Israel is mainly mentioned throughout scripture, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. This is why our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.

 

[WIP]

What I said here has nothing to do with infant baptism as even I was baptized when I was a baby. But since you brought it up what is infant baptism for as a baby has no sin, even though like everyone else was born with a sin nature. An infant surely is not being made a disciple of Christ for a baby knows not Christ. An infant has no faith in Christ or even would know about being obedient to His commands. As a baby how can they identify themselves with Christ death and burial.

I could go on and on, but the point being infant baptism does not fit the Biblical definition of baptism. Many do dedicate their babies to Christ as the congregation is charged with the uprearing of the child helping to train them in the way they should go, but yet when they are old enough they have to make their own decision to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Confirmation.

Just offering another perspective.

 

[jerry63935]

Just offering another perspective.

all perspectives should be welcomed .i do agree with 4hisglory on infant baptism . stepping away from the topic .it seems many time we can train the child in the way he should go. we should make sure they get plenty of word . it seems a trend when they graduate h.s move on they no longer want anything to do with a church. soon some worldly influences come in. our son is 30 years old single.. lives at our house. helps us out good guy. but you can see some standards that are not all of God. he is still saved no doubt he knows the word. has sit under lots of sound teaching/ preaching . that i bank on God bring things to his remembrance. fact is we need more youth in the Church .

 

[for_his_glory]

But being born of God doesn't necessarily mean being born again. Jesus words were to the Jews. He specifically said that He had come to the Jews. The context of the statement is that of the Jewish nation. As I pointed out they were already born of God once as a nation. Jesus told Nicodemus that wasn't enough. If you have Bible software look up the phrase born again. You'll find that each time Israel is either the subject or the audience. No one in the Scriptures refers to the Gentiles as born again.

Born again by definition means: of a person converted to a personal faith in Christ. This is what Jesus was teaching Nicodemus in John 3:3 that it is a personal relationship knowing Christ and accepting Him as Lord and Savior in order to see the kingdom of God. It's about a person, not whether you are Jew or Gentile, a man or a woman, bond or free, Galatians 3:28, as even Christ reached out to the Gentiles, especially through Paul, as they were converted to Christ by acknowledging Him as Lord and Savior and also baptized in the Holy Spirit.

If being born again is only for the Jew then the rest of us would be condemned to damnation. Read Acts chapter 10 as God is no respecter of person as Peter found out in the vision God gave to him as he considered Gentiles unclean and the Jews should not have anything to do with them.

 

[TonyFaithAlone]

I am having a little trouble following exactly what you are saying/asking so forgive me if I miss it. My perspective is from the Reformed position so take it for what it is. My beliefs, not me saying people who don't believe this way are wrong or trying to change anyone's mind. I can only answer your question from my perspective. I realize I will be subject to verbal attack but I hope that doesn't happen. It is not something I intend to argue about.

Being born again or regenerated means that God, in His grace, has given you the gift of faith. That is, the willingness and ability to put your trust in Jesus for salvation.
Ephesians 2; 1-9 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the Prince of the power of the air, the Spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by NATURE children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were DEAD in trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by Grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the richness of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by Grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Caps above are all mine to draw attention to key words.
It is God who places you in Christ.
And I didn't say God knew His own before the foundation of the world. God said it. Eph. 1:3-6 "Blessed be our God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we as should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will-----"

God of course has already sent His Son who has already died and ascended into Heaven. What God needs to do for us now is something else we cannot to for ourselves. He has to give us Faith to believe. He does this by a work of the Holy Spirit (a new birth in effect that overrides the seed of sin we are born with which is what makes us unwilling to turn to God) who makes us not only able but willing to choose Christ. It takes Faith to believe the things in the Bible. To our carnal minds, it is nonsense. A virgin birth, a resurrection of the dead, a sacrificial death of another to save us. Not sure what you were asking about earthly parents. Obviously they are still our parents. The new birth is not a rebirth of our physical selves. It is a spiritual awakening.

The heart of my question has always been: how do you know whether your faith is a gift from God or the works of your own will? And if faith is not something human can produce on their own then wouldn't that condemn the holy spirit for being injustice because he is essentially charging people of a sin that they can't possibly turn away from in this life since God won't let them believe?

On other thoughts if faith is something that only God can give you then it must solely be for eternal life. Then God has not called everyone everywhere to be his children, but instead he has call the 'non-elected' to avoid religion all together (even pure religion) and tell them to continue to enjoy the pleasure of sins knowing that their hope is only in this life. I say this because the bible say he has given them over to sins because of Idolatry. In order words if they continue to draw nearer to God when they weren't called to be his children then they will just draw nearer to Satan who is the 'god of this world' by default. But then the bible condemn this idea since somewhere it's written, 'God is patience toward you (those who mock God that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a myth), not wishing anyone to die (eternal death) but that everyone to repent.'.

So should the 'non-elect' continue to sin boldly and enjoy life in the most pleasurable way possible? Would you personally counsel someone to do just that so that they won't become 'reprobate' through idolatry by being even more 'reprobated' than the average person? In that case those who weren't called to be God's children and still persist in practicing pure religion are living in 'limbo'. They are essentially 'the walking dead' of society because the non-elect can only enjoy pleasure in sins since they are 'of the flesh' without the slightest capacity to take pleasure in Godliness.

I have tried both ways and I can tell you first-hand that there is nothing in a life of sins but distress and misery (unless you're a living demon)...but a life of Godliness bring clarity of mind and purity of heart. It's the most hopeful and pleasurable thing that a human being can enjoy in this life whether they profess Jesus Christ or nothing. The bible also agrees with me, 'Godliness with contentment is great gain.' and ' blessed are those who hunger and thirst of righteousness. They will be satisfied.'.

What's your take on all this?

P.S: I don't intend to flame anyone. I'm simply probing for what's real and what's fiction.

 

[Boaz]

The heart of my question has always been: how do you know whether your faith is a gift from God or the works of your own will? And if faith is not something human can produce on their own then wouldn't that condemn the holy spirit for being injustice because he is essentially charging people of a sin that they can't possibly turn away from in this life since God won't let them believe?

On other thoughts if faith is something that only God can give you then it must solely be for eternal life. Then God has not called everyone everywhere to be his children, but instead he has call the 'non-elected' to avoid religion all together (even pure religion) and tell them to continue to enjoy the pleasure of sins knowing that their hope is only in this life. I say this because the bible say he has given them over to sins because of Idolatry. In order words if they continue to draw nearer to God when they weren't called to be his children then they will just draw nearer to Satan who is the 'god of this world' by default. But then the bible condemn this idea since somewhere it's written, 'God is patience toward you (those who mock God that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a myth), not wishing anyone to die (eternal death) but that everyone to repent.'.

So should the 'non-elect' continue to sin boldly and enjoy life in the most pleasurable way possible? Would you personally counsel someone to do just that so that they won't become 'reprobate' through idolatry by being even more 'reprobated' than the average person? In that case those who weren't called to be God's children and still persist in practicing pure religion are living in 'limbo'. They are essentially 'the walking dead' of society because the non-elect can only enjoy pleasure in sins since they are 'of the flesh' without the slightest capacity to take pleasure in Godliness.

I have tried both ways and I can tell you first-hand that there is nothing in a life of sins but distress and misery (unless you're a living demon)...but a life of Godliness bring clarity of mind and purity of heart. It's the most hopeful and pleasurable thing that a human being can enjoy in this life whether they profess Jesus Christ or nothing. The bible also agrees with me, 'Godliness with contention is great gain.' and ' blessed are those who hunger and thirst of righteousness. They will be satisfied.'.

What's your take on all this?

P.S: I don't intend to flame anyone. I'm simply probing for what's real and what's fiction.

I don't know what you mean by pure religion but in any case religion is not the way to salvation, Jesus is. And I would never council anyone to sin. There are at least two ways that I am familiar with that people believe on HOW Faith to trust Jesus for salvation comes about. One is that we make that choice (known as a free will choice), the other which you were touching on is that in our fallen condition, our wills also fell and we are unable to make that choice freely. If the first group is right, well and good if you make the choice for Jesus. If the second is right, and you make that choice, then you made that choice because God GAVE you that faith. Either way, you are saved.

And since your questions indicate that your concern is about God doing the choosing, that that in someway puts us in a hopeless and unfair situation I will say this about that. If God is doing the choosing we don't know the who about anyone. Or the why for that matter. Just because someone (and I am a someone, you are a someone)doesn't believe today does not mean they will not believe tomorrow. As to the way we live our life we should do the best that we know how to be, kind and decent, now and let God be God. Never stop desiring Him or needing Him.

 

[TonyFaithAlone]

Why then are we not diving deeper into Acts 2 in staying with the narrative?
In Matthew 27:25 we see this same crowd crying for the crucifiction of Jesus. The following Pentecost we see this same crowd come to the realization of their sin. So much, their hearts we're pricked as the gravity of what they had down against God engulfed them.

It is from this perspective they cry out to Peter and ask, "What must we do to be saved".

Peter could have said many different things. However, I believe Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit and spoke the very words God intended for him to say.

And what was Peters response? Did he tell them to close their eyes and say a prayer? With eyes closed, did he tell those who accepted Jesus in their heart to raise their hand and acknowledge that they had just been saved and received the Holy Ghost?

No, what Peter says is they are to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin AND they would receive the Holy Spirit

Let's talk about what's going on in this specific narrative and when we fully understand it as a stand alone story, then lets follow the story and see how God continues to transform Peters thinking which results into Peters actions.

I don't know what your stand are in regard to the phrase 'repent' in that passage but I see it as 'stop trusting in the works of the law to get you saved. trust in Jesus Christ and be baptized in his name to have peace with God.' So wouldn't you agree that it's dangerous to use that passage as a gospel message for the non-jew audience since they don't follow the Law of Moses nor any of the Jewish customs and festivals to get right with God?

The non-jews will inevitable use this passage to interpret God's call to 'repent' as to simply 'stop listening to your conscience about what's right and wrong (Paul said the conscience is a law to the non-jews' and simply trust in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ and be baptized in his name, then you will get the Holy Spirit and he will guide you through the word of God to know what's right and wrong and protect you from Satan who is trying to corrupt your mind and conscience through sins.

 

[TonyFaithAlone]

I don't know what you mean by pure religion but in any case religion is not the way to salvation, Jesus is. And I would never council anyone to sin. There are at least two ways that I am familiar with that people believe on HOW Faith to trust Jesus for salvation comes about. One is that we make that choice (known as a free will choice), the other which you were touching on is that in our fallen condition, our wills also fell and we are unable to make that choice freely. If the first group is right, well and good if you make the choice for Jesus. If the second is right, and you make that choice, then you made that choice because God GAVE you that faith. Either way, you are saved.

And since your questions indicate that your concern is about God doing the choosing, that that in someway puts us in a hopeless and unfair situation I will say this about that. If God is doing the choosing we don't know the who about anyone. Or the why for that matter. Just because someone (and I am a someone, you are a someone)doesn't believe today does not mean they will not believe tomorrow. As to the way we live our life we should do the best that we know how to be, kind and decent, now and let God be God. Never stop desiring Him or needing Him.

You have just described pure religion in your last paragraph about 'being good and doing what's right, and helping those in need without any pretense of selfish motives.'.

You have left Satan out of the discussion. I don't know if you did that intentionally or not but do you believe he exists and that he is the 'god of this world' and God has subjected those outside of Jesus Christ to him as slaves?

I believe there is a way to 'test the spirits' according to the bible. It goes something like this: 'if someone does not confess that Jesus has come in the flesh he does not belong to God...he is of the anti-Christ.'. I take that to mean 'if someone does not confess that Jesus Christ died for the sins of everyone and those who accept and confess him as personal Lord and Savoir will be saved. Because the resurrection of Jesus Christ demonstrated God's seal of approval on his work.'.

My main concern is not with God having the right to give the gift of faith to whomever he will. My main concern is 'are you worshiping the God of abraham, isaac, and jacob through your good efforts or are you worshiping Satan, the God of this world?'...the bible did write something about the end times being horrible because everyone whose name isn't written in the book of the lamb of God will worship Satan because apparently 'his power is so irresistible (1 John 5:18)' that unless you got the holy spirit protecting you, you will end up doing good to draw close to him 'worship imply some form of separation from the rest of society for the sake of piety as I understood it from a biblical perspective (2 Corinthians 6:17)'.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: It seem that biblical prophecy is not there to force human to act in a certain way (the reformed view seem to suggest this idea 'the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ'). Rather, it's a gift of God to warn people about impending doom if they listen to human authorities instead of the word of God for guidance in things unseen. Otherwise, God and Satan are accomplices in the destruction of fragile and lost mankind. But the bible condemned that idea 'What has light got to do with darkness? What has Christ got to do with Balial?' even the demons confess 'Leave us alone! What do you have to do with us, Jesus the Nazarene? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are: the Holy One of God! '.

The bible is one simple literature. How can anyone understand it if they don't take things at face value?

 

[Boaz]

You have just described pure religion in your last paragraph about 'being good and doing what's right, and helping those in need without any pretense of selfish motives.'.

You have left Satan out of the discussion. I don't know if you did that intentionally or not but do you believe he exists and that he is the 'god of this world' and God has subjected those outside of Jesus Christ to him as slaves?

I believe there is a way to 'test the spirits' according to the bible. It goes something like this: 'if someone does not confess that Jesus has come in the flesh he does not belong to God...he is of the anti-Christ.'. I take that to mean 'if someone does not confess that Jesus Christ died for the sins of everyone and those who accept and confess him as personal Lord and Savoir will be saved. Because the resurrection of Jesus Christ demonstrated God's seal of approval on his work.'.

My main concern is not with God having the right to give the gift of faith to whomever he will. My main concern is 'are you worshiping the God of abraham, isaac, and jacob through your good efforts or are you worshiping Satan, the God of this world?'...the bible did write something about the end times being horrible because everyone whose name isn't written in the book of the lamb of God will worship Satan because apparently 'his power is so irresistible (1 John 5:18)' that unless you got the holy spirit protecting you, you will end up doing good to draw close to him 'worship imply some form of separation from the rest of society for the sake of piety as I understood it from a biblical perspective (2 Corinthians 6:17)'.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: It seem that biblical prophecy is not there to force human to act in a certain way (the reformed view seem to suggest this idea 'the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ'). Rather, it's a gift of God to warn people about impending doom if they listen to human authorities instead of the word of God for guidance in things unseen. Otherwise, God and Satan are accomplices in the destruction of fragile and lost mankind. But the bible condemned that idea 'What has light got to do with darkness? What has Christ got to do with Balial?' even the demons confess 'Leave us alone! What do you have to do with us, Jesus the Nazarene? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are: the Holy One of God! '.

The bible is one simple literature. How can anyone understand it if they don't take things at face value?

You bring up a lot of things to address! But first learning from the Bible is a lifelong endeavor and no one gets it all. And we are to interpret the plain meaning of the words but you have to consider what type of prose you are reading. There is historical narrative writing, there is wisdom writing as is found in Proverbs, there is poetic, Psalms, there is prophecy. There is analogy, and parables, even sarcasm and rhetorical questions. There is exaggerated language to make point, and descriptive language. There are times when God, because it is His word, stoops down to our level so to speak, and says things in a way we can understand but He doesn't mean it in a literal way. The best way to read the Bible is to ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding. Just make sure you don't get yourself confused with Him. You may ponder a scripture for days before it becomes clear.

If you define pure religion as doing good that's fine. I just call it being a decent human being.

When it speaks of confessing that Jesus Christ came in the flesh it is referring to believing that He is God incarnate, that He was also fully and actually human. There were false teachers going around at the time, claiming to be followers of Christ, who were teaching that His body wasn't real in the sense that ours is. It only appeared to be, thus no actual death or resurrection.

Do I believe Satan is the god of this world? The Bible says that but to get the true meaning you have to compare it to other scriptures. God saying "the earth is mine and all that is in it." So when it says satan is the god of this world it is not saying that he owns this world or ANYTHING in it. It is stating the fact that since Adam and Eve gave in to his temptation, and the entire human race fell in the process, we inherit that seed of sin and we WILL sin. In that way he is the god of this world, not in ownership or control.

We do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through doing good. We worship Him through Jesus. He took the works, which we can never perform perfectly, off the shoulders of believers.
As for the prophecies, well there are many, some have come to pass, some have not yet, so there is no one answer other than it is God telling us how it is. And sure there are warnings but all are really pointing to and telling us about Jesus.

God and satan are NEVER accomplices. And they are not two equal or almost equal powers. Satan can do nothing God doesn't allow Him to do. And that brings up a whole plethora of other questions people don't like to look at and goes far beyond what's our finite minds can grasp and I'm not even going to engage in that conversation