Calvinism---Why bother to evangelize

[Drew]

I give up. It is enough to know you think the Gospel should be preached.

We certainly agree on this - and perhaps that is what is really important

There is no need to debate. Of course it is here. Please note I said, "that will one day be ruling in all earth and in the hearts of all men". As God is still preparing the enemies of Jesus to be his footstool this has not yet come to pass.

Well, I still disagree somewhat. I believe that Jesus rules over the earth right now. That means he rules over all things, even those people who reject his rule. This may be a bit of a technicality, but maybe not. Is Barack Obama the President right now. Yes. Even over those who, for whatever reason, choose to believe otherwise.

And while I agree that the Kingdom has not yet defeated all its enemies, and that this will not happen without the direct intervention of God (read: second coming), I still think that Jesus rules over all things right now.

All things considered though, we are probably effectively saying the same thing.

 

[Drew]

Hey Drew! Good to see you again. It's been a long time! : )

Oh my goodness!!! I thought you might be dead!! (just kidding)

.....Doesn't make much sense or logic to me.

I think we agree on this particular issue.

 

[childeye]

We certainly agree on this - and perhaps that is what is really important


Well, I still disagree somewhat. I believe that Jesus rules over the earth right now. That means he rules over all things, even those people who reject his rule. This may be a bit of a technicality, but maybe not. Is Barack Obama the President right now. Yes. Even over those who, for whatever reason, choose to believe otherwise.

And while I agree that the Kingdom has not yet defeated all its enemies, and that this will not happen without the direct intervention of God (read: second coming), I still think that Jesus rules over all things right now.

All things considered though, we are probably effectively saying the same thing.

Pardon the supposed contradiction found in the semantics of words, but I would be willing to say that God has controlled all things from the beginning and rules over all things while also saying He does not rule in the hearts of all men as in being present in acknowledgment of the Truth. Is not this the problem between Calvinism and Arminianism, semantics?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Hey Drew! Good to see you again. It's been a long time! : )



Yes, but for what purpose? So that free will can be exercised and through faith, decisions made. The Calvinist tries to use phrases and concepts that only make sense from an Arminianist perspective.

Calvinism tries to make God sovereign and yet dependent on others preaching the word to what...awaken? ...the soul that is already saved? The Calvinist says, 'This is the avenue that God has chosen to draw the elect to Himself.' That all sounds fine and dandy but it makes no sense and it basically removes the very sovereignty they argue for God: that God is dependent on the Word being preached.

So what happens if the Word is not preached? By definition, they cannot be saved for they do not have the power of choice and only with the preaching of the Word, can they 'hear' and thus come to a pre-existing knowledge of their pre-determined salvation.

Doesn't make much sense or logic to me.

I agree with you. If God "ordained" that certain people were to be "chosen" for Salvation, then, by nature of God's will, that person would be saved and wouldn't need "the work" of a mere man to help out by preaching the Salvation message. But, the Calvinist would come back and say, "yeah but, it was God who "predestined" the scenario by which the "elect" person heard the Word. What ever side your on in this controversy, you have plenty of ammunition to prove your point. I'ts just a matter of "choosing" what you think sounds more logical/feasible. The fact that we "quibble" over this topic, at least show's that we all have an interest in the things of God, and that's more then what the unsaved world has. In the end analysis, as long as were trusting in the "Grace of God" none of us can be wrong, can we? Will find out someday, when we see Jesus, I'm sure He'll let us know which side was correct...

 

[handy]

I agree with you. If God "ordained" that certain people were to be "chosen" for Salvation, then, by nature of God's will, that person would be saved and wouldn't need "the work" of a mere man to help out by preaching the Salvation message. But, the Calvinist would come back and say, "yeah but, it was God who "predestined" the scenario by which the "elect" person heard the Word. What ever side your on in this controversy, you have plenty of ammunition to prove your point. I'ts just a matter of "choosing" what you think sounds more logical/feasible. The fact that we "quibble" over this topic, at least show's that we all have an interest in the things of God, and that's more then what the unsaved world has. In the end analysis, as long as were trusting in the "Grace of God" none of us can be wrong, can we? Will find out someday, when we see Jesus, I'm sure He'll let us know which side was correct...

Those last thoughts are almost verbatum to what my Calvinists friends told me when I left the church. It didn't cause any serious falling out of friendships.

I saw this:

The following argument “A†is often advanced to justify preaching the gospel in a world where some have been pre-destined by God unto ultimate salvation (in the strong “determinative†sense, not in the “pre-destined in virtue of foreknowledge†sense):

1. Some people are pre-destined to salvation;

2. We do not know who has been pre-destined to salvation;

3. We know that even those who have been pre-destined must hear the gospel in order for that salvation to be actualized;

4. Therefore we need to preach the gospel to all people.

Here is why A fails. Let's speculate about a person "Fred" who has been pre-destined by God unto salvation. By the very meaning of the concept of pre-destination, there is nothing that human beings can do (or fail to do) that will cause Fred to not end up in Heaven.

But note term 3 of A - even the pre-destined must hear the gospel in order to be ultimately saved. There are two possibilities in respect to term 3:

a. God has not pre-destined that someone will tell Fred the gospel;
b. God has pre-destined that someone will tell Fred the gospel.

Consider (a). If God has not pre-destined someone to tell Fred the gospel, then the possibility exists that no one will tell Fred the gospel. But this cannot be, since we know Fred is pre-destined to salvation and that he must, in virtue of item 3, hear the gospel to have that destiny actualized.

Now consider (b). If God has pre-destined someone to tell Fred the gospel, then there is no necessity to instruct us to tell the gospel - the gospel will most certainly be told to Fred. No one needs to be instructed to perform an action that has been pre-destined to occur. Does God "tell" somebody to tell the apple to fall to ground at 32 feet per second per second? Probably not, precisely because the apple is "pre-destined" to fall at that rate through the action of the laws of physics.

This argument that we still need to tell pre-destined people the gospel therefore fails.

The answer that those of my former church would give is that God has His means of doing things.

For instance, if God had intended the world to be created, why did it take Him six days to complete the process?

It took six days because God used a process. He also uses a process by which to impart salvation to the elect. Part of the process is hearing the gospel and another part of that process is to send out believers to share the gospel.

Another example would be the fact that Jesus knew that someone had to deliver him over for crucifixion. And, even though Jesus admitted that it was going to happen, He still attributes personal responsibility to those through whom it would happen.

To use the logic you applied here, we could say, why then did anyone have to turn Jesus over for crucifixion. If He came to be crucified (which He did) then He would have certainly been crucified even if no one betrayed Him...and yet He said that someone would. What was the point of there being someone to betray Him. Wouldn't it have been better off for all if Jesus had not been betrayed, but have His death come about by a different means?

"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

The thing is, God uses people at every step of the way. Why not use people to impart the Gospel, of which by hearing we are saved?

There's a lot that I disagree with as far as Calvinism is concerned, but the idea that predestination means there is no need for evangelism isn't taught by Calvinists. Usually, it's pointed out by anti-Calvinists, and then usually, in an attempt to set up a straw man argument.

There is enough in the actual teachings of Calvinism to prove that it isn't scriptural without having to set up arguments that Calvinists don't hold to in the first place.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Evagelize for the Elect's sake !

In your opinion, can a person who has trusted in Christ, been indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit, trusts in God's Grace, but does not buy into the Calvinist THEORY, still be saved by God's Grace??? Or is Salvation only for those who trust in Calvin's theory? I ask this in friendship not anger...

This inquiry has nothing to do with why Evangelism was necessary. The Main reason for Evangelism was for the in-gathering of God's Elect, so they would hear Christ voice. Jn 10:16


16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

These are the ones my Lord was speaking of in Jn 17:20

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Thats when and how they shall hear His voice, when He would send the Apostles out with the Gospel of their Salvation ! The elect and the Sheep are the same !

When Peter was told to go Preach, the Lord called it feeding His Sheep or Elect. Jn 21:16-17

He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Jesus was speaking of those Sheep He had mentioned in Jn 10:16. That was the main reason for evangelism !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Evagelize for the Elect's sake !

This inquiry has nothing to do with why Evangelism was necessary. The Main reason for Evangelism was for the in-gathering of God's Elect, so they would hear Christ voice. Jn 10:16


16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

These are the ones my Lord was speaking of in Jn 17:20

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Thats when and how they shall hear His voice, when He would send the Apostles out with the Gospel of their Salvation ! The elect and the Sheep are the same !

When Peter was told to go Preach, the Lord called it feeding His Sheep or Elect. Jn 21:16-17

He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Jesus was speaking of those Sheep He had mentioned in Jn 10:16. That was the main reason for evangelism !

That really didn't answer my question. So I would ask you in a friendly way, could you answer my question? Or if you don't wish to I will understand. Have a wonderful day my friend...

 

[savedbygrace57]

grub

That really didn't answer my question.

Then you will not be getting an answer from me ! And you have a nice day also..

 

[smaller]

For the record I agree with the general body of work that Calvin/Reformed teaching presents in TULIP, but I also have to put my tongue in cheek from time to time on certain aspects of same.

It was from the writings of Lewis Sperry Chafer that convinced me once and for all of the security of the believer and the complete and total sufficiency of Gods Grace. That 'sharing' took me permanently out of the charismatic and freewill church groups and I have never looked back.

Yet even Calvinism or within the Reformed movements there remains that pesky little P. The perseverance thingy. One must 'persevere' to the end, and even then there is no assurance of salvation. So even while holding OSAS most determinists really can't determine in the absolute sense a definite yes or no for themselves or anyone else for that matter, on salvation. That is the part of determinism that I find tongue in cheek with. Yet with 'studious' determinists they will tell you this is so.

If anyone has a serious interest in the scholarly approach to the subject matter I would highly recommend one Karl Barth. The man was an absolute determinist genius, so much so that many Roman Catholic Church learned scholars heaped favorable views upon his grasp of the complexities of the subject matters, and hardliners within his own camp rejected him outright. Now that's genius.

There is a fact that should come with all theology that even Apostles bowed to, to whit:

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part

Any claimant to the seat of study must take that factual pill in the arena of theology, and if they cannot, they are off base before they start. Because of that fact there is NO PERFECT THEOLOGY. Not Calvin, not Arminian. Everyone has a part. Only Jesus has the whole enchilada.

When the perfect comes, the imperfect disappears. *1 Cor. 13:10

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

Great post smaller. How true about theology. After all Love is simple.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

grub



Then you will not be getting an answer from me ! And you have a nice day also..

That's not unusual...

 

[reformed baptist]

For those who prescribe to "Calvinism," does it make any sense to try and evangelize, if "The Elect" were chosen before the foundation of the world, and the rest were chosen for eternal damnation?

The Calvinist evangelises because God has told us to, and also because God has chosen to use us as the emans of bringing people to salvation. When you think about it Calvinist are the only ones who can evangelise without being crushed. If I, for a second, felt that the burden was on my shoulders to and that someone might not chose to believe because I did not explain the gsople clearly enough to persuade them to believe then I would be crushed with each failure. But No! I know that even if my words are weak and failing, as they usually are, God can take that, and in his grace use them, in drawing a soul to salvation!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The Calvinist evangelises because God has told us to, and also because God has chosen to use us as the emans of bringing people to salvation. When you think about it Calvinist are the only ones who can evangelise without being crushed. If I, for a second, felt that the burden was on my shoulders to and that someone might not chose to believe because I did not explain the gsople clearly enough to persuade them to believe then I would be crushed with each failure. But No! I know that even if my words are weak and failing, as they usually are, God can take that, and in his grace use them, in drawing a soul to salvation!

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "Word of God." This is what the Bible says. The real reason to witness to others, is that they may hear the truth of God's word,(regarding His Grace by sending His Son to die for our sins) (everyone's sins) so that we might receive God's forgiveness and mercy. The Bible says that, how will they hear unless someone be sent. God's offer of Grace is available to ALL who will place their faith in Christ and Him alone. That is what the scriptures teach. That is "The Good news."

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Calvinist evangelises because God has told us to, and also because God has chosen to use us as the emans of bringing people to salvation. When you think about it Calvinist are the only ones who can evangelise without being crushed. If I, for a second, felt that the burden was on my shoulders to and that someone might not chose to believe because I did not explain the gsople clearly enough to persuade them to believe then I would be crushed with each failure. But No! I know that even if my words are weak and failing, as they usually are, God can take that, and in his grace use them, in drawing a soul to salvation!

Evangelism was for the Body of Christ Eph 4:11-13

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we [The Body] all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The Apostles Ministry was geared towards the gathering in of all the regenerated elect, the Body of Christ. The Evangelist, like Philip were sent to deliver the message of Christ to men and women God had prepared them spiritually to receive their message of salvation. Notice Philip the evangelist Acts 8:26-40. That Philip was an Evangelist is seen here Acts 21:8

And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

The Ethiopian Eunuch was part of the Body of Christ that Christ died for. One of the Sheep that Jesus said would hear His voice Jn 10:16


16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


They hear Christ's voice through the preacher that God sent to them. Everyone Christ died for and redeemed by His blood, Christ sends them the Gospel, the good news of their salvation. That was the primary Purpose for the Gospel being sent, the disciples being commissioned Matt 28:19-20, They were sent out to disciple and instruct regenerated elect sheep wherever Christ sent them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

grub

God's offer of Grace is available to ALL who will place their faith in Christ and Him alone.

Thats false teaching because the bible nowhere teaches that God offers Grace to anyone.

God gives His Grace to His Elect, in Fact He gave it to them In Christ there Head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Now prove your statement with scripture that God offered anyone Grace !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

grub



Thats false teaching because the bible nowhere teaches that God offers Grace to anyone.

God gives His Grace to His Elect, in Fact He gave it to them In Christ there Head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Your wrong, no offence. God's Grace is available to ALL who will receive it as the "free gift" that it is. And I'm willing to bet my Eternity on it...

Now prove your statement with scripture that God offered anyone Grace !

Your wrong, no offence. God's Grace is available to ALL who will receive it as the "free gift" that it is. And I'm willing to bet my Eternity on it...

 

[savedbygrace57]

grubal

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "Word of God."

How can a spiritually dead man hear ? Jesus says one's ears must be blessed to hear. Matt 13:16

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Jesus also said and insinuated that a person cannot hear His word unless they are of God ! Jn 8:47

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So One must be of God to Hear God's words and then Faith cometh by Hearing, and Hearing by the word of God.

 

[Gazelle]

Isn't God's Word pretty clear about the work of the Holy Spirit wooing mankind to believe on Christ?

International Standard Version (©2008) John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day

King James Version.. 1 Corinthians 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" [SIZE=-1](Matthew 12:31-32).[/SIZE]

When one rejects Christ, it is the Holy Spirit's wooing that is being rejected. It is that sin that is unpardonable, being that of failing to accept Christ's redeeming work on the cross and resurrection.

If only believer's can hear God, no one could be saved. The Holy Spirit IS God, remember, and is the very Person who draws us to the Love that provides the grace and mercy to forgive us. Can a person who has not obtained eternal life understand God's Word? Not really. For the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him , neither can he know them for they are Spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14 For this very reason we are not to debate nor argue etc with someone who is not a believer, but preach Christ crucified, risen and coming again. That is the only message they can truly hear until they find Christ.

Another thought on this is that I would encourage those wondering about this to study how people do not have to be a believer (read saved, born again, follower of Christ etc) to be a recipient of God's miracles. All around us and specifically, God gives miracles to unbelievers to bring them to Himself. Through the miracle, and the Holy Spirit, the unbeliever comes to Christ.

SO if God can do all this, what does He need us for? It is His preferred method ...for those to hear of His greatness through believers. If He didn't need us, as lights (not hid under bushels) as soon as someone accepted eternal life, they would be taken out of the world immediately, since there would be no "reason" for them to have to suffer further. We are His workmanship, created to do the work of Christ here on earth. (Ephesians 2:10)

However the main purpose of any Christian is to worship God and to bring others to finding Him as well. Not all are called as evangelists, but all are called to evangelize. ;) A pastor, in the technical sense, is not an evangelist. Billy Graham spoke to the definition of the difference, and I agree with him in that an evangelist must stick to the Gospel of Christ, the Cross, Christ's death, burial and resurrection to win others. A pastor and each believer has their own path that includes winning others, but not necessarily as their only and main goal in life.

I trust all Scriptures are within context.

 

[Saltwater]

"How can a spiritually dead man hear ?"

A spiritually dead man can hear by the convicting presence of the Holy Spirit when the Gosplel is preached per 1Thess1:5 -

5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake. NKJV context = v2-7

which renders "So One must be of God to Hear God's words and then Faith cometh by Hearing, and Hearing by the word of God." as an invalid premise.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

"How can a spiritually dead man hear ?"

A spiritually dead man can hear by the convicting presence of the Holy Spirit when the Gosplel is preached per 1Thess1:5 -

5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake. NKJV context = v2-7

which renders "So One must be of God to Hear God's words and then Faith cometh by Hearing, and Hearing by the word of God." as an invalid premise.

Your correct when you say, "A spiritually dead man can hear by the convicting presence of the Holy Spirit when the Gospel is preached." Your 100% right in that saying. The Holy Spirit, convicts and works on the hearts of men to bring them to the "Grace of God." And He uses the "Word of God" to that end. When man hears the truth of God's Grace and puts ALL his faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, then the Holy Spirit indwells/seals that man, and he is "Born again Spiritually."