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Born Again?

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If anyone wants to share some Early Church Fathers' quotes on what they thought born again meant, I would like to know. Also, did they believe in SPRINKLE or DUNK baptism? PS: By early, I mean guys before Augustine.
The "Apostolic Fathers" were the earliest Church Fathers (Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, 1st & 2nd centuries). One could also probably include Justin Martyr.

But they did not write about the New Birth, except for Justin, and he was already speaking of baptismal regeneration: "...We then lead them to a place where there is water and they are reborn in the same way as we were reborn; that is to say, they are washed in the water in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the whole universe, of our Savior Jesus Christ and of the Holy Spirit..."

The Didache is a an early Christian document which speaks of baptism by immersion in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but also presents sprinkling as an alternative in some situations. It does not connect baptism to the New Birth.
 
And by the time the writing Early Church Father's began writing Christianity was already mostly a Gentile religion. The Jews were in their Diaspora. Synagogues had been replaced with gymnasiums. (City center where they would meet)
So they focused on the inclusion of the Gentiles in Judaism.
 
If anyone wants to share some Early Church Fathers' quotes on what they thought born again meant, I would like to know

Also, did they believe in SPRINKLE or DUNK baptism?

PS: By early, I mean guys before Augustine.
Jesus explained how one could be born again or born anew.
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Man calls themselves many things but it is God who states who His children are.

children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

born anew a new creation
"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"
 
Jesus explained how one could be born again or born anew.
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Man calls themselves many things but it is God who states who His children are.

children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

born anew a new creation
"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"
What most people miss here is how Nicodemus recognized Jesus vx the masses who didn't...which is what Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus.

This has more to do with "Blessed are the pure/holy in heart for they shall see God"
 
What most people miss here is how Nicodemus recognized Jesus vx the masses who didn't...which is what Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus.

This has more to do with "Blessed are the pure/holy in heart for they shall see God"
He saw the signs given and knew God had to be with Jesus. Which was in his favor.
 
If anyone wants to share some Early Church Fathers' quotes on what they thought born again meant, I would like to know

Also, did they believe in SPRINKLE or DUNK baptism?

PS: By early, I mean guys before Augustine.
The Didache is the earliest church document believed to have been written by the Apostles themselves and it outlines baptism.

concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

As far as 'born again, I just ordered a 500 page book that parallels Jesus and Hillel. I hope to find a better understanding of the culture and nuance regarding the subject somewhere in that book.
 
A conformist believer or dying to self rising to Christ

I was 17 or so did door to door evangelism and loved God.
I though was emotionally hidden and stayed a bit on the fence
though I would argue for Christ, it was a kind of reticence.
I thought I should get baptised, but clearly my heart or the Lord
said no. 3 years later, after working for the Lord on the mission
field, and seeing Him move greatly I got baptised.

My baptism came after being christened in an anglican church, being
confirmed, so was not my first religious experience.

Baptism is the confirming of a heart change and the rising in Christ,
the opening up to Him and letting Him change us deeply.

What for me is an intriguing question was when was I born again?
And my answer in my walk, many times, each with a deeper experience.
And this is the problem, it is not a one off event, because spiritually
the Lord knows, but we know the growth of life within.

Like asking when did you fall in love with your wife? Many times, and
it grew over time. What I can say is the deeper I go the more scripture
opens up and the emphasis reinforces the work God has done in me, yet
I have zero objectivity, because it is the echo I know, no more. The world
always tries to stay separate, which we of course can never to in Christ.
But then Christ says

8 Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him.
9 Fear the LORD, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing.
Psalm 34:8-9
 
And where everyone (including Jesus) speaks about Spirit (AKA Holy Spirit) no one says a word about "water"...so this part must be assumed as "common knowledge" of that day and time.

Hi. I didn't read all the pages so I might be repeating what someone has already said.

Anyway, I think Jesus was addressing the assumption that because Nico was a teacher of Israel he would already understand what God wants. When Jesus said we should become like little children, I think he was suggesting that the essence of his teachings are not complex. We don't need to have the stature of teachers of Israel to be able to understand what being born again means.

Nico, with all his superior education still didn't get it and ended up saying something quite dumb (should we go back into the womb?). Like so many of us, his mind was stuck on the physical.

It is highly unlikely that the water in this reference refers to water baptism as the context of the conversation has nothing to do with baptism. This would be especially true considering John the Baptist said that he would baptize people with water but that Jesus would baptize with the holy spirit. Mt 3:11.

While Jesus' disciples baptized with water, Jesus himself did not (it's likely that, while he understood water baptism to be an OT custom, he also did not feel that it was something that needed to be forbidden) John 4:2. Paul eventually recognized that water baptism isn't what God is looking for. 1 Cor 1:17.

This is an issue of physical vs spiritual. When a woman gives birth her water breaks. It's a reference to physical birth as opposed to spiritual re-birth. That is the essence of Nico's confusion, which is illustrated by his question regarding going back into the womb.

Being born again isn't just a ritual (like water baptism). It's like becoming a baby all over again and learning an entirely new set of principles. Here's some examples.

In Matthew 23:7-12 Jesus tells the people not to use special titles like father, sir, mr, or teacher for any person on earth. In earthly culture we presumably use these titles as a sign of respect, but it doesn't take much discernment to see that it's more about pride and flattery. All you need to do is to try it and you'll see that people will quickly become very angry if they do not get the special title they think they deserve.

Another example is Jesus' teaching about working for love rather than working for money Matthew 6:24-34. He said we cannot serve two masters, with one master being God and the other master being mammon (i.e. money and the things money can buy).

Another example would be taking the lower seat Luke 14:10. In the world we are taught to go for the best. Our whole economic system is based on the idea that the more we can get for ourselves the better off we will be. Jesus says we should deliberately seek the least.

Another example is loving our enemies Matthew 5:44. In the world we're taught to fight our enemies.

Nearly every teaching of Jesus flows contrary to the values of the world. Being born again means considering these new values and actually practicing them in day-to-day life. Practicing these teachings of Jesus will necessarily cause huge divisions between us and the values of the world. We'll find it more awkward and difficult to fit in (especially regarding the money and titles issues).

But that is part of counting the cost. If you want to be a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven you must practice the values of that Kingdom, but these values are so completely contrary to what we've known all our lives in the worldly system that learning to practice them really does require becoming like a child all over again.

Nico, with all his learning still didn't get it. He had to leave all his previous education and ideals about God behind to learn something completely new. The same will be true for any one of us today.
 
Hi. I didn't read all the pages so I might be repeating what someone has already said.

Anyway, I think Jesus was addressing the assumption that because Nico was a teacher of Israel he would already understand what God wants. When Jesus said we should become like little children, I think he was suggesting that the essence of his teachings are not complex. We don't need to have the stature of teachers of Israel to be able to understand what being born again means.

Nico, with all his superior education still didn't get it and ended up saying something quite dumb (should we go back into the womb?). Like so many of us, his mind was stuck on the physical.

It is highly unlikely that the water in this reference refers to water baptism as the context of the conversation has nothing to do with baptism. This would be especially true considering John the Baptist said that he would baptize people with water but that Jesus would baptize with the holy spirit. Mt 3:11.

While Jesus' disciples baptized with water, Jesus himself did not (it's likely that, while he understood water baptism to be an OT custom, he also did not feel that it was something that needed to be forbidden) John 4:2. Paul eventually recognized that water baptism isn't what God is looking for. 1 Cor 1:17.

This is an issue of physical vs spiritual. When a woman gives birth her water breaks. It's a reference to physical birth as opposed to spiritual re-birth. That is the essence of Nico's confusion, which is illustrated by his question regarding going back into the womb.

Being born again isn't just a ritual (like water baptism). It's like becoming a baby all over again and learning an entirely new set of principles. Here's some examples.

In Matthew 23:7-12 Jesus tells the people not to use special titles like father, sir, mr, or teacher for any person on earth. In earthly culture we presumably use these titles as a sign of respect, but it doesn't take much discernment to see that it's more about pride and flattery. All you need to do is to try it and you'll see that people will quickly become very angry if they do not get the special title they think they deserve.

Another example is Jesus' teaching about working for love rather than working for money Matthew 6:24-34. He said we cannot serve two masters, with one master being God and the other master being mammon (i.e. money and the things money can buy).

Another example would be taking the lower seat Luke 14:10. In the world we are taught to go for the best. Our whole economic system is based on the idea that the more we can get for ourselves the better off we will be. Jesus says we should deliberately seek the least.

Another example is loving our enemies Matthew 5:44. In the world we're taught to fight our enemies.

Nearly every teaching of Jesus flows contrary to the values of the world. Being born again means considering these new values and actually practicing them in day-to-day life. Practicing these teachings of Jesus will necessarily cause huge divisions between us and the values of the world. We'll find it more awkward and difficult to fit in (especially regarding the money and titles issues).

But that is part of counting the cost. If you want to be a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven you must practice the values of that Kingdom, but these values are so completely contrary to what we've known all our lives in the worldly system that learning to practice them really does require becoming like a child all over again.

Nico, with all his learning still didn't get it. He had to leave all his previous education and ideals about God behind to learn something completely new. The same will be true for any one of us today.
You will have to go back and read some of my loooong posts with facts and supporting evidence.
 
You will have to go back and read some of my loooong posts with facts and supporting evidence.

But, I posted lots of facts and supporting evidence. Obedience to the teachings of Jesus is what being born again means in practical terms. It's not a spiritual state or ritual. It's a whole new way of life. I listed some teachings of Jesus as practical examples of how obedience to him will cause us to behave in ways contrary to how the world behaves.

The ways of Jesus are shocking and strange to most people, but that's because they have not been born again. They have not become like little children learning a new set of behavioral values all over again.

I'd like to hear what you think of the examples I gave to support my conclusion that following Jesus should produce change in lifestyle.
 
But, I posted lots of facts and supporting evidence. Obedience to the teachings of Jesus is what being born again means in practical terms. It's not a spiritual state or ritual. It's a whole new way of life. I listed some teachings of Jesus as practical examples of how obedience to him will cause us to behave in ways contrary to how the world behaves.

The ways of Jesus are shocking and strange to most people, but that's because they have not been born again. They have not become like little children learning a new set of behavioral values all over again.

I'd like to hear what you think of the examples I gave to support my conclusion that following Jesus should produce change in lifestyle.
What I have proposed in the posts that you are refusing to read is that "Born Again" is a mistranslation of the scriptures...and has been because of Origen.
Where it's a great marketing slogan it isn't what Jesus said and it's a great disservice to what Jesus did say and intend.

Where following the instructions Jesus said isn't wrong...
 
What I have proposed in the posts that you are refusing to read is that "Born Again" is a mistranslation of the scriptures

It's not that I'm refusing to read them, but that they are lengthy and complex. I tried skimming them but there's an awful lot there that just doesn't seem relevant to the spiritual principle of becoming a new creature in Christ (i.e. being born again).

Would you mind rephrasing this thing about the mistranslation of being born again?

Where it's a great marketing slogan it isn't what Jesus said and it's a great disservice to what Jesus did say and intend.

Did you see the examples I listed of the teachings of Jesus? Scorning the values of this world and instead seeking to live on less, seeking to become a servant rather than great, seeking to reject the titles of flattery enjoyed by the world, seeking to reject materialism, and seeking to lose our lives; that's hardly a great marketing slogan and yet the ideal of being born again is exactly what would happen if one were to genuinely apply these teachings.

You become a new person living by a completely new set of values.

I understand that much of the church world today has become full of convenient cliches like being born again, spirit filled, washed in the blood, etc but those concepts are still valid even if they are abused by a luke warm church.
 
It's not that I'm refusing to read them, but that they are lengthy and complex. I tried skimming them but there's an awful lot there that just doesn't seem relevant to the spiritual principle of becoming a new creature in Christ (i.e. being born again).

Would you mind rephrasing this thing about the mistranslation of being born again?



Did you see the examples I listed of the teachings of Jesus? Scorning the values of this world and instead seeking to live on less, seeking to become a servant rather than great, seeking to reject the titles of flattery enjoyed by the world, seeking to reject materialism, and seeking to lose our lives; that's hardly a great marketing slogan and yet the ideal of being born again is exactly what would happen if one were to genuinely apply these teachings.

You become a new person living by a completely new set of values.

I understand that much of the church world today has become full of convenient cliches like being born again, spirit filled, washed in the blood, etc but those concepts are still valid even if they are abused by a luke warm church.
Paul addresses the subject of being a new creation in Christ... Jesus does not. Because being a new creation in Christ is something that pertains strictly to Gentiles and not Jews...and Jesus didn't really talk to Gentiles much.
And that isn't the subject of this thread.

The subject of this thread is about what Jesus really did say and why.
I understand that the posts are long. But this mistranslation of the scriptures is over 500 years old and it takes time to get people's minds around the subject.

And if I were you...I wouldn't go with birth being a type of baptism. According to Leviticus 12 it ain't gonna work out.

However a metaphor for being born of God's Laws (water) meaning that the person seems to have always followed God's Laws would be appropriate.
 
Here again are the questions I asked...

---> What are those two things? (The things Jesus told Nicodemus are required to make one born again.)

---> What do Christians call this ritual in which this occurs?
Hey Walpole,
Where you been?
I've missed you.

What are you doing?
Testing us??

Easy test.
Water
Spirit
Baptism

I just got here. If someone already answered...
I'M NOT CHEATING!!!

But how do you feel about infant baptism?
Was good ole' Augustine right in your opinion?
I don't care for good ole' Augustine.
Have we discussed this?
 
Paul addresses the subject of being a new creation in Christ... Jesus does not. Because being a new creation in Christ is something that pertains strictly to Gentiles and not Jews...and Jesus didn't really talk to Gentiles much.
And that isn't the subject of this thread.

The subject of this thread is about what Jesus really did say and why.
I understand that the posts are long. But this mistranslation of the scriptures is over 500 years old and it takes time to get people's minds around the subject.

And if I were you...I wouldn't go with birth being a type of baptism. According to Leviticus 12 it ain't gonna work out.

However a metaphor for being born of God's Laws (water) meaning that the person seems to have always followed God's Laws would be appropriate.
We used to have a member here that always insisted that the water in John 3 was THE WORD.

In the underlined and highlighted above (mine) are you saying he was right !

I'm not sure if he meant God's LAWS
or God's WORD....
 
We used to have a member here that always insisted that the water in John 3 was THE WORD.

In the underlined and highlighted above (mine) are you saying he was right !

I'm not sure if he meant God's LAWS
or God's WORD....
They are the same thing aren't they?

Is there a difference?

Yes...he was right about this.
 
If anyone wants to share some Early Church Fathers' quotes on what they thought born again meant, I would like to know

Also, did they believe in SPRINKLE or DUNK baptism?

PS: By early, I mean guys before Augustine.
The Didache, which was probably written about 90 AD,
says that any type of water could be used.

Running water would be best,,,but if not available, sprinkling is fine.
I must say that I've never heard of fasting before baptism. Seems like the church started to change right after all the Apostles had died.

The section of the Didache dealing with baptism (Chapter 7, verses 1-4) :

(1) Concerning baptism, baptize in this way. After you have spoken all these things, “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” in running water.
(2) If you do not have running water, baptize [baptizon] in other water. If you are not able in cold, then in warm.
(3) If you do not have either, pour out [ekcheo] water three times on the head “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
(4) Before the baptism [baptizomenos] the one baptizing [baptizon] and the one being baptized [baptizomenos] are to fast, and any others who are able. Command the one being baptized [baptizomenon] to fast beforehand a day or two.
 
We used to have a member here that always insisted that the water in John 3 was THE WORD.

In the underlined and highlighted above (mine) are you saying he was right !

I'm not sure if he meant God's LAWS
or God's WORD....

This goes hand in hand with the central theme for John's Gospel...
Also Jesus' beatitude "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God"

Because if you will allow me to rephrase what Jesus said,
"No one can really see who I really
To me God's laws are rules we have to follow.
God's word is the entire bible.

I do see a difference...

am unless they are born from above. You, Nicodemus can see me because of your following the spirit and letter of the Law and the Holy Spirit enabling you to"
 
To me God's laws are rules we have to follow.
God's word is the entire bible.

I do see a difference...

So some of God's words may not pertain to you...but they were not idle.
Timothy 3:16
All scripture is God breathed suitable for....
 
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