Chopper's thread 0n Rapture

[Chopper]

who is the 'he ' you speak of?

That would be the antichrist. As in 2 Thess. 2, the antichrist sets himself up as God, thus the abomination of desolation.

 

[JLB]

The 70th week follows directly after the 69th week, or else it wouldn't be the 70th week.

I suppose one could say today we are in the 352nd week.
Or if you need to believe the '70th' week has yet to happen then we could be counting down hide-and-seek style at the 69-and-282/283rd week. Wait, that's silly because it would still put us beyond the 69th week, which is into the 70th week.

What is silly is you deny what the reality of Daniel 9: 26-27 shows , and then mocking that truth.

Verse 26 brought us to the year 70 AD, without the events of verse 27 as having started.

You can't seem to get that, so you mock others who can see.

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I don't know what you mean by this statement. It is not in Daniel 9:27.


... for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

Are you saying Jesus is the Desolater of the temple?

So we have two choices in which to apply "he" to in Daniel 9:27.

Choice #1 - the prince who is to come.

Choice # 2 - Messiah the Prince

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .

• "he" shall make it desolate, by the abominations. - for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...

Jesus is Holy and does not desolate the holy place or the temple.


I believe this scripture is referring to the prince who is to come, who is a ruler on earth during the 70 th week, just like the rulers on earth began and influenced the 70 weeks, starting with Cyrus.

God in heaven, initiated and influenced human rulers to began and and be involved in the 70 weeks.

The 70 th week has nothing what so ever to do with the year 70 AD.


JLB

#2 - Messiah
Parable of the wedding.

Mat 22:6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

 

[turnorburn]

Are we trying to put our finger on the antichrist's identity?

tob

 

[JLB]

#2 - Messiah
Parable of the wedding.

Mat 22:6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

So you are saying the identity of "he" in Daniel 9:27 is the Messiah, and not the prince who is to come?


You seem to continue to believe that desolation in verse 27 refers to destruction, when the definition does not support that.

As of verse 26, the temple is destroyed.
In verse 27 we see the temple is having sacrifices and then being desolated, which means-

Strong's Number: 08074
Original WordWord Origin
~mXa primitive root
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
ShamemTWOT - 2409
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
shaw-mame' Verb
Definition

1. to be desolate, be appalled, stun, stupefy
   1. (Qal)
      1. to be desolated, be deflowered, be deserted, be appalled
      2. to be appalled, be awestruck
   2. (Niphal)
      1. to be desolated, be made desolate
      2. to be appalled
   3. (Polel)
      1. to be stunned
      2. appalling, causing horror (participle) 1c
   4. horror-causer, appaller (subst)
   5. (Hiphil)
      1. to devastate, ravage, make desolated
      2. to appal, show horror
   6. (Hophal) to lay desolate, be desolated
   7. (Hithpolel)
      1. to cause to be desolate
      2. to be appalled, be astounded
      3. to cause oneself desolation, cause oneself ruin

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus is the only Prince who was promised to Israel, the Messiah.
Jesus is Holy. Conversely, by rejecting Christ and His teaching, the Jewish temple had become a spiritual abomination which needed to be physically destroyed so as not to slander God.
For seven years Jesus and His disciples confirmed to many Jews that He was the Messiah whom the covenant had promised.
After the Cross, the scapegoat's thread never turned white to signify God accepted it on Israel's behalf for atonement. Why? Because Christ's sacrifice was the only acceptable atonement.

The 70th week was from 26-33AD. The temple's destruction and failure to be rebuilt over the last two millennia are best understood in light of Jesus' bodily death and resurrection three days later.

This is exactly what I believe.
The destruction was determined within the 70 wks and consummated in 70 AD.

 

[Deborah13]

So you are saying the identity of "he" in Daniel 9:27 is the Messiah, and not the prince who is to come?


You seem to continue to believe that desolation in verse 27 refers to destruction, when the definition does not support that.

As of verse 26, the temple is destroyed.
In verse 27 we see the temple is having sacrifices and then being desolated, which means-

Strong's Number: 08074
Original WordWord Origin
~mXa primitive root
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
ShamemTWOT - 2409
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
shaw-mame' Verb
Definition

1. to be desolate, be appalled, stun, stupefy
   1. (Qal)
      1. to be desolated, be deflowered, be deserted, be appalled
      2. to be appalled, be awestruck
   2. (Niphal)
      1. to be desolated, be made desolate
      2. to be appalled
   3. (Polel)
      1. to be stunned
      2. appalling, causing horror (participle) 1c
   4. horror-causer, appaller (subst)
   5. (Hiphil)
      1. to devastate, ravage, make desolated
      2. to appal, show horror
   6. (Hophal) to lay desolate, be desolated
   7. (Hithpolel)
      1. to cause to be desolate
      2. to be appalled, be astounded
      3. to cause oneself desolation, cause oneself ruin

JLB

No I don't believe it means physical destruction or any destruction.

I see desolation as being emptiness, hollow...much like the first definition above. Deserted.

 

[JLB]

This is exactly what I believe.
The destruction was determined within the 70 wks and consummated in 70 AD.

Please explain what you mean by, "the destruction was determined within the 70 weeks".

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

To restore and build Jerusalem...The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

Where is "this destruction" you speak of, that was "determined" within the 70 weeks?

I don't see any reference to "destruction" of the Jerusalem or the temple in the prophecy, only the opposite the restoration and rebuilding.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Please explain what you mean by, "the destruction was determined within the 70 weeks".

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

To restore and build Jerusalem...The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

Where is "this destruction" you speak of, that was "determined" within the 70 weeks?

I don't see any reference to "destruction" of the Jerusalem or the temple in the prophecy, only the opposite the restoration and rebuilding.


JLB

Daniel tells us what was desolate. Jerusalem, thy sanctuary, and Daniel's people.

Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
Dan 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
So when I said destruction I am only speaking of the outcome of events, which I can see why you are questioning my wording.
So I need to state this more clearly.

So what I am saying is that everything that happened was determined within those 70 wks, in fact at the beginning I think (which you shouldn't have any problem with I would think) but was not consummated until 70 AD.
Much like a marriage was determined long before it was consummated.

9:27 "......even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

[JLB]

Daniel tells us what was desolate. Jerusalem, thy sanctuary, and Daniel's people.

Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
Dan 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
So when I said destruction I am only speaking of the outcome of events, which I can see why you are questioning my wording.
So I need to state this more clearly.

So what I am saying is that everything that happened was determined within those 70 wks, in fact at the beginning I think (which you shouldn't have any problem with I would think) but was not consummated until 70 AD.
Much like a marriage was determined long before it was consummated.

9:27 "......even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

That is verse 27 you are quoting, where you stated -

No I don't believe it means physical destruction or any destruction.
I see desolation as being emptiness, hollow...much like the first definition above. Deserted.

So you now don't get to use verse 27 as meaning the destruction of the city and sanctuary in 70 AD, as you have stated.

We are discussing your comment, whereby you have stated -

The destruction was determined within the 70 wks and consummated in 70 AD.

Destruction is not found in the contents of the prophecy.

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. Daniel 9:24-25

Rather, we see God's plan to restore and build Jerusalem even in troublesome times.

Again, Deb,

Where are getting the idea of a "determined" destruction of the temple and the city from?

It's just not in the prophecy we are discussing.

Please re-think your position in this matter.


Thanks, JLB

 

[Deborah13]

That is verse 27 you are quoting, where you stated -



So you now don't get to use verse 27 as meaning the destruction of the city and sanctuary in 70 AD, as you have stated.

We are discussing your comment, whereby you have stated -

The destruction was determined within the 70 wks and consummated in 70 AD.

Destruction is not found in the contents of the prophecy.

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. Daniel 9:24-25

Rather, we see God's plan to restore and build Jerusalem even in troublesome times.

Again, Deb,

Where are getting the idea of a "determined" destruction of the temple and the city from?

It's just not in the prophecy we are discussing.

Please re-think your position in this matter.


Thanks, JLB

I believe everything in the 70 wks was determined. I think you do, too. We just don't agree on what those things were Or maybe when they happen.

Consummated means completed, full end. The reason I say destruction is because v26 tells us there was destruction. I believe that was only part of what was completed. So there was physical destruction as well as desolation. In fact, the physical destruction just completed the desolation of the place.
But more importantly was the spiritual desolation was made complete. God's Spirit was no longer there.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I put the destruction of the city and sanctuary in the 3.5 yrs. before the completion of 70 AD.
When do you believe this will happen?
I know you are post trib. so at least we don't have the rapture to deal with...phew!

Blessings JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe everything in the 70 wks was determined. I think you do, too. We just don't agree on what those things were Or maybe when they happen.

Consummated means completed, full end. The reason I say destruction is because v26 tells us there was destruction. I believe that was only part of what was completed. So there was physical destruction as well as desolation. In fact, the physical destruction just completed the desolation of the place.
But more importantly was the spiritual desolation was made complete. God's Spirit was no longer there.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I put the destruction of the city and sanctuary in the 3.5 yrs. before the completion of 70 AD.
When do you believe this will happen?
I know you are post trib. so at least we don't have the rapture to deal with...phew!

Blessings JLB

Deb,

I ask you to see the fact that the events of 70 AD, ie; the destruction of the city and sanctuary, did not happen within the 70 weeks time frame.

Once you can realize this simple truth, we can truly discuss this prophecy as well as what Jesus taught us in the Olivet Discourse.

Chopper, do you see this?



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Deb,

I ask you to see the fact that the events of 70 AD, ie; the destruction of the city and sanctuary, did not happen within the 70 weeks time frame.

Once you can realize this simple truth, we can truly discuss this prophecy as well as what Jesus taught us in the Olivet Discourse.

Chopper, do you see this?

JLB

I ask you to see the fact that the events of 70 AD, ie; the destruction of the city and sanctuary, did not happen within the 70 weeks time frame.

I agree, the destruction happened in 70AD and not in the 70 wks.
But that the destruction was determined (chathak = to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out) before and within the 70 wks. I believe that when they rejected Jesus they sealed their destiny. And when they said, let His blood be on us and our children, they spoke the curse upon themselves.

Jesus is the only Prince who was promised to Israel, the Messiah.
Jesus is Holy. Conversely, by rejecting Christ and His teaching, the Jewish temple had become a spiritual abomination which needed to be physically destroyed so as not to slander God.
For seven years Jesus and His disciples confirmed to many Jews that He was the Messiah whom the covenant had promised.
After the Cross, the scapegoat's thread never turned white to signify God accepted it on Israel's behalf for atonement. Why? Because Christ's sacrifice was the only acceptable atonement.

The 70th week was from 26-33AD. The temple's destruction and failure to be rebuilt over the last two millennia are best understood in light of Jesus' bodily death and resurrection three days later.

What Sinthesis says in this post is what I believe. See the part I bolded. I believe that during the 70th wk this is what happened, this would include the ministry of Stephan for approx. 3.5 yrs that ended in his death by stoning.

 

[JLB]

I agree, the destruction happened in 70AD and not in the 70 wks.
But that the destruction was determined (chathak = to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out) before and within the 70 wks. I believe that when they rejected Jesus they sealed their destiny. And when they said, let His blood be on us and our children, they spoke the curse upon themselves.



What Sinthesis says in this post is what I believe. See the part I bolded. I believe that during the 70th wk this is what happened, this would include the ministry of Stephan for approx. 3.5 yrs that ended in his death by stoning.

Ok, so you agree that the events of 70 AD, did not occur within the 70 weeks time frame.

Now, you need to see that there is no destruction "determined" in the prophecy about the 70 weeks.

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. Daniel 9:24-25

Nothing about the prophecy of the 70 weeks contains any language about the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

The destruction of the city and sanctuary take place after the 69 weeks.

The destruction of the city and sanctuary take place before the 70th week.

The 70th week occurs in verse 27, which takes place after the events of 70 AD


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Ok, so you agree that the events of 70 AD, did not occur within the 70 weeks time frame.

Now, you need to see that there is no destruction "determined" in the prophecy about the 70 weeks.

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. Daniel 9:24-25

Nothing about the prophecy of the 70 weeks contains any language about the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

The destruction of the city and sanctuary take place after the 69 weeks.

The destruction of the city and sanctuary take place before the 70th week.

The 70th week occurs in verse 27, which takes place after the events of 70 AD

JLB

I do understand what you are saying but I see it differently.
I believe that one has to keep the weeks together. Either all of the 70 wks are in the future or they are all referring to the first coming of the Messiah.
Not 69 in the past and one still out in the future.

Well I'm done for tonight.
Blessings

 

[JLB]

I do understand what you are saying but I see it differently.
I believe that one has to keep the weeks together. Either all of the 70 wks are in the future or they are all referring to the first coming of the Messiah.
Not 69 in the past and one still out in the future.

Well I'm done for tonight.
Blessings

The destruction of the city and sanctuary in 70 AD, is not a part of the 70 weeks time frame.

Verse 27, and specifically the language of the Abomination of Desolation, which is the "trigger" for the Great Tribulation, is associated with the time of the end and the resurrection.

The Middle of the week language of the great Tribulation, which is 3 1/2 years is also associated with the AOD and the time of the Resurrection.

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt... 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished... 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 12:1-2,7,11


All of the key elements in Daniel:

• The 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation.
• The Abomination of Desolation.
• The resurrection of the dead.

Are all associated with the end of days.

13 But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

Not the year 70 AD.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Greetings to all from sunny, cold, Massachusetts. I feel it's time I brought this great thread to a conclusion. Together, we have commented, researched, and learned from each other in a good way. Not only did I really want a true picture of end times theology, but I wanted a thread where we could cooperate with each other without offending remarks and I must say that I'm happy with the results.

After evaluating these different positions on End Times; Partial Preterist, Pre, Mid, Post-Trib Rapture of Christ's Church. I will gather up all the notes I have made from your posts, and post my conclusions....In saying that, I don't want anyone to think that I have set myself up as an expert on the subject because I'm not! I have entered this project with an open mind with no preconceptions. In fact, because of evidence provided by some of you, I changed my position from what I had held for many years.

God bless Reba and Eugene who have had the difficult task of keeping us cowboys from having a rodeo. They really followed this thread very closely and kept it running smoothly. Thank you so much, I'm only as good as my Moderators.

I will return soon.

 

[Chopper]

Greetings to all from sunny, cold, Massachusetts. I feel it's time I brought this great thread to a conclusion. Together, we have commented, researched, and learned from each other in a good way. Not only did I really want a true picture of end times theology, but I wanted a thread where we could cooperate with each other without offending remarks and I must say that I'm happy with the results.

After evaluating these different positions on End Times; Partial Preterist, Pre, Mid, Post-Trib Rapture of Christ's Church. I will gather up all the notes I have made from your posts, and post my conclusions....In saying that, I don't want anyone to think that I have set myself up as an expert on the subject because I'm not! I have entered this project with an open mind with no preconceptions. In fact, because of evidence provided by some of you, I changed my position from what I had held for many years.

God bless Reba and Eugene who have had the difficult task of keeping us cowboys from having a rodeo. They really followed this thread very closely and kept it running smoothly. Thank you so much, I'm only as good as my Moderators.

I will return soon.

P.S. It is up to the moderators as to what goes on until I return.

 

[reba]

Chopper if the members post this will remain open.. .. The smilies are back home here... so we must behave.... Dont stay away to long...

 

[Sinthesis]

I believe everything in the 70 wks was determined. I think you do, too. We just don't agree on what those things were Or maybe when they happen.

Consummated means completed, full end. The reason I say destruction is because v26 tells us there was destruction. I believe that was only part of what was completed. So there was physical destruction as well as desolation. In fact, the physical destruction just completed the desolation of the place.
But more importantly was the spiritual desolation was made complete. God's Spirit was no longer there.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I put the destruction of the city and sanctuary in the 3.5 yrs. before the completion of 70 AD.
When do you believe this will happen?
I know you are post trib. so at least we don't have the rapture to deal with...phew!

Blessings JLB

I don't think Dan 9:26 is only talking about the physical destruction of the city and sanctuary.
Consider the word used for destroy - Strong's H7843 - shachath
Here it is Hiphil imperfect, translated:

1. to spoil, ruin, destroy
2. to pervert, corrupt (morally)

So my thinking is that the people of the promised Messiah (Jesus was Jewish), given the violent reaction of their leadership to the Gospel, corrupted the spiritual identity of God's city and sanctuary, thereby slandering God. This is what warrants their ultimate desolation, which is also not just physical. - see Strong's H8074 - shamem

1. to be desolated, be deflowered, be deserted, be appalled
2. to be appalled, be awestruck

Thank you for pointing out that Daniel's prayer earlier in the chapter illustrates the spiritually appalling nature of Israel's desolation during the Babylonian captivity.