Born Again?

[JohnDB]

In John 3:3 we read that we must be "Born again "

Of water and of Spirit.

Let's discuss people's beliefs about this passage and Nicodemus...

And after a bit I'll throw my two cents in...
(My wonderful wife has gotten my software going again and its wonderful)

I'll post corroborating evidence when I explain mine.
But I want to hear what ya'll think about the section of scripture.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.
The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.

Everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is all Gods word and Holy Spirit dwelling in or falling on and come to Earth in the form of a man in Christ Jesus. It's all Gods grace freely given to all who will believe in that faith that is Christ Jesus as He spoke Gods word (John 12:44-50 living water) and the Prophets and Apostles wrote and testified of what Jesus taught verbally.

It's Gods word that we are made righteous through Him, sanctified, justified and made Holy before Him. No dirty river water can save us, but is only an outward appearance to others that we have been washed clean (made righteous before God) by the blood of the Lamb and the renewing through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

In John 3:3 we read that we must be "Born again "

Of water and of Spirit.

Let's discuss people's beliefs about this passage and Nicodemus...

And after a bit I'll throw my two cents in...
(My wonderful wife has gotten my software going again and its wonderful)

I'll post corroborating evidence when I explain mine.
But I want to hear what ya'll think about the section of scripture.

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus who was Jew, who thought that his physical birth as the seed of Abraham entitled him to the promises that were made to Abraham and his seed. Jesus corrects this wrong thinking by telling him he must be born again. Nicodemus doesn't understand and thinks Jesus means another physical birth. Jesus tells him you must be born of water and the spirit. Being born of water is water baptism. Being born again is a metaphor for the resurrection. He was essentially telling Nicodemus that he would have to enter the new covenant through water baptism and at the resurrection be born of the Spirit. Paul like wise mentions this in Romans.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

 

[ezra]

spiritual birth spiritual change

 

[stovebolts]

In John 3:3 we read that we must be "Born again "

Of water and of Spirit.

Let's discuss people's beliefs about this passage and Nicodemus...

And after a bit I'll throw my two cents in...
(My wonderful wife has gotten my software going again and its wonderful)

I'll post corroborating evidence when I explain mine.
But I want to hear what ya'll think about the section of scripture.

Hey, John looks like a great topic!

For starters, let's look at some context.
John 3:9 (NIV) “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

We first notice that Nicodemus is a teacher, which means he has the entire Bible memorized. Not only that, but he is versed in all of the "commentary" which means he's a pretty smart guy. It also means that somewhere there is a commentary on one or more of the passages, probably within Torah ( first five books of the Bible) that speaks to being born again.

For starters, John uses a Jewish writing style called first mention. When we see a keyword being used in Johns writing, it's almost safe to always go back to the first place in the Bible that word is being used.

Let's look at John 3:16 (NIV) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Love, it's found in Genesis 2:2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

Moriah is where the temple is built in Jerusalem and is said to be where Adam was formed, Jesus being the second Adam.

Without going into great detail, the story in Genesis parallels that off. Jesus.

The writer of Hebrews put it this way, and of course, this has everything to do with faith.

Hebrews 11:17 (NIV)
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Verse 19 is oral tradition aka commentary... Commentary Nicodemus obviously had either dismissed or wasn't taught.

.02

 

[for_his_glory]

Here are a few more OT verses that parallel being born again that Nicodemus should have known, but probably not emphasized as much since Jesus had to explain it to him.

1 Samuel 10:6 And the spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job 25: 4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

 

[Randy]

My thoughts from what I read and from the experience of having the Spirit of Christ in me.

Paul covered this new birth creation in Romans 8.
Jesus also spoke about the Fathers promise.
The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be IN you.
One with Jesus:On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
John identified it with who "God" states are His Children .
"children born NOT of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
The circumcision of the new convent with God.
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.
If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ in them they don't belong to Jesus and they are not in any covenant relationship with God. They are also still slaves to sin.

 

[stovebolts]

In John 3:3 we read that we must be "Born again "

Of water and of Spirit.

Let's discuss people's beliefs about this passage and Nicodemus...

And after a bit I'll throw my two cents in...
(My wonderful wife has gotten my software going again and its wonderful)

I'll post corroborating evidence when I explain mine.
But I want to hear what ya'll think about the section of scripture.

Waiting....

 

[for_his_glory]

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jesus was teaching Nicodemus that it was a Spiritual rebirth or renewal of our spirit that through Gods spoken word we can reconcile our past sins through repentance to be made sinless again before God. We are all born with a sin nature because of sin being introduced into the world through Satan’s deceit when he told Eve it was alright to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil even though God forbid them to eat of it. Our flesh will always sin because the flesh is never in obedience to God.
(John 9:31; Romans 8:6-8)

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit). We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things.
(John 14:26; Colossians 3:1-17)

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us. All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.
(John 10:9; John 1:14; Romans 10:9, 10)

It is not by our works or good deeds that save us for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[JohnDB]

Waiting....

Yeah yeah yeah...

Let's put it this way...
Look at the footnote on most modern translations.

Then look up the Greek genethe anothen and all the definitions of this "anothen" excluding "again"...which actually doesn't make proper Greek grammar. Which is why the footnote exists.

This one expression can be found nowhere else in scripture... especially the Old Testament. (Although a few try to force it into a few scriptures)

And where everyone (including Jesus) speaks about Spirit (AKA Holy Spirit) no one says a word about "water"...so this part must be assumed as "common knowledge" of that day and time. Again another piece to look at from a purely anthropological viewpoint.

These are deductive hermeneutic principles that for whatever reason people tend to dismiss because "we have heard it all before" and "nothing new here".

So...when I get a chance with the laptop tonight I want to explore this.

My wife is working on her novel and I don't want to do anything to dissuade her from doing so...she is an awesome writer and proceeds could actually buy us that retirement farm.
But not to fear...my wife says that I'm getting one for my birthday.

 

[JohnDB]

OK...
Got a shot at the laptop so I can be a bit more verbose than I could from my cell or tablet.

Lets consider some facts from a completely inductive method.

This is the Gospel of John.
John has several themes that run rampant throughout his Gospel. Most of these themes directly address theological arguments of the day and time of Jesus' ministry tour and subsequent fallout.

Some of these themes are outlined in his first Chapter which include:
The identity of Jesus.
The identity of those who follow Jesus (Bene Elohim...John 1:12)

So...If the most likely language that the action took place in was Aramaic then the most likely thing said wasn't in Greek and the Gospel of John (which is actually in Early Latin which is mostly Koine Greek) has been translated by John to begin with. And in fact some of the Oldest Aramaic translations of the New Testament Gospel of John have an expression which is "men derish". Where this expression does have a double entendre of "born again" the primary meaning was "Born from Above" which fits more precisely with one of the Themes of the Gospel of John. Rebirth is more in fitting with Greek Grammar....but John didn't say that Jesus said this...so obviously "Men Derish" is the most likely expression used by Jesus who most definitely had a way with words.

Jesus often taught using prose of some form...Nicodemus' visit and subsequent lesson wouldn't be any exception to the rule. It would mean that the lessons would be more focused and Nicodemus would be at his limit of trying to keep up with the rapid fire lessons and explanations. But as a learned man Nicodemus could drink from a fire hose if necessary...and with Jesus it most definitely be necessary.

All of the Gospels showed a trait of Jesus...a very telling trait.
Anybody who recognized Jesus as being sent by God was instantly rewarded. Anybody who asked Jesus for a miracle received one. Anybody who referred to Jesus as The Son of God especially received a miracle.

Nicodemus came during the evening hours. Which actually is Social Hour in Israel. These guys stay up late! I found it baffling myself as a normal "early riser". When the party boat on the Sea of Gallilee was playing Bon Jovi and other '80's tunes past 11pm it was a tad annoying. Hey, I like Ozzy too...but not at that time of night when all I want to do is sleep. The disco ball was a bit much imho but hey...its their place not mine.

Now Nicodemus came recognizing Jesus' miracles and teaching as being legitimate. Thats in direct defiance of most of the Pharisees and Sadducees and "experts in the Law" aka Grammitons.

Now according to
Moses ben Maimon commonly known as Maimonides there were two different groups of "heroes". And as Israel was known for being a caste based society it should be of special notice. Maimonides came from the 1100's AD...not exactly from that day and time of the action of the Gospel...and he was most definitely Jewish practicing Judaism. He wasn't exactly wrong...but trying to diffuse the huge impact that Christianity had upon the Jewish world. So...relating the truth without being more precise was definitely in his best interests. (He was considered a Polymath or Renaissance Man. Now Maimonides refers to two different groups of "heroes".

The Hassid or Saint
The Hakham or Sage...

Now this is a close approximation of what has been suggested of Anthropologists. The Jews were a meticulous bunch. Everyone and everything had to be categorized. Even the Heroes of Old.
Sometimes God, having pity upon Israel's misery or in keeping with Promises that God had made to Israel, sent different heroes to perform very specific tasks.
Now when someone was a great teacher they were a Hakham...or wise person that everyone listened to...we would generally refer to this person roughly as a Sage. It was more than that as this person could also be an advisor to the King...as in what Joseph did with Pharaoh. Or as in a Judge as described in the book of Judges. Which was half prophet and half leader. Which really isn't exactly what a "Judge" was but more in line with what we think of as a Judge.
Then there are the Hassid or Saint. These guys were men of Action...like Moses or Sampson or Jacob or Isaac or many others I could list here. One of the prerequisites was that they were not just Called but Chosen and that these people were prophesied about before they were born. These "Sons of God" were considered to be very holy and righteous men. Samuel could be sarcastic at times...but like often is the case no one thinks of a "Hero" as being sarcastic when he should be respectful. And "of course the Bible contains no such sarcasm or dry wit being performed by the Heroes".

To be continued

 

[JohnDB]

This notion of a lack of sarcastic comments and dry wit are of course false.

No one even considers the fact that Nicodemus, who recognized Jesus as being sent by God, would be sarcastic to a bona fide messenger of God. And likely he wouldn't be.

But that doesn't mean that Jesus wouldn't be a bit incredulous at Nicodemus' answer back to him.

As the scripture above in for_his_glory 's post shows the conversation...
Lets assume for just a moment that Tyndale nor Erasmus were not correct. And that Jerome was busy pontificating upon the less known double entendre of what Jesus said instead of the main thing people would understand from "born from above" or Born Anew.

What could the Jesus who spoke in parables so that the Pharisees deliberately would not understand what he was saying actually saying? And what could Nicodemus' reply actually mean?

Not that I actually am trying to promote a notion of Calvinism of Election...but a notion of Predestination of having foreknowledge from a God who knows the end of things as well as He knows the Beginning of all things.
The very notion that Nicodemus understood really well of being not just Called but Chosen by God to be a Hassid/Saint and not just a Hakham/Sage or knowledgeable person. Someone who was "Bene Elohim" and was deliberately born of God to perform a very specific task for All of Israel.

Jesus said, "No one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is a Bene Elohim/Born Anew/Born as a messenger with a task to benefit ALL OF ISRAEL...like Moses, Isaac, or Sampson.

As a member of the Sanhidrin, a religious leader, and Rabbi/teacher of the Masses this would seem like empty flattery that Nicodemus did not understand how he could possibly satisfy...even with the double entendre of meaning that Nicodemus would understand half of. (The repenting and becoming a "Child of Abraham" once again. because he was a Rabbi...repenting of a mispent life was not on his agenda...nor did he need to. He was the interpreter of the Law and followed it closely)

This prompted the question that Nicodemus had of how he could possibly do his whole life over again at this point in the game. He would need to. So that his birth could be foretold by prophets, and all of Israel could look forward to his life changing the lives of everyone in Israel.
Now the term Jesus used was a backhanded way of saying Bene Elohim but not THE Son of God which was reserved for the Messiah...and Jesus wanted to make that distinction clear. Jesus knew exactly who he was...and was busy explaining to Nicodemus, who stopped by to make a friend of Jesus, who he truly was.

The answer petrified Nicodemus right down to his core more so than an entire legion of Roman soldiers coming to arrest him ever could. "There's no way possible" comes to mind when being told something like this. I'm sure this was Nicodemus' first thought. One that kept repeating itself through his mind.

While Jesus explains the same lesson he explained about the Sower and the different soils...or in the Old Testament about the Potter and the Clay. The better the quality of the soil the better the harvest or the better the quality of the clay the better the quality of the finished vessel.
That Nicodemus had been born of water and Spirit...

Water...its a backhanded, metaphoric reference to Law.
Moses started this with the sprinkling of the People with the water to cleanse them when he brought with him the "contract" of the first written words of God to the Children of Israel.

Lets look at some expressions...
Genesis
....And the Spirit of God was Hovering/Shaking/Controlling over the face of the "waters" is how scriptures say that God was choosing which laws of physics would rule the Universe.

1Peter:
The Heavens existed and the Earth was formed out of water and by water....(anything God says simply is the Law...even if you argue with it)

Wash her with the water of the Word...
More could be said but suffice it to say that the chapter divisions put into scriptures around the time people were getting access to them was deliberately done to obfuscate the reason why Jesus decided to walk upon the Tehovm/Sea/Abyss of Gallilee.

The natural chapter breaks otherwise coming from the sections of scriptures would indicate a very serious problem with the current state of things with the Holy Roman Empire's church. Nevermind the truth...we are the "good guys".

Soooo

Long and dry reading....but it does propose a more complete understanding of what was said and why it was said than anything else listed above.

and that if you happen to be reading this...you have been Called...and Chosen to do something.

 

[for_his_glory]

First, let's take a look at who Nicodemus was. He was a Pharisee and a member of the Sanhedrin. They were the ruling council of the Jews in Jerusalem and the final court of appeals regarding Jewish law and religion. The Pharisee's always opposed the teachings of Christ, even calling Him a blasphemer. This was the council that wanted Jesus crucified.

Now we see Nicodemus coming to talk with Jesus in the cover of night. Why the night time, because he was afraid the other Pharisees would catch him talking to Jesus. Nicodemus called Jesus a Rabbi and said unto Jesus, we know that thou art a teacher come from God for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

IMO I think the Holy Spirit was pricking him in his heart like those in Acts 2:37 as Jesus went right into telling him that except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus would have know what was written in 1 Samuel 10:6; Job 15:14; Ezekiel 11:19 that parallel John 3:5, but could not understand what Jesus meant about being born again. Jesus explained to him, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

IMO when you read John 7:45-53 I believe Nicodemus was Spiritually born again, but had to hide it from the other Pharisees.

I want to continue in explaining what the word water means.

 

[for_his_glory]

What is meant by the word water.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.
The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.

Everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is all Gods word and Holy Spirit dwelling in or falling on and come to Earth in the form of a man in Christ Jesus. It's all Gods grace freely given to all who will believe in that faith that is Christ Jesus as He spoke Gods word (John 12:44-50 living water) and the Prophets and Apostles wrote and testified of what Jesus taught verbablly.

It's Gods word that we are made righteous through Him, sanctified, justified and made Holy before Him. No dirty river water can save us, but is only an outward appearance to others that we have been washed clean (made righteous before God) by the blood of the Lamb and the renewing through the Holy Spirit.

The Jerusalem Bible
1 John 5:6 Jesus Christ who came by water and blood, not with water only, but with water and blood with the Spirit as another witness since the Spirit is truth 7 so that there are three witnesses, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood and all three of them agree

KJV
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Literal water has nothing to do with salvation as Jesus came by the foretold word of the Prophets, sent by the Father, and signified by the Holy Spirit that lighted upon Him during John's water baptism for the remission of sins, Matthew 3:11-17. Three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, the water (word) and the blood. Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost.

 

[JohnDB]

First, let's take a look at who Nicodemus was. He was a Pharisee and a member of the Sanhedrin. They were the ruling council of the Jews in Jerusalem and the final court of appeals regarding Jewish law and religion. The Pharisee's always opposed the teachings of Christ, even calling Him a blasphemer. This was the council that wanted Jesus crucified.

Now we see Nicodemus coming to talk with Jesus in the cover of night. Why the night time, because he was afraid the other Pharisees would catch him talking to Jesus. Nicodemus called Jesus a Rabbi and said unto Jesus, we know that thou art a teacher come from God for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

IMO I think the Holy Spirit was pricking him in his heart like those in Acts 2:37 as Jesus went right into telling him that except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus would have know what was written in 1 Samuel 10:6; Job 15:14; Ezekiel 11:19 that parallel John 3:5, but could not understand what Jesus meant about being born again. Jesus explained to him, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

IMO when you read John 7:45-53 I believe Nicodemus was Spiritually born again, but had to hide it from the other Pharisees.

I want to continue in explaining what the word water means.

Now this is one of the most common explanations out there.
It's not exactly the first time I've been exposed to this.

And the reason I have explained and stated what I have is based on the fact that this explanation you (and many others) have repeated actually tortures and defies the themes of John and the language of Aramaic. All admitting this but have no other ideas.

Mine actually stays faithful to both and has two other points that would dovetail in seamlessly with Jesus' character that I haven't explained yet.

 

[for_his_glory]

Now this is one of the most common explanations out there.
It's not exactly the first time I've been exposed to this.

And the reason I have explained and stated what I have is based on the fact that this explanation you (and many others) have repeated actually tortures and defies the themes of John and the language of Aramaic. All admitting this but have no other ideas.

Mine actually stays faithful to both and has two other points that would dovetail in seamlessly with Jesus' character that I haven't explained yet.

All I can say is that what I have presented here comes from scripture and not from how others explain it. These are from the things I question of what others have said in the past that I have searched out the scriptures for the answer. Quite frankly what you wrote is way over my head in understanding what you have presented and when I have time I will prayfully sort through all of that which you wrote.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi JohnDB,
Great post and I can appreciate the exegesis (anthropology) you have done both culturally and linguistically.

My thinking is more in line with yours, especially on ben Elohim and election which is outside of modern systematic theology and Calvinism. The Jewish culture was much different than our own and often, a straight reading in the English misses the intent and nuances of the conversation being had.

When Jesus said the son of God, Nicodemus would have heard those words to mean Israel, but I liked how you narrowed that down to saint. It would be interesting to pursue some of what you said about Moses and one day I am sure we will.

The idea of Water in Jewish thought brings a whole spiritual realm with it, including re-birth. In Genesis 1, it can represent primordial chaos to which Gods word brings order. It is a very good Jewish study that is worth trying to understand. I believe it would find a place within what you have written.

Back to the grind!

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

and that if you happen to be reading this...you have been Called...and Chosen to do something.

What do you mean by this JohnDB

When I was in my 20s, I got babtized trying to follow this verse to be born of water, and the importance read of baptism in the bible. I did this without understanding the importance of baptism and continued in a sinful lifestyle.

Since the there are two theories I've heard for being born of water (not including your explaination and a few others in this discussion. Simply that being born at all is being born of water due to a mother's water breaking before birth, and the second that being born of water meant baptism.

However being born of the Spirit, as far as I could tell is out of our control. It is having the Holy Spirit in us. All we can do is hope to be given the Holy Spirit, and ask for it. But as far as I can tell it is not something we can do on our own.

Been enjoying the explainations so far. And wanted to add the foundations that I assume many cone from when reading these verses.

Either way, I want to know what you mean by being called and chosen to do something.

 

[JohnDB]

Lets address this water issue first...and after I do that then I will address this question of "Called and Chosen" because the two are related after a fashion. One without the other won't do you a lot of good. And your questions concerning your Baptism and behavior afterwards can be answered.

I usually use a lot of Hebrew for this explanation...And where I know that Jeff understood it I musta left out a few steps otherwise you would understand a bit better.

Hebrew is a metaphoric language and euphamisms are simply the way that they communicated. Even the characters in the language were once symbols with a particular meaning.

yam....water (singular)
mayim...waters (plural)
Hashamayim.....waters of waters (used to denote the sky)
Hashamayim hashamayim...waters of waters of waters of waters. (reserved for talking about Heaven where God lives)

Then we have different types of water.

Cysterns and stored water....can only be stored for a very limited (short) time as it will become brakish tasting. Very well could make a person sick. Had to be cut with some kind of wine to be drinkable or could possibly be used to make beer...depending upon the age.

Living Water,....This type of water was always considered a gift from God and it was always flowing and moving. (rivers and creeks and springs) It could be the heavy dews that existed in particular times of year that would be heavy enough to water the ground and make the grass grow (often seen in Judah's territory for the Sheep to graze upon also used as a medium of communication in Gideon's tale...) All "Mikveh" were to be fed by living water. It didn't have to move very fast but it must flow. A Mikveh was the ceremonial "bathtub" that was used for the priests to wash in (separate from the Bronze Sea) before putting on the ceremonial robes of office when working in the Temple.

Sea...Abyss...Tehovm. It was what happened to water after man and the unforgiving Earth was finished using it. All water flows into the sea. It washes the "sin" away of the Land and man and carries with it the sin...into the abyss. The "Sea" was always in a state of chaos...always tossing and turning. The wicked are like the sea: Yes, there is no rest for the wicked says the Spirit of the Lord. (Isaiah)
Remember how Jesus walked upon the "Tehovm of Gallilee"? And then the stories relate how Jesus went about breaking some of the Pharisees favorite rules, customs, and Laws.
He was symbolizing his contempt for what the Israelites had done to the Laws that he had given them and then broke a ton of them. They even had a rule about measuring the water for ceremonially washing your hands before you ate.

Water as a symbol "type" of laws or rules can be as loose as a custom or a tradition (Grandpa always carves the lamb at Passover) and vary from household to household or as codified and detailed out as the 613 rules in the "Book of the Law" or Torah. And Jesus went to town on the Pharisees about how their rules created chaos on a regular basis. Context of what is being spoken about always clears up as to which set of laws Jesus or Peter or whomever is speaking about when "water" is used in such a fashion. Of course anytime God speaks it is instant LAW...no argument will be brooked with what God says. (See the scriptures above in a previous post when I speak about water and see how clearly and concisely this explanation fits)

When Jesus said that Nicodemus was "born of water" he meant that Nicodemus had to be born Jewish in order to learn all of God's laws for Holy Living. He had to be born into a household that taught, encouraged and enforced all of God's laws.

When we are Baptized the Pastor usually (but not always) says, "Buried with Christ in Baptism, Raised to walk in Newness of Life"
The Law demands our death for violating the Law...and Christ died for us so that we might have eternal life. The Law convicts us of our treason against our Creator. Being immersed in the Law shows us how we must die for our sins (which are very often very many)

Now to be Called...
Lets look for a minute at Abraham. We could choose from many of the Heroes of Old but he is handy for this one.

First thing that Abraham knew was that he was Called...like many people are. And because Abraham believed God and answered that Call (to leave his homeland and travel west to a Land that God would show him) Abraham became Chosen to be God's friend.

Sampson was Called and Chosen to relieve Philistine oppression of the Israelites before he was born. (What Jesus was saying about Nicodemus) Just like Moses was Called and Chosen to bring the Israelites out of misery (Egypt)

Now...when we come to the passage where Jesus says, "Many are Called but few are Chosen" He is talking about something a bit different.

Now Jesus has already made clear by teaching in Parables that He flat out doesn't want the masses of Israel to turn and be saved. He has rejected them for some very specific reasons. And in the passages leading up to the point where Jesus uses this very "troublesome" phrase it is very clear that these guys who are volunteering to become Telmuhdeem/disciples/Apostles are more enticed by the position of "Following a Rabbi" because they are educated and have succeeded in BethMidrash than they are actually in Jesus himself. Which brings Jesus to say what he said about many being Called but only a few Chosen. Jesus was interested in having them follow...but not to become one of the 12 future leaders.

Now...for the shift in focus here from what was thought to what is now true.
When Nicodemus came to Jesus at night to try and befriend him...he is asking Jesus to be his friend. (without such a dorky question being asked formally)

Lets take a step back and then come back to this.
Abraham served a meal to God. This meal serving is actually a covenant. It symbolizes a peace treaty between the two men. (read about the Gibeonite deception in Joshua) This is why later Abraham became known as God's friend. And today we sing "I am a friend of God's". Right after the meal God did something. He talked to himself with Abraham right there listening in the whole time...kinda speaking to himself and Abraham all at the same time.

Jesus had a habit of granting requests. Anyone who asked for something from Him it was usually granted. Even if it was on behalf of others. If you got Jesus' attention (and there were a variety of ways this could easily be...like directly calling him the Messiah) Jesus would grant you whatever favor that you requested.

So...Nicodemus requested Jesus' friendship. And Jesus then did exactly what God did after eating the meal with Abraham...talked to himself and Nicodemus at the same time.

And afterwards I am about sure that Nicodemus about pissed his pants when he realized what Jesus did and who Jesus really was. Which is one reason why Nicodemus left to go pray and meditate for a loooonnnng time. (yeah...boom)

Now for the "born of water and called and chosen all wrapped up with parables and stories out of the Old Testament....

The "Master Potter" in the Old Testament.
The quality of Clay determines the value of the object a potter can make out of it. Some clay doesn't hold together well and bakes up rather heavy and clunky...made for low rise vessels such as a chamber pot. (something you can sit on and defecate into) Other clay can go really thin and become really high vessels like a wine or oil carafe (not a jar)
The thinness and height of the clay vessel is determined by the clay being worked with. Even broken baked clay has a use to a potter because with it he can shape or carve pots and sometimes color while they are on the wheel being formed. All those broken pieces (which won't hold anything) make the high vessels even prettier and have more value. The Potter will starve to death if all he can make is a few chamber pots. He has to make a lot of pots/vessels and has to make the highest quality/priced vessels possible to get enough money to live off of.

Which brings us to Abimelech. That guy whom Abraham suckered as well as Isaac. Abimelech took Abraham's wife (as he thought it was only his sister) to become his bride...but before the marriage could take place Abimelech had a dream. God told him something. (I kept you from sinning....) IOW your sins were allowed to you to bring you back to HIM.

What God has explained in this story...and to Nicodemus is that our path in life has been carefully crafted and formed for us to perform very specific tasks. (as had Sampson's) God has Called us and Chosen us to do something very specific for Him. It may be a variety of tasks...or it can be part of a reason God is going to use us as a vessel of wrath for the things we have done. (Demonstrating why we shouldn't piss off God) Either way we get to choose a lot of things. We can choose to be angry about our path (as Sampson did) and stubborn about doing what we were made to do...or we can greet it with wide eyed wonder and excuses (as Phillip did when Jesus asked him to get some bread for the 5,000) or we can have the "Passion" as David did when he saw an opportunity to express his anger and outrage at a "son of Anak who should be dead and is blaspheming God and scaring God's army".
Because...the same thing that Elisha had seen and asked for God to open the eyes of his apprentice so he could see the same when the army had surrounded the village in the valley...that the whole valley was filled with soldiers a lot more powerful than this pitiful human army could have a chance against...is very true. What God has planned and called and chosen you to do...you will do...or all of creation will become undone.

 

[JohnDB]

Just as sort of an apology...
I know that I went very fast through a lot of scripture and theological positions in a very long and wordy post. (stuff that most people get lost in)

If I need to clarify any of it...let me know and I will try again.