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Changed from pretribulation to post-tribulation view of the rapture
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Nathan12
Member
"The last trump" or "the trump of God" is a summons to the Church to come home to Heaven. It corresponds to "Come up hither". And that only happens when the saints who have passed on receive their resurrected, immortal, glorified bodies, while those who are alive at that time are totally transformed and perfected, also having glorified bodies. So this is a trumpet call for the completion of salvation (which is glorification, Rom 8:29,30).
This trumpet call has nothing in common with the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal (which is NOT called "the last trump"). This trumpet is for the final outpouring of God's wrath on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked, including the enemies of God and Christ. Therefore it includes the vials of God's wrath: And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (Rev 15:1)
There are too many interpreters who assume that this trumpet is the same as "the last trump". But they are totally dissimilar. The one is for salvation, but the other is for damnation.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
Brother, Jesus has come once already and died for our sins on the cross.
If His coming to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture at the end of the age is not the second coming, then which coming is it?
Coming - Strongs G3952 - parousia
- presence
- the coming, arrival, advent
- the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
JLB
Nathan12
Member
The "end of the age" occurs long AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. And the Second Coming occurs shortly after the Resurrection Rapture. Daniel's 70th week intervenes.
So we need to really see a sequence of events, not everything jumbled up. And that is exactly what we find in Revelation 19 - 21. So what do we see?
1. Praises to God for the destruction of Babylon
2. Rejoicing over the anticipated Marriage of the Lamb
3. The Marriage of the Lamb (with all the saints in Heaven)
4. The descent of Christ to earth to make war and establish His reign -- THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
5. Christ surrounded by His armies of saints and angels.
6. The battle of Armageddon and the destruction of the enemies of Christ
7. The Beast (the Antichrist) and the False Prophet cast into the Lake of Fire
8. The imprisonment of Satan in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years
9. The Millennial reign of Christ with His saints
10. Satan loosed for a season for the battle of Gog and Magog
11. The supernatural destruction of all Christ's enemies
12. Satan cast into the Lake of Fire
13. The Great White Throne Judgment
14. The supernatural burning up of the earth and its atmosphere (found in 2 Peter 3)
15. THE END OF THE AGE (including the end of Death and Hades)
16. The New Heavens and the New Earth.
You keep making up your own ideas about His coming and simple won’t answer my question.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
Brother, Jesus has come once already and died for our sins on the cross.
Question:
If His coming to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture at the end of the age is not the second coming, then which coming is it?
Coming - Strongs G3952 - parousia
- presence
- the coming, arrival, advent
- the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
JLB
Actually the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming not after His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
- we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
We see the same thing mentioned throughout the New Testament.
- all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
- Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
The resurrection happens at His coming
The resurrection apture happens at His coming
The end of all rule and authority happens at His coming
JLB
Nathan12
Member
Sorry for the misunderstanding. That is simply because the word parousia (=coming) has been used for BOTH the Resurrection/Rapture (ahead of the Second Coming) as well as the Second Coming.
Strong's Concordance
parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: a presence, a coming
Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ.
PLEASE NOTE: "ESPECIALLY" NOT "EXCLUSIVELY"
How does this correspond with "Come up hither"?
Romans 8:29,30 has nothing to do with the last trump, but that of being called of God for His purpose as we were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ who is our intercessor before the Father.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Nathan12
Member
It has everything to do with the last trump, since this passage is about the perfection and glorification of the saints. Which is the true image or replica of Christ -- we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is (absolutely perfect). And when will that happen? At the last trump, when the Resurrection/Rapture takes place.
I disagree with what you say the last trump is. If it's the last, what was the first?
Nathan12
Member
In ancient biblical times trumpets were used (among other uses) for a summons. In effect the last trump (the trump of God) is a summons to the Church -- leave earth and come to Heaven -- "Come up hither". And that is what we see in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. When the full complement of Gentiles has come into the Church, God summons the Church -- the Bride of Christ -- to the Marriage of the Lamb.
Nathan12
Member
NUMBERS 10
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. 3 And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
The Greek word ekklesia which is translated as "church" also means "assembly". And while the above assembly was to gather at the earthly tabernacle, the Church will gather at the Heavenly Sanctuary after the Resurrection/Rapture, where Christ is the Great High Priest.
I read it as we being predestined from God as He calls us for His purpose (ministry) and that we are to be predestined in the image of Christ who is our intercessor before the Father.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Where do you get the words "Come up hither"?
This is not a theory or misinterpretation, but exactly what is already written in the scriptures.
Starting at Rev 12:6 all seven trumpets have sounded as after the seventh trumpet is sounded we flee into the wilderness where God has a place prepared for us, meaning wherever we flee to God will meet our needs during the 3 1/2 years of the reign of the beast. Then comes the war in the third heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels as Satan is finally cast out of heaven with his angels as he is cast out into the earth. Satan then gives power to the beast out of the sea, which then this beast gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition who takes a literal seat on the very temple mount of God in Jerusalem.
At the end of the 3 1/2 years after those that have taken the mark of this beast comes God's seven vial judgments against those who took the mark, but yet they are not killed yet until Christ returns ay His second coming. Mystery Babylon is then described and destroyed as God brings judgment against her. The kings (political leaders) who fornicated with her, meaning found favor as following after this Luciferian political, economic and false religious system they were made rich by this system now bewail and lament over her destruction. Even the merchants weep and mourn over her as they no longer have anyone to buy their merchandise.
The Bride, those alive at His second coming and those asleep in their graves have only prepared themselves for Christ to return as now all things are made ready for the return of Christ. He descends down from the third heaven to the first heaven (air) with His army of angels as he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
At that time while Christ is in the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming as He only has to speak the words that destroys them casting them into the lake of fire. He then slays the remnant that followed after the beast.
At His second coming Christ will send His army of angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather the saints of God as He calls all, both sinner and saints out of their graves and separates the sheep from the goats setting His sheep on His right side as we are then encamped with Him and the goats on His left side who stand with those who are alive that have rejected Christ. One resurrection, two different judgements. Satan is also bound at this time until all the saints are gathered and then set loose to try and destroy the saints by sending his angels out to destroy them, but they are consumed by fire sent down from heaven and Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
Now comes the great white throne judgment and two sets of books are opened with one being the Lamb's book of life. All those names that are not found in the lamb's book of life are then judged and cast into the lake of fire. God then makes new again the heaven and the earth and ushers down the New Jerusalem as we are there with the Lord for evermore.
Everything after Rev Chapter 12 is done after the seventh trumpet has sounded. Christ second coming in Rev 19 is on the last day as every prophecy will then be fulfilled.
Again, please answer the question.
Which coming of the Lord would this be that occurs at the resurrection and rapture?
First coming or second coming?
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
And again here -
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
This coming where Jesus puts an end to all rule and authority, at the time He resurrects the dead in Christ?
Is it the first coming or second coming?
JLB
Nathan12
Member
THE BLESSED HOPE
The coming of Christ at the Rapture is thus: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...to meet the Lord in the air (1 Cor 15:52; I Thess 4:17) This is almost instantaneous, and in the air, therefore cannot be regarded as Christ coming to earth. He comes for His saints and returns to Heaven immediately.
UNIVERSAL MOURNING
There is only ONE Second Coming of Christ (Rev 1:7; Jude 1:14,15; Mt 24:27,30).
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Yes. The coming of the Lord is the blessed hope, where the dead in Christ are resurrected and those who are alive and remain are caught up with them in the air, then He destroys the wicked.
It’s undeniable and irrefutable that Jesus puts an end to all rule and authority at His coming, when He resurrects the dead and raptures the Church.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
Again
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
JLB
Christ never returns to the earth, but only returns with clouds as He comes in the air descending down from the third heaven in the same manner He ascended up to heaven. Christ returns with His army, being the host of heaven as from the air He smites the nations, destroys mystery Babylon that reigns in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years, destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming, casting them into the lake of fire and will slain the remnant that followed after the beast.
Upon His return (second coming) Christ sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather those who are alive at His second coming and calls those who are in their graves to come forth. He separates the sheep from the goats and those sheep who have risen from their grave are joined with those who are alive as they are all caught up to the clouds and are given their new glorified bodies in order to meet Christ in the air.
Zechariah 14:4; Isaiah 64:1; Daniel Chapter 7, 9; Matthew 24:29-31; Acts 1:11; Rev 1:7, Rev 19:11-21; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, John 5:28, 29; 6:40
Christ second coming comes after all have taken the mark of the beast and the seven vial judgments are poured out on them, but they do not die yet, Revelation 16:1-21, until on the last day when Christ returns and fulfills all prophecy making an end to all the abominations that have caused desolation in the earth. The earth and heaven are renewed and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven, Rev 21.