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Calvinism and the Nicene Creed
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
You can say so A, but you also have to show how it's true.
I'm stating two facts that are known history....
1. The only church that existed in 325 AD was the Catholic church.
2. That church was united until 1054 AD when the Orthodox broke away from it.
What I'm saying is that if you know otherwise, you should show yourself to be correct.
I mean, you can't go around changing history.
I have to leave till tomorrow,,,BUT
Peter ended up in Rome and it does appear from history that whenever a definitive statement had to be made, Rome was always looked to.
The 5 major Bishops were called Papa, as a term of endearment,
Finally, in about the year 600, it was decided that ONLY the BISHOP OF ROME could be called Papa...and so the title of POPE was given to the Bishop of Rome.
2 AM here, I really have to leave.
This can easily be confirmed using Google,,,although that may or may not be the best way of learning these facts.
Boaz
Member
Not all churches teach what Christian is within the boundaries set by the New Testament. All kinds of heresy and fabrication is taught. No not everyone in a church setting knows the Bible.
One of the things that was wrong with the RCC during the time of the Reformation that was being corrected was the RCC claimed to be highest authority over above the Bible. The Pope superseded God's word. That is how it got so ridiculously out of control. As far as I know they still think the Pope is the final word in all things their church. The visible church, any visible church is subject to the foundation laid by the NT apostles. The words of the Nicene creed echo what the Bible teaches.
We should be able to go to church and learn about God but usually what we get is how we can get Him to fix our felt needs.
Did I answer all your questions.
Anto9us2
Member
Hi Reformed05
wondering is gone for a while
Different Christians are GUIDED by different approaches.
Some Protestants are GUIDED by SOLA SCRIPTURA.
Catholics and Orthodox are GUIDED by a Magesterium of their church. Methodists are GUIDED by Wesleyan Quadrilateral, which has Scripture as primary, but Reason, Tradition, and Experience help interpret Scripture.
Of course it goes without saying that The Holy Spirit guides everyone.
But not everyone agrees, even on t h e scope of Scripture.
wondering is gone for a while
Different Christians are GUIDED by different approaches.
Some Protestants are GUIDED by SOLA SCRIPTURA.
Catholics and Orthodox are GUIDED by a Magesterium of their church. Methodists are GUIDED by Wesleyan Quadrilateral, which has Scripture as primary, but Reason, Tradition, and Experience help interpret Scripture.
Of course it goes without saying that The Holy Spirit guides everyone.
But not everyone agrees, even on t h e scope of Scripture.
Do you mean the Pope?
By 1054 the Roman Bishop was referred to as the Pope.
The church based in Rome was the Catholic Church.
On July 16, 1054, Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius was excommunicated from the Christian church based in Rome, Italy. This excommunication severed the largest faction of Christianity, called Chalcedonian Christianity. The split is known as the Great Schism.
The Great Schism divided Chalcedonian Christianity into what are now known as the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths.
source: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/...hristianity, called Chalcedonian Christianity.
Perfectly agreed on what Catholic meant back then.
You don't think it's the Orthodox that broke away and caused the schism?
Hi Reformed05,
You stated that we can know what a Christian is from the bible.
My point, and I think you agree, is that this ìs not really taught in some churches and some don't even read their bible.
All my friends that show up to Mass on Sunday believe that they are Christian....we both know this cannot be true.
To this day the Catholic church lists the order of importance as:
Church
Bible
Tradition
This is because that church believes only they could interpret the bible...actually I'm beginning to agree. In Protestantism we have every person believing they're right about everything----we can't all be right about everything and there's no authority to declare who is correct. (this is changing in the catholic church).
I agree with your post.
I like to ask questions because we can cut to the chase.
Welcome to the forum!
Boaz
Member
Liked your post. It is amazing to realize there was a time when the Bible was intentionally kept out of the hands of the people. The Dark Ages? No wonder! If I'm not mistaken, by all means correct me if I'm wrong, that was by the Catholic church. The reasoning was that "ordinary" people weren't smart enough to be able to interpret it and it could be harmful to them. Which of course is the same as saying the Holy Spirit either doesn't do what the Bible says He does (give us understanding of the Scriptures and always, always point us to Jesus) or they didn't trust Him to do a proper job, that the hierarchy of the Church could do better.Hi Reformed05,
You stated that we can know what a Christian is from the bible.
My point, and I think you agree, is that this ìs not really taught in some churches and some don't even read their bible.
All my friends that show up to Mass on Sunday believe that they are Christian....we both know this cannot be true.
To this day the Catholic church lists the order of importance as:
Church
Bible
Tradition
This is because that church believes only they could interpret the bible...actually I'm beginning to agree. In Protestantism we have every person believing they're right about everything----we can't all be right about everything and there's no authority to declare who is correct. (this is changing in the catholic church).
I agree with your post.
I like to ask questions because we can cut to the chase.
Welcome to the forum!
However we all know the tag line about power corrupting completely, it was about political and moral control over the unwashed masses.
Terrible, terrible atrocities took place by the church when, truly led by God, brave fervent individuals began to copy and translate into other languages the Bible and distribute it. They did this by HAND!
No typewriters or computers or even printing presses! Ssshhh. We are so dumbed down.!
Fortunately things are better now and RCC keeps their perceived authority over all things Christian to themselves and no longer resort to force by violence. Political and moral control of the unwashed masses has moved out of the Church into other arenas. Lol.
And though there are almost as many interpretations of scripture as there are people or churches, and that is unfortunate, it is still better. I feel certain that there are so many divisions and denominations is in large part, because the church has pretty much abandoned the things it needs most for stability. Unity of DOCTRINE, established from actual study of the Word by qualified persons, with oversight and synods and the other things that historically established what was heresy and what was scriptural. We have pretty much done away with confessions of faith (that is precise and detailed statement of beliefs I.e. the Westminster Confession, and catechism, things that were once even taught to the children. I will say this much for the RCC. They have kept those things in tact. The rest of us believe mostly according to how we feel and the BOUNDARIES of Christianity set in the NT, well it appears we don't recognize they even exist.
I think we could end it here....
But I believe you think the orthodox church existed BEFORE 1054.
Although problems existed between the Catholic church and those that believed what the Orthodox Church took as their own doctrine after the schism,,,formally the Orthodox church did not exist UNTIL the schism.
Perfectly stated.
I live in Italy now and a priest I know (he's 75 now) told me that when he was in seminary, he had to ask permission to read the O.T. ! And, yes, back in the time you're speaking of no one was allowed to read the bible, and even if they could , how would they get their hands on one? - for all the reasons you stated. A person had to be rich to be able to afford paper and ink and someone to copy a whole bible. Yes, we are a bit spoiled today. Poor Tyndale got burned at the stake for his efforts.
I guess God does everything when it's the right time. Maybe things had to get so bad before they got better.
I'm not sure who is better off these days....
The Catholic church with unified beliefs (although not as unified as we'd think but that's another suject)....or the Protestant church where we all seem to have our own beliefs about everything.
It is absolutely necessary for the Holy Spirit to speak to us individually through the N.T. so we could understand God and our relationship with Him the best we can....but it is also damaging in some ways.
Take works, for instance. Are they necessary?
Is belief in Jesus enough? Is conversion necessary or does HE do everything? Will this make a difference in our lives? Will it matter at judgement day?
But what if the reformation had never happened? Would we still be groping around trying to work our way to heaven?
Interesting concepts to think about.
Boaz
Member
I am positive God does everything at the right time. He certainly, being God couldn't do it at the wrong time. Laugh, laugh, laugh!
Many times it doesn't look like the right time to us but He sees/knows so much more than we do. Everything in fact. I see that time period we are speaking of as hell trying to prevail against the church, and just when Satan thought he had the job done, God says "No you didn't. Watch what I do now."
And just look at the men He appointed and gifted to turn the whole thing around! The Reformation was necessary as were the men even before that who began to put Bibles into the hands of the people. Most of those people, as you noted, died horrible deaths, they knew that was what they were facing, and they did it anyway.
I read a historical novel a long time ago and I can't remember the name of it, WISH I could, about that era. Anyone even caught with one of these Bibles were beheaded and their heads hung on the pointed spikes of bridges as a warning.
Sorry. That wasn't very pleasant.
And yes a lot of heresy and misinterpretation has come about since because people are so human! It seems to me that it became rampant post Edwards and is escalating rapidly but I am confidant that true Christianity will endure even if th their are only pockets of it here and there, a remnant. I have noticed in the Bible that God likes to work on remnants. And also I think He makes allowances for for our constantly decreasing diligence, dare I say intellect, the way in which we are bombarded and invaded by the secular world around us, and accepts the basic core of Christianity placed in a believers heart. Christ crucified!!
I agree....satan seems to believe he has the church in his grasp every now and then...but there's always that little remnant that is able to stir things up again.
Right now this is happening in the catholic church...this Pope is a little whacky, to say the least. But the true Church, the Body of Christ, will always prevail.
And I also have always believed that the church itself is holy...but the men in it are not. And the ones that are not holy, have ruined many souls because some persons look to their pastors/priests instead of looking to God.
Yes, we preach Christ, and Christ crucified.
Amen.
Butch5
Member
Can you give some evidence that the Creed is that of the Roman Catholic Church?
What church do YOU believe wrote the Nicene Creed in the year 325 AD?
What other church was around back then?
Anto9us2
Member