causing a little one to stumble Matthew 18:6-9

[I_love_Springtime]

Matthew 18:6-9
6 “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea. 7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come. 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into fiery hell. (NET)

Question: Certain people can have enough influence on trusting people to make those trusting people fall into sin, and "woe to the person through whom they [the stumbling blocks] come." But in verse 8, who is Jesus speaking to? The person who thinks he may have a problem being a stumbling block to someone? Or to the trusting person who has unfortunately fallen into sin because of that person?

 

[JLB]

Matthew 18:6-9
6 “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea. 7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come. 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into fiery hell. (NET)

Question: Certain people can have enough influence on trusting people to make those trusting people fall into sin, and "woe to the person through whom they [the stumbling blocks] come." But in verse 8, who is Jesus speaking to? The person who thinks he may have a problem being a stumbling block to someone? Or to the trusting person who has unfortunately fallen into sin because of that person?

I may not fully understand your question but it’s an important passage. When Jesus says things like this we should certainly pay attention.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

in verse 8, who is Jesus speaking to?

In verse 6 we see 'little ones who believe in Jesus' are the ones being caused to sin:

6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin..." - Matthew 18:6

Verse 8 and 9 is talking to the one's being caused to sin--little ones who believe in Jesus:

"8 “If your hand or foot causes you (little ones who believe in Jesus) to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you (little ones who believe in Jesus) to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you (little ones who believe in Jesus) to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you (little ones who believe in Jesus). It is better for you (little ones who believe in Jesus) to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire." - Matthew 18:8-9


(Not to derail the thread, but notice that Jesus didn't believe in OSAS )

 

[I_love_Springtime]

In verse 6 we see 'little ones who believe in Jesus' are the ones being caused to sin:

6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin..." - Matthew 18:6

Verse 8 and 9 is talking to the one's being caused to sin--little ones who believe in Jesus:

"8 “If your hand or foot causes you (little ones who believe in Jesus) to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you (little ones who believe in Jesus) to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you (little ones who believe in Jesus) to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you (little ones who believe in Jesus). It is better for you (little ones who believe in Jesus) to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire." - Matthew 18:8-9


(Not to derail the thread, but notice that Jesus didn't believe in OSAS )

Yeah that's how I've decided to interpret it too. Sometimes I worry that in my past I may have (who knows??) been a really dangerous influence on someone of faith. I hope not. I know I was kind of traumatized myself as a young believer by someone outside the faith. And I struggle with addiction to this day. But I am quick to forgive this person, because I don't want them to suffer the fate Jesus talked about (about the millstone being tied around their neck and drowned in the sea). I don't want that type of terror to fall on this person.

 

[Hopeful]

Matthew 18:6-9
6 “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea. 7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come. 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into fiery hell. (NET)

Question: Certain people can have enough influence on trusting people to make those trusting people fall into sin, and "woe to the person through whom they [the stumbling blocks] come." But in verse 8, who is Jesus speaking to? The person who thinks he may have a problem being a stumbling block to someone? Or to the trusting person who has unfortunately fallen into sin because of that person?

Verse 8 is a prophetic foretelling of the effects of water baptism on the believer.
It is where we cast off the sinful flesh and are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Col. 2:11-13 says it more succinctly..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
Instead of casting off sinful hands or eyes, we can now cast off the whole package and be raised with Christ as new creatures.
Thanks be to God.

 

[JLB]

Verse 8 is a prophetic foretelling of the effects of water baptism on the believer.
It is where we cast off the sinful flesh and are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Col. 2:11-13 says it more succinctly..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
Instead of casting off sinful hands or eyes, we can now cast off the whole package and be raised with Christ as new creatures.
Thanks be to God.

We as born again Christians who have the Spirit within us, must choose to walk according to the Spirit rather than walk according to the flesh.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

• who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

JLB

 

[Hopeful]

We as born again Christians who have the Spirit within us, must choose to walk according to the Spirit rather than walk according to the flesh.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

• who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

JLB

Amen to that!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yeah that's how I've decided to interpret it too. Sometimes I worry that in my past I may have (who knows??) been a really dangerous influence on someone of faith. I hope not. I know I was kind of traumatized myself as a young believer by someone outside the faith. And I struggle with addiction to this day. But I am quick to forgive this person, because I don't want them to suffer the fate Jesus talked about (about the millstone being tied around their neck and drowned in the sea). I don't want that type of terror to fall on this person.

I think most of us have been a bad influence on a new believer to one extent or another at sometime in our lives. Just like any other sin, as long as we recognize that, confess it, and put it under the blood we are safe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Verse 8 is a prophetic foretelling of the effects of water baptism on the believer.
It is where we cast off the sinful flesh and are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Col. 2:11-13 says it more succinctly..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
Instead of casting off sinful hands or eyes, we can now cast off the whole package and be raised with Christ as new creatures.
Thanks be to God.

I think Jesus is talking about other members of the body leading new weaker believers astray.
It's better to cut off the eyes, hands, and feet of the body of Christ that lead other parts of the body into sin than for the whole body to be corrupted.

 

[Hopeful]

I think Jesus is talking about other members of the body leading new weaker believers astray.
It's better to cut off the eyes, hands, and feet of the body of Christ that lead other parts of the body into sin than for the whole body to be corrupted.

I think that is kind of a stretch, as there was no "body" (church) yet.
But the sentiment could be used in your mentioned capacity.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think that is kind of a stretch, as there was no "body" (church) yet.
But the sentiment could be used in your mentioned capacity.

Go down a few verses...

"17 ...tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." - Matthew 18:17

 

[JLB]

I think that is kind of a stretch, as there was no "body" (church) yet.
But the sentiment could be used in your mentioned capacity.

So no one was saved by the preaching of Jesus Christ?

 

[Hopeful]

Go down a few verses...

"17 ...tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." - Matthew 18:17

This just gets into the semantics of "church" v. "body".
As the church was not yet the "body of Christ", it lends credence to my idea of Jesus' words being prophetic in nature.

 

[Hopeful]

So no one was saved by the preaching of Jesus Christ?

I don't know what to attach "that" to?

 

[JLB]

I don't know what to attach "that" to?

The claim the Church didn’t begin until Acts 2.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This just gets into the semantics of "church" v. "body".
As the church was not yet the "body of Christ", it lends credence to my idea of Jesus' words being prophetic in nature.

The people of God called out of Egypt/the world have always been referred to as a congregation of called out ones (which is what 'church' means).

But anyway, maybe this will help you understand Matthew 18:6-9 and Mark 9:42-47...

14 So the Lord will cut off from Israel both head and tail,
both palm branch and reed in a single day;
15 the elders and dignitaries are the head,
the prophets who teach lies are the tail.
16 Those who guide this people mislead them,
and those who are guided are led astray.

Isaiah 9:14-16

Those parts of the congregation of God's people who lead the congregation astray are to be cut off in order to protect and preserve the congregation itself from going to hell.

If you want to get a really good Bible education you MUST read the Old Testament. It will open up your understanding of seemingly not understandable New Testament passages.
You're probably already pretty familiar with the New Testament, so when you start reading the Old Testament you'll start making connections between it and what the authors of the New say and your insight and understanding will explode.
And you'll begin to realize how mislead the congregation (the church) has become by it's leadership. For it is they who turned the church away from all things 'Old Testament' in their misguided, uneducated and Spirit-less fear of 'works'. And that has resulted in a profound ignorance of the truths of the New.

 

[Hopeful]

The claim the Church didn’t begin until Acts 2.

OK, thanks.
The Christian "church" didn't start till Jesus was raised from the dead.
There were no Christians yet.
Nobody could be baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection yet.

 

[Hopeful]

The people of God called out of Egypt/the world have always been referred to as a congregation of called out ones (which is what 'church' means).

But anyway, maybe this will help you understand Matthew 18:6-9 and Mark 9:42-47...

14 So the Lord will cut off from Israel both head and tail,
both palm branch and reed in a single day;
15 the elders and dignitaries are the head,
the prophets who teach lies are the tail.
16 Those who guide this people mislead them,
and those who are guided are led astray.

Isaiah 9:14-16

Those parts of the congregation of God's people who lead the congregation astray are to be cut off in order to protect and preserve the congregation itself from going to hell.

If you want to get a really good Bible education you MUST read the Old Testament. It will open up your understanding of seemingly not understandable New Testament passages.
You're probably already pretty familiar with the New Testament, so when you start reading the Old Testament you'll start making connections between it and what the authors of the New say and your insight and understanding will explode.
And you'll begin to realize how mislead the congregation (the church) has become by it's leadership. For it is they who turned the church away from all things 'Old Testament' in their misguided, uneducated and Spirit-less fear of 'works'. And that has resulted in a profound ignorance of the truths of the New.

If that is truly your POV on Jesus' wards about "cutting off the hand, eye", are you saying Jesus is talking about rebelling against the Pharisees and Sadducees?
That the Jews were to "cut them off"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If that is truly your POV on Jesus' wards about "cutting off the hand, eye", are you saying Jesus is talking about rebelling against the Pharisees and Sadducees?
That the Jews were to "cut them off"?

He's talking about anybody that leads those who "believe in Me" (vs.6) to go astray into sin.
That means a Pharisee or Sadducee of Jesus' day, or anyone else associated with believers who cause them to stumble.
It is better for them to be cut off from the body of believers than for the believers to keep them around and be led to the fires of hell.
The Judaizers in the Galatian church would be a good example:

"7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is." - Galatians 5:7-10

Those who preached a dead savior at Corinth are another example:

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

32 ...If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE. 33Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God." - 1 Corinthians 15:12-14,32-34

Still another example are those who were leading the Pergamum church into idolatry and sexual immorality:

"14‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16‘Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth." - Revelation 2:14-16

In all these examples it is better that the eyes, and hands, and feet among them that are leading them into sin be cut off so that those "who believe in Me" will be preserved and enter into life and not go to the fires of hell.

 

[Hopeful]

He's talking about anybody that leads those who "believe in Me" (vs.6) to go astray into sin.
That means a Pharisee or Sadducee of Jesus' day, or anyone else associated with believers who cause them to stumble.
It is better for them to be cut off from the body of believers than for the believers to keep them around and be led to the fires of hell.
The Judaizers in the Galatian church would be a good example:

"7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is." - Galatians 5:7-10

Those who preached a dead savior at Corinth are another example:

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

32 ...If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE. 33Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God." - 1 Corinthians 15:12-14,32-34

Still another example are those who were leading the Pergamum church into idolatry and sexual immorality:

"14‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16‘Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth." - Revelation 2:14-16

In all these examples it is better that the eyes, and hands, and feet among them that are leading them into sin be cut off so that those "who believe in Me" will be preserved and enter into life and not go to the fires of hell.

I was originally answering the OP's question of "Who is verse 8 referring to?"
Verse 8 of Matt 18.
I think we have crossed "points" here.
I'm going to just step back a second or two.
Peace.