Chopper's thread 0n Rapture

[Deborah13]

Thank you. Can anyone answer my question?

Hi Chopper, praise the Lord for another wonderful day to lift each other up, to edify the body of Christ and glorify the Lord.
You know, until a few months ago I was a full blown dispensationalist, almost all Revelation was in the future and the "rapture" of the Church before "the great tribulation" was a given. I learned those teaching over 30 yrs ago as a baby Christian and when I did read the scriptures it was with that mind set, I did not question those things. I am seeing things very differently now but even so I don't have it ALL settled in my mind and heart.

I don't know you may have already read the old threads on the subject of Daniel's 70 weeks. JLB is correct in saying that it is the understanding of what Jesus said in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Daniel 9 and reconciling these scriptures. So here are two very long threads on that subject that I am going to go back through and take notes to share with others (my kids mostly).
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/abomination-of-desolation-in-70ad.48199/
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...omination-of-desolation-in-70ad-part-2.48840/
But because this is a thread in which I can challenge our beloved Brother JLB on his statement as to who the "he" is referring to in Daniel 9:27, I will do so again. This is all about the grammar, unless we just say grammar doesn't matter in the Greek or the English.

Blessings Deb

 

[JLB]

Hi Chopper, praise the Lord for another wonderful day to lift each other up, to edify the body of Christ and glorify the Lord.
You know, until a few months ago I was a full blown dispensationalist, almost all Revelation was in the future and the "rapture" of the Church before "the great tribulation" was a given. I learned those teaching over 30 yrs ago as a baby Christian and when I did read the scriptures it was with that mind set, I did not question those things. I am seeing things very differently now but even so I don't have it ALL settled in my mind and heart.

I don't know you may have already read the old threads on the subject of Daniel's 70 weeks. JLB is correct in saying that it is the understanding of what Jesus said in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Daniel 9 and reconciling these scriptures. So here are two very long threads on that subject that I am going to go back through and take notes to share with others (my kids mostly).
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/abomination-of-desolation-in-70ad.48199/
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...omination-of-desolation-in-70ad-part-2.48840/
But because this is a thread in which I can challenge our beloved Brother JLB on his statement as to who the "he" is referring to in Daniel 9:27, I will do so again. This is all about the grammar, unless we just say grammar doesn't matter in the Greek or the English.

Blessings Deb

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:26-27

Hi Deborah,

I was waiting for you to explain your position in this matter of the "he" in verse 27.

The last person mentioned is the "prince who is to come", in verse 26.

According to the Chronological structure of this prophecy, the events of verse 27, occur after the events of verse 26, which the latest happened, [history tells us] in 70 AD.

Now in verse 27 we see the Temple "language" and activities being both initiated and interrupted by the same "he", which by all grammatical sense, refers to the last person mentioned in the referenced prophetic verbiage.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:26-27

Hi Deborah,

I was waiting for you to explain your position in this matter of the "he" in verse 27.

The last person mentioned is the "prince who is to come", in verse 26.

According to the Chronological structure of this prophecy, the events of verse 27, occur after the events of verse 26, which the latest happened, [history tells us] in 70 AD.

Now in verse 27 we see the Temple "language" and activities being both initiated and interrupted by the same "he", which by all grammatical sense, refers to the last person mentioned in the referenced prophetic verbiage.


JLB

Hi JLB, hope all is well with you.

"Now in verse 27 we see the Temple "language" and activities being both initiated and interrupted by the same "he", which by all grammatical sense, refers to the last person mentioned in the referenced prophetic verbiage"

The problem, as I see it, is that the pronoun 'he' actually modifies the last 'subject of the sentence' mentioned.
So in the sentence " the people, of the prince" the subject of the sentence is 'the people'. 'of the prince' is a prepositional phrase modifying (describing) 'the people'.
We know that 'he' cannot be talking about 'the people' so we have to go back to the sentences before to find the last 'masculine subject of a sentence'.
I believe I am correct about this in both English and Greek (so how does the LXX translate it from the Hebrew)? Did both the KJV and the NASB incorrectly constructed the sentence in v26 when translating into English.

Well maybe???

Young's Literal Translation

25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.
27And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'
This translation may give you some relief from the above rule seeing 'the Leader' does appear to be the subject with "who hath come" being the modifier (I think. This from an A+ grammar student. But it's been a long time now!:)

L.C.L. Brenton's Translation of the LXX (1851)

25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.
27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.
I don't think this translation is completely accurate because in the Hebrew text called the (WLS), which is considered the most authoritative by most Jews, It does use the word "om" or "am" translated people/nation. This translation doesn't even use the word people or nation at all.

So if we just stay honest about the grammar what do you think?
Blessings

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB, hope all is well with you.

"Now in verse 27 we see the Temple "language" and activities being both initiated and interrupted by the same "he", which by all grammatical sense, refers to the last person mentioned in the referenced prophetic verbiage"

The problem, as I see it, is that the pronoun 'he' actually modifies the last 'subject of the sentence' mentioned.
So in the sentence " the people, of the prince" the subject of the sentence is 'the people'. 'of the prince' is a prepositional phrase modifying (describing) 'the people'.
We know that 'he' cannot be talking about 'the people' so we have to go back to the sentences before to find the last 'masculine subject of a sentence'.
I believe I am correct about this in both English and Greek (so how does the LXX translate it from the Hebrew)? Did both the KJV and the NASB incorrectly constructed the sentence in v26 when translating into English.

Well maybe???

Young's Literal Translation

25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.
27And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'
This translation may give you some relief from the above rule seeing 'the Leader' does appear to be the subject with "who hath come" being the modifier (I think. This from an A+ grammar student. But it's been a long time now!:)

L.C.L. Brenton's Translation of the LXX (1851)

25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.
27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.
I don't think this translation is completely accurate because in the Hebrew text called the (WLS), which is considered the most authoritative by most Jews, It does use the word "om" or "am" translated people/nation. This translation doesn't even use the word people or nation at all.

So if we just stay honest about the grammar what do you think?
Blessings

I know if we are honest about the grammar, and the context of vs 26 and 27 it is clear that the prince, is the last person mentioned in verse 26.

The fact that he is to come, does not negate the grammatical truth of him being the last person mention.

Likewise, "he" is the one to both initiate the activity associated with the Temple, as well as "put an end to sacrifice and offering".

This is all accomplished sometime after the year 70 AD.


JLB

 

[reba]

Chopper Was the Temple destroyed in 70 ad? Most of us say yes..... Can we find a time when God did not warn the Israelites of what He was going to do? Seems to me He always sent a prophet...with a waring .. The last time He sent His Son... to me the Olivet Discourse is the warning of the coming destruction....... I see it simply God used the Romans to do the dirty work just as He did at the Cross. Folks will Say I believe the Scriptures literally yet over look this literal line
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: It was written to those then Just Like Jesus said "this generation "


As far as looking for a man made temple... Jesus is the Chief corner stone and He is not man made...




Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Sinthesis says things so much better then i do... and jason knows a big bunch of Jewish history ......


I have a kitchen to clean so i got to run it wouldn't hurt me to look up the verses instead of off the top of my head....

 

[Sinthesis]

Read Dan 9:25(YLT) and we see 'Messiah the Leader' is to whom the 69wks countdown. Do you notice in the YLT version of Dan 9:26(YLT) how the words Messiah and Leader are both capitalized? Clearly the 'Messiah' is also the 'Leader who hath come' at the end of the 69wks. Then Dan 9:27(YLT) explains the Messiah's role in the 70th week of the prophecy for Judaism, but the phrase 'even to the consummation' suggests that the end is not within the 70th week, just the beginning of the end.

 

[JLB]

... the man of sin is revealed, that he may be revealed in his own time, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God... 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,6-8
Everything about the Coming of the Lord, the gathering of His people at the Resurrection/Rapture, as well as the "false messiah" going to the temple to be "REVEALED".

The three things that must be present, all at the same time, for this scripture to be fulfilled is:

• The Temple.
• The man of sin, son of perdition, lawless one, antichrist, the prince who is to come... [whatever name you choose to describe him by]
• Jesus Christ; Who destroys him by the brightness of His Coming.

All three will converge at the end of the age for a climatic fulfillment of prophecy.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Read Dan 9:25(YLT) and we see 'Messiah the Leader' is to whom the 69wks countdown. Do you notice in the YLT version of Dan 9:26(YLT) how the words Messiah and Leader are both capitalized? Clearly the 'Messiah' is also the 'Leader who hath come' at the end of the 69wks. Then Dan 9:27(YLT) explains the Messiah's role in the 70th week of the prophecy for Judaism, but the phrase 'even to the consummation' suggests that the end is not within the 70th week, just the beginning of the end.

That's what I see.
So to me no matter how it is written, KJV or YLT, the grammar points to the Messiah.

 

[reba]

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Is/will a temple built to have blood sacrifices be a temple of God?
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Or could this verse be looking at the temple that stood at the time... Herod's temple?

 

[JLB]

That's what I see.
So to me no matter how it is written, KJV or YLT, the grammar points to the Messiah.

How so?

How does one go backwards, in this chronological prophecy, and jump across the last person mentioned, to associate the Messiah with the activities of the Abomination of Desolation, as well as the confirming of a temporary 7 year covenant, that has no scriptural basis.

The Messiah Comes again at the end of the age, and raises us up on the last day, that is when He appears on the seen again.

The events of the 7 year period, and especially the 3 1/2 year tribulation, involve a Temple, a lawless one who goes to the Temple and proclaims himself as god.

All of these things occur 3 1/2 years before the end of the age, and do not involve the Lord Jesus until He returns and destroys the lawless one with the brightness of His Coming.

Your interpretation violates grammar, context as well as the counsel and reconciliation of other scriptures the relate to this matter.

"he" refers to the last person mentioned, which is without a doubt the prince who is to come, that he may be revealed in his own time, and the "he" will be destroyed by the brightness of His Coming.

Which is to say, the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."


JLB

 

[Chopper]

OK Folks, here I am in the correct forum. I'm such a dummy some times. Thank you Eugene for helping me see that....In the future, you can say "HEY, DUMMY! I made a mistake in the dates, I realize I gave the dates for full preterist, not partial preterist. What follows is going to be part preterist and when it goes beyond 70 AD I will give the Futurist View. In my mind, that will be "partial Preterist." I'll return after I draft it up.

 

[Chopper]

Here is the dating of the 70 weeks of Daniel.
I am posting a Partial Preterist view, in my opinion. This is authentic preterist view with the remaining years past 70 AD with the Futerist View. The futurist view is exactly like the preterist view up to 70 AD.

605 BC Exile (Dan 1:1) Beginning of captivity, 70yrs.
586 BC Fall of Jerusalem, middle of captivity.
538 BC Decree of Cyrus (Ezra 1), End of captivity.
458 BC Decree of Artaxerxes (Ezra 7).
445 BC Decree of Artaxerxes (Neh. 2:1, 5).
164 AD Judas Maccabeus cleanses Temple; death of Antiochus IV.
538 to 26-33 Messiah you have 7 "sevens" + 62 yrs.
26-33 AD Years of Messiah.
26-33 AD Baptism of Jesus.
26-33 to 70 AD Messiah cut off and new covenant half way through.
70 AD Destruction of Jerusalem.
70 AD End of sacrifice in "middle" of 70th week = 70th "seven".
Half way through the tribulation, Abomination of Desolation.
End of tribulation, Second Coming.

I took this information from my ESV study version, p.1608. If you have questions about this, the best that I can do is see if your answer is in some of the study notes. I don't want you to think that I'm a genius or something.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper Was the Temple destroyed in 70 ad? Most of us say yes..... Can we find a time when God did not warn the Israelites of what He was going to do? Seems to me He always sent a prophet...with a waring .. The last time He sent His Son... to me the Olivet Discourse is the warning of the coming destruction....... I see it simply God used the Romans to do the dirty work just as He did at the Cross. Folks will Say I believe the Scriptures literally yet over look this literal line
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: It was written to those then Just Like Jesus said "this generation "


As far as looking for a man made temple... Jesus is the Chief corner stone and He is not man made...




Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Sinthesis says things so much better then i do... and jason knows a big bunch of Jewish history ......


I have a kitchen to clean so i got to run it wouldn't hurt me to look up the verses instead of off the top of my head....

Yes Reba, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Boy, did God ever warn His people of a doomed future. Of course, Jesus was an enemy to Israel and they would not listen to Him anyway. As far as a man made Temple, Jesus is the cornerstone and His Church is the temple made up of individual believers of whom the Holy Spirit dwells. I guess we are individual little temples making up a large temple not made with hands.

 

[reba]

Chopper's thread 0n Rapture The name is changed to hopefully end confusion

 

[Chopper]

Here is the dating of the 70 weeks of Daniel.
I am posting a Partial Preterist view, in my opinion. This is authentic preterist view with the remaining years past 70 AD with the Futerist View. The futurist view is exactly like the preterist view up to 70 AD.

605 BC Exile (Dan 1:1) Beginning of captivity, 70yrs.
586 BC Fall of Jerusalem, middle of captivity.
538 BC Decree of Cyrus (Ezra 1), End of captivity.
458 BC Decree of Artaxerxes (Ezra 7).
445 BC Decree of Artaxerxes (Neh. 2:1, 5).
164 AD Judas Maccabeus cleanses Temple; death of Antiochus IV.
538 to 26-33 Messiah you have 7 "sevens" + 62 yrs.
26-33 AD Years of Messiah.
26-33 AD Baptism of Jesus.
26-33 to 70 AD Messiah cut off and new covenant half way through.
70 AD Destruction of Jerusalem.
70 AD End of sacrifice in "middle" of 70th week = 70th "seven".
Half way through the tribulation, Abomination of Desolation.
End of tribulation, Second Coming.

I took this information from my ESV study version, p.1608. If you have questions about this, the best that I can do is see if your answer is in some of the study notes. I don't want you to think that I'm a genius or something.

I sure hope that this post might help putting your Scripyures in order a little better than in the past. It may not be perfect , but I think it's within the ballpark....Don't forget to turn your clocks back 1 hr. Oh boy, extra sleep for Reba.

 

[reba]

us old gals need the beauty rest

 

[Chopper]

us old gals need the beauty rest

Old guys as well, sleep tight?

 

[reba]

70 AD Destruction of Jerusalem. Is the tribulation , Abomination of Desolation.70 AD End of animal sacrifice I think the siege started a bit earlier then 70 AD
The growing of His Kingdom
Second Coming.

 

[JLB]

70 AD Destruction of Jerusalem. Is the tribulation , Abomination of Desolation.70 AD End of animal sacrifice I think the siege started a bit earlier then 70 AD
The growing of His Kingdom
Second Coming.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew24:21

The city of Jerusalem as well as the Temple were destroyed once already by King Nebuchadnezzar.

So the events of 70 AD, with the destruction of the city and sanctuary are DISQUALIFIED as being the Great Tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of the world, nor shall ever be.

This is another key to understanding from Daniel, what Jesus was teaching from the Mount of Olives.


JLB

 

[reba]

Different views JLB

glad you found the thread hope it is not so confusing with the name change...