Chopper's thread 0n Rapture

[JLB]

Different views JLB

glad you found the thread hope it is not so confusing with the name change...

I can appreciate different views.

However, there can be no mistake. Great Tribulation, as well as the return of Jesus Christ to Gather His people at the Resurrection just did not happen in 70 AD.



JLB

 

[reba]

I have never said it all did.... Sure you remember the Scriptures posted of the resurrection being the last day.

 

[Chopper]

70 AD Destruction of Jerusalem. Is the tribulation , Abomination of Desolation.70 AD End of animal sacrifice I think the siege started a bit earlier then 70 AD
The growing of His Kingdom
Second Coming.

Reba, the problem, as I see it, is if what you say, that the tribulation, instead of a tribulation, happened at 70 AD, it seems to me that you are placing yourself in the "full preterist" camp. Remember that full preterists see nothing happening past 70 AD.

 

[reba]

Chopper i am not skilled in writing.... not one bit...from my limited understanding.... Full preterist do not believe in the great white thrown judgement, His return, or the last day resurrection. Please do not quote me as i am not speaking for any one.... I simply believe the olivet Discourse was the warning/prophesy of the coming destruction of the 70 ad era .... Jesus said a few things like He said 'this generation" i ask you who was/is the generation

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Who was He talking to?

I have not search out the label of preterist it was put on me because of the Scripture i posted....

 

[Chopper]

Chopper i am not skilled in writing.... not one bit...from my limited understanding.... Full preterist do not believe in the great white thrown judgement, His return, or the last day resurrection. Please do not quote me as i am not speaking for any one.... I simply believe the olivet Discourse was the warning/prophesy of the coming destruction of the 70 ad era .... Jesus said a few things like He said 'this generation" i ask you who was/is the generation

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Who was He talking to?

I have not search out the label of preterist it was put on me because of the Scripture i posted....

OK Reba, please forgive me for placing you in a position that you are not. Unfortunately, I pick up on words spoken and make certain discernments about them. I will remember this in the future. You are right in your evaluation of the full preterist doctrine.

I'm glad you asked me about Matthew 24:34. "this generation" are the ones who see v.29. It will be after the tribulation, with the sun, moon and stars making their actions, the Son of Man will come. I believe that will come soon, perhaps in our lifetime because a lot of signs that are spoken about, are happening now.

 

[reba]

The 'this generation' i quoted was from Luke
When we compare Scripture to scripture...
Matt 24...

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

 

[reba]

No apology needed Chopper the written word with out seeing facial expression can be very hard to follow...

 

[JLB]

Chopper i am not skilled in writing.... not one bit...from my limited understanding.... Full preterist do not believe in the great white thrown judgement, His return, or the last day resurrection. Please do not quote me as i am not speaking for any one.... I simply believe the olivet Discourse was the warning/prophesy of the coming destruction of the 70 ad era .... Jesus said a few things like He said 'this generation" i ask you who was/is the generation

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Who was He talking to?

I have not search out the label of preterist it was put on me because of the Scripture i posted....

46 And He said, "Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,' 50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation. Luke 11:46-51


Jesus was speaking to the Scribes and Pharisee's.

This generation pertains to the generation to whom the context is assigned.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The 'this generation' i quoted was from Luke
When we compare Scripture to scripture...
Matt 24...

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

It is comments like this that place you in the full preterist camp.

This generation pertains to the generation to whom the context is assigned.


JLB

 

[reba]

This generation pertains to the generation to whom the context is assigned.

We agree

Is not comparing scripture to scripture the proper thing to do?

 

[JLB]

We agree

Is not comparing scripture to scripture the proper thing to do?

We do not agree.

You say Jesus returned in 70 AD.

The scriptures say -

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

The scriptures teach He will come to gather His people at the Resurrection on the last Day.

70 AD was certainly not the last Day.


JLB

 

[reba]

Can you show me a post where i have said such?

 

[turnorburn]

I didn't know this thread was going to be about preterists when it started, before this I'd never heard of preterism, as for a definition in scripture, would this be preterist thinking?

II Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

tob

 

[Chopper]

No apology needed Chopper the written word with out seeing facial expression can be very hard to follow...

Yep, you are right. Actually, when you think about it, a forum is so much fun and informative, but boy, o boy, can it be difficult to really understand where a person is coming from, especially because we're not face to face.

 

[reba]

Jesus says very plainly over and over the resurrection is the last day ... and about 2000 years ago was certainly not the last day

 

[JLB]

I didn't know this thread was going to be about preterists when it started, before this I'd never heard of preterism, as for a definition in scripture, would this be preterist thinking?

II Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

tob

Yes sir. You are dead on!


JLB

 

[Chopper]

The 'this generation' i quoted was from Luke
When we compare Scripture to scripture...
Matt 24...

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

I agree, Matt. 24 and Luke 21 are saying the same thing.
Your post of Gen. 37:9, 10, some theologians compare it to Rev. 12, the woman & dragon. MacArthur says, "In the imagery of Josephs dream, the sun represents Jacob, the moon Rachel, and the eleven stars Joseph's brothers.

 

[JLB]

Can you show me a post where i have said such?

Now to 70 ad.... Here is a list? of some things

IN OT times when God had had enough of the Israelites He warned them the hammer was coming down more then once.

I believe in the same vain He warned the Christians, His body , 2000 years ago destruction was coming again.
The scripture case can be made for this...You may not agree with how i see the scripture i dont agree with you but its OK i do see why you think what you do...
We have Mat 23 ... There is also some timing.. Jesus said this generation Taking that into account the end of that generation was 70 ad. I am not asking you to agree.. I find it interesting that the good ol number 40 shows up About 40 years after His Cross the City and temple are destroyed. Over ran by gentiles. these events can fit into scripture...

We hear of 3 1/2 years i ask you how long was Jesus' earthly ministry?

This is just one post of yours where you are defending the idea that Matthew 24, which states the Coming of the Lord in the clouds, as well as the great tribulation, takes place in 70 AD.

The topic of the thread in which you posted this was Matthew 24.


So how about clarifying your stance on Matthew 24.

Do you believe this scripture pertains to 70 AD or the later at the end of the age, at the resurrection?

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

Did this scripture occur in 70 AD?



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I know if we are honest about the grammar, and the context of vs 26 and 27 it is clear that the prince, is the last person mentioned in verse 26.

The fact that he is to come, does not negate the grammatical truth of him being the last person mention.

Likewise, "he" is the one to both initiate the activity associated with the Temple, as well as "put an end to sacrifice and offering".

This is all accomplished sometime after the year 70 AD.


JLB

Well, JLB I will have to concede and apologize.
I am wrong that an antecedent (that is not within the prep. phrase itself) of the pronoun will not Ever be in a preposition phrase. There is not a fast rule. What I found said was, that "generally the antecedent of a pronoun will not be found in a prep. phrase".
Online I even found one site where there was a disagreement over this type of occurrence, only whether the pronoun should be sing. or plural. lol. It was between a English PH D and the answer on a SAT exam. The SAT said, it should be sing. because the subject was sing.. The PH D said, it could be plural as well because the it made sense in the context.

However, your 'last mention' doesn't work either.
Mary, who is Susan's sister called John, but no one answered the phone.
She tried again the next day and got the same result.

So it appears that the grammar cannot give us a firm answer.
Thanks for disagreeing, I learned something.

And moving on....

 

[JLB]

Example:
Mary called Susan yesterday, but when she called no one answered the phone.
The pronoun "she" is not referring to Susan.
Mary is the antecedent of the pronoun 'she'. Mary is the subject of the sentence.


Well, JLB I will have to concede and apologize.
I am wrong that an antecedent (that is not within the prep. phrase itself) of the pronoun will not Ever be in a preposition phrase. There is not a fast rule. What I found said was, that "generally the antecedent of a pronoun will not be found in a prep. phrase".
Online I even found one site where there was a disagreement over this type of occurrence, only whether the pronoun should be sing. or plural. lol. It was between a English PH D and the answer on a SAT exam. The SAT said, it should be sing. because the subject was sing.. The PH D said, it could be plural as well because the it made sense in the context.

However, your 'last mention' doesn't work either.
Mary, who is Susan's sister called John, but no one answered the phone.
She tried again the next day and got the same result.

So it appears that the grammar cannot give us a firm answer.
Thanks for disagreeing, I learned something.

And moving on....

So we have two choices in which to apply "he" to in Daniel 9:27.

Choice #1 - the prince who is to come.

Choice # 2 - Messiah the Prince

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .

• "he" confirms a covenant for 7 years. - he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week
  
• "he" puts an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of this 7 year covenant, that "he" confirms. - he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
  
• "he" shall make it desolate, by the abominations. - for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

Jesus is Holy and does not desolate the holy place or the temple.
Jesus never confirmed a 7 year covenant.
Jesus never caused to cease, sacrifice and offering.



I believe this scripture is referring to the prince who is to come, who is a ruler on earth during the 70 th week, just like the rulers on earth began and influenced the 70 weeks, starting with Cyrus.

God in heaven, initiated and influenced human rulers to began and and be involved in the 70 weeks.

The 70 th week has nothing what so ever to do with the year 70 AD.


JLB