Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[Larry H]

No, this doesn't create any dilemmas for me. Those who are raised at the resurrection will not marry, however, I don't see anything that is speaking of the nations not marrying.

Hi Butch

I believe the dilemma is growing since the Nations your referring to will not be around. They will be destroyed prior to the New Heavens and Earth; in the futuristic Paradise you believe will exist.

Revelation 20:7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

8 and will go outto deceive THE NATIONS in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — togather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, thecity he loves. BUT FIRE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURED [the nations] THEM.

If you haves omething more specific concerning your statement please post it. It would not do you justice, or fair to the reader, if we just take you at your word. Please provide scripture on your comment, or try to clear up what you mean.

Are we not speaking about after the corpses come to life in the resurrection?

Hi before time,

The passage you quoted from Isaiah describes the coming of Christ's kingdom, the passage you quoted here describes the end of Christ's kingdom. When Christ comes He will resurrect the believers, not the unbelievers. This is the first resurrection.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is the passage right before what you posted. Notice John speaks of the first resurrection. He says these will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years and then the nations will be destroyed. So, the nations will be here during the thousand years and at the end of that thousand years Satan will be released to tempt the world one more time and then he will be destroyed.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

This is why I said it doesn't cause me a dilemma. I see no reason why these nations would not procreate even though those who have been resurrected do not.

Hi Butch

Thanks for the clarity of your position Butch. Why do you think the believer would not procreate and the Nation would have the pleasure of having children? What would be the point? It would seem according to God's purpose it would be the other way around.

The married couples Adam and Eve were to fill the earth with righteous offspring according to God’spurpose.

I could understand why Christ did not marry or have children; there was a sacrifice in view. If he returns to rule on earth will he be granted to marry and have some kids. Obviously not according to Matthew 22 Is God worried about over population?

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and THEY WILL BECOME ONE FLESH.

1 Timothy 5:14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

So in this paradise earth there is going to be many single women and men running around without giving birth. The Nations will be able to get married and have the greatest pleasure a human can have by getting married and giving birth. Where did Jesus or the Apostles explain this as you have been doing?

Did someone tell you this or did you figure it out for yourself. Help me out here! Can you connect the dots with verses, I’m curious on your answer to these questions. You had asked me in the beginning to give concrete answers to a heavenly resurrection, it your turn now. Sorry for the dilemma expression it was not called for.

 

[George Muller]

George this is nothing but a red herring. You're not answering my questions. Are you on earth? If as you believe the passage says Christians are seated with Christ in the heavens and you are on earth does that mean you are not a Christian?

If you are waiting for me to move from the clear and evident reading of Gods Word? You will be having a very long wait. The scriptures are clear and cannot be removed because you do not believe or understand them. Now I have tried to help you understand how the truth of this scripture is true in the spirit and not in the flesh. We are not saved in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Call it what you like? its Gods Word and it cannot be challenged. God cannot lie and He says we ARE seated IN HEAVEN with Christ.

No George, it's not. The word "places" is not in the Greek text. You can quote that passage a million times and the word "places" still will not be in the Greek text.

BGT Ephesians 2:6 καὶ συνήγειρεν καὶ συνεκάθισεν ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, (Eph 2:6 BGT)

It's heavenly, and it's plural, thus translated the "heavenlies".

Do we have to do this again? No Greek scholar in any way will accept your use of the Greek to take away the clear meaning and intention of this word. The very context of this passage makes the intention of the passage beyond any doubt.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph 2.6

Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Grappler]

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

Well I am in fact seated with Christ in the heavens with Him, just as the scripture says in plain words. I would ask you again, did you see your self get saved? What did it look like when you where born-again? Where did your sins go? Did you see them when His Blood washed them away? No you did not see any of these things, but you read His Word and you believe and trust in their clear intention. Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit? No, but if you are saved you know He abides in you? Now can the Holy Sprit be in you and be in heaven? Yes, Can God reason that we are already raised with Christ, because its true in spirit, not in flesh? Yes, and He cannot lie.

Hey Butch...I think we are done here.:biglol Well...at least I am...see you all on another topic.

When logic and reasoning go out the window its over.

 

[George Muller]

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

 

[smaller]

I believe all of Scripture.

Good, this should be easy for you?

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

Well I am in fact seated with Christ in the heavens with Him, just as the scripture says in plain words. I would ask you again, did you see your self get saved? What did it look like when you where born-again? Where did your sins go? Did you see them when His Blood washed them away? No you did not see any of these things, but you read His Word and you believe and trust in their clear intention. Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit? No, but if you are saved you know He abides in you? Now can the Holy Sprit be in you and be in heaven? Yes, Can God reason that we are already raised with Christ, because its true in spirit, not in flesh? Yes, and He cannot lie.

I believe it's termed 'spiritual discernment.' And you are right. The arena we engage is largely one of the unseen in theology.

Some understand it. A lot don't.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Spirit will speak the exact same language to anyone and everyone who listens.

s

 

[Butch5]

Ok, In Luke 14 Jesus enters the house of one of the chief Pharisees. Once there he begins a series of parables, what is the purpose of these parables? The rich man a Lazarus is one of the parables.

Also, why does Jesus make the comment about adultery, seeming out of the blue just before the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

You win - how's that? I personally believe in heaven, hell, and the lake of fire. I'm not into JW's, Mormonism, Universalism, or other religions teaching otherwise, and I'm not saying you are. If what I have shared is not sufficient I have no desire to go further.

Thanks and have a good day Butch.

Hi Eugene,

I too believe in heaven, hell, and the Lake of Fire. The point I'm trying to make is that in all of these parables Jesus has a central theme. They are all speaking to the Pharisees and their rejection of Christ. Lazarus and the rich man is no different. I submit that Jesus is "not" teaching about the afterlife and contradicting everything the OT says of the subject but rather is using the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to rebuke the Pharisees.

 

[Butch5]

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Context George!

 

[smaller]

Ok, In Luke 14 Jesus enters the house of one of the chief Pharisees. Once there he begins a series of parables, what is the purpose of these parables? The rich man a Lazarus is one of the parables.

Also, why does Jesus make the comment about adultery, seeming out of the blue just before the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

You win - how's that? I personally believe in heaven, hell, and the lake of fire. I'm not into JW's, Mormonism, Universalism, or other religions teaching otherwise, and I'm not saying you are. If what I have shared is not sufficient I have no desire to go further.

Thanks and have a good day Butch.

Hi Eugene,

I too believe in heaven, hell, and the Lake of Fire. The point I'm trying to make is that in all of these parables Jesus has a central theme. They are all speaking to the Pharisees and their rejection of Christ. Lazarus and the rich man is no different. I submit that Jesus is "not" teaching about the afterlife and contradicting everything the OT says of the subject but rather is using the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to rebuke the Pharisees.

Well since there are no longer any Jewish Pharisee's performing the priesthood in thee temple I guess we can now toss away all the parables huh?

lol

s

 

[Butch5]

George this is nothing but a red herring. You're not answering my questions. Are you on earth? If as you believe the passage says Christians are seated with Christ in the heavens and you are on earth does that mean you are not a Christian?

If you are waiting for me to move from the clear and evident reading of Gods Word? You will be having a very long wait. The scriptures are clear and cannot be removed because you do not believe or understand them. Now I have tried to help you understand how the truth of this scripture is true in the spirit and not in the flesh. We are not saved in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Call it what you like? its Gods Word and it cannot be challenged. God cannot lie and He says we ARE seated IN HEAVEN with Christ.

No George, it's not. The word "places" is not in the Greek text. You can quote that passage a million times and the word "places" still will not be in the Greek text.

BGT Ephesians 2:6 καὶ συνήγειρεν καὶ συνεκάθισεν ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, (Eph 2:6 BGT)

It's heavenly, and it's plural, thus translated the "heavenlies".

Do we have to do this again? No Greek scholar in any way will accept your use of the Greek to take away the clear meaning and intention of this word. The very context of this passage makes the intention of the passage beyond any doubt.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

George, it's not my use of the Greek. It's the Scholars you're speaking of who wrote the Greek grammars that we have. Here is what Daniel Wallace says about it in, Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. I highlighted the text in red.

294


► B. The Independent or Substantival Use of the Adjective

1. Definition

The adjective is frequently used independently of a noun. That is, it can function as a substantive (in which case it either implies a noun or takes on the lexical nuance of a noun).

2. Clarification

Usually, though not always, such a substantival adjective will have the article with it to point out that its use is indeed substantival. Some words, such as κύριος (“lordâ€),3 ἔρημος (“desertâ€), διάβολος (“slanderous,†or, as a noun, “the devilâ€), and ἅγιος (“holy,†or, as a noun, “saintâ€), often function as substantives without the arti­cle since they are either often or usually independent of nouns in the NT. Other adjectives, however, usually require the article to make clear that they are being used substantivally.

Furthermore, when the adjective is substantival, its gender is generally fixed by sense rather than by grammatical concord.4 That is to say, if it refers to a male, it will usually be masculine; if it refers to a female, it will usually be feminine; if it refers to an entity or concept, it will be neuter.

3. Illustrations

Matt 6:13
ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ

deliver us from the evil [one]

The devil is in view here, not evil in general. (However, in 5:39 just the evil man is in view.) This is one of the many passages mistranslated in the KJV: “deliver us from evil.†The prayer is not a request for deliverance from evil in general, but from the grasp of the evil one himself.

Matt 13:17
πολλοὶ προφῆται καὶ δίκαιοι

many prophets and righteous [men]

In this text there is no article, but δίκαιοι clearly should be taken substanti­vally. This is probably due to the fact that since πολλοί is a pronominal adj. the article is not required. This being the case, the
295
construction then approximates a plural Granville Sharp construction (see last chapter, Part II, for a discussion of this phenomenon).

Luke 6:45
ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἄνθρωπος ἐκ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ θησαυροῦ τῆς καρδίας προφέρει τὸ ἀγαθόν, καὶ ὁ πονηρὸς ἐκ τοῦ πονηροῦ προφέρει τὸ πονηρόν5

the good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth the good, and the evil [man] out of the evil [treasure of his heart] brings forth the evil
Acts 2:33
τῇ δεξιᾷ τοῦ θεοῦ ὑψωθείς

having been exalted at the right [hand] of God
Rom 1:17
ὁ δὲ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

but the righteous [person] shall live by faith
2 Cor 6:15
τίς μερὶς πιστῷ μετὰ ἀπίστου;

What portion does a believer have with an unbeliever?
1 Cor 13:10
ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται

whenever the perfect comes, the partial will be done away

Although there can be no objection to the τέλειον referring to the completion of the canon grammatically (for the adj. would naturally be neuter if it referred to a thing, even if the inferred noun were feminine, such as γραφή), it is diffi­cult to see such a notion in this passage, for this view presupposes that (1) both Paul and the Corinthians knew that he was writing scripture, and (2) the apostle foresaw the completion of the NT before the Lord’s return.6 A more likely view is that “the perfect†refers to the coming of Christ7 (note the terminus given in v 12 [τότε] as “face to face,†a personal reference that does not easily comport with the canon view).8

 

[Butch5]

Ok, In Luke 14 Jesus enters the house of one of the chief Pharisees. Once there he begins a series of parables, what is the purpose of these parables? The rich man a Lazarus is one of the parables.

Also, why does Jesus make the comment about adultery, seeming out of the blue just before the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

You win - how's that? I personally believe in heaven, hell, and the lake of fire. I'm not into JW's, Mormonism, Universalism, or other religions teaching otherwise, and I'm not saying you are. If what I have shared is not sufficient I have no desire to go further.

Thanks and have a good day Butch.

Hi Eugene,

I too believe in heaven, hell, and the Lake of Fire. The point I'm trying to make is that in all of these parables Jesus has a central theme. They are all speaking to the Pharisees and their rejection of Christ. Lazarus and the rich man is no different. I submit that Jesus is "not" teaching about the afterlife and contradicting everything the OT says of the subject but rather is using the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to rebuke the Pharisees.

Well since there are no longer any Jewish Pharisee's performing the priesthood in thee temple I guess we can now toss away all the parables huh?

lol

s

What you do with them is up to you. If you want to believe that Jesus contradicted the OT that is your prerogative.

 

[smaller]

What you do with them is up to you.

With whom? Non-existing Pharisees?

If the parables were only to Pharisees my observation is NONE of us as Christians are or can be Pharisees as a fact, therefore reason dictates we can then toss away every parable as inapplicable.

If you want to believe that Jesus contradicted the OT that is your prerogative.

Who in the world said anything like that? Are we going to engage in an imaginary conversation?

?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch

I believe the dilemma is growing since the Nations your referring to will not be around. They will be destroyed prior to the New Heavens and Earth; in the futuristic Paradise you believe will exist.

Revelation 20:7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

8 and will go outto deceive THE NATIONS in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — togather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, thecity he loves. BUT FIRE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURED [the nations] THEM.

If you haves omething more specific concerning your statement please post it. It would not do you justice, or fair to the reader, if we just take you at your word. Please provide scripture on your comment, or try to clear up what you mean.

Are we not speaking about after the corpses come to life in the resurrection?

Hi before time,

The passage you quoted from Isaiah describes the coming of Christ's kingdom, the passage you quoted here describes the end of Christ's kingdom. When Christ comes He will resurrect the believers, not the unbelievers. This is the first resurrection.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is the passage right before what you posted. Notice John speaks of the first resurrection. He says these will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years and then the nations will be destroyed. So, the nations will be here during the thousand years and at the end of that thousand years Satan will be released to tempt the world one more time and then he will be destroyed.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

This is why I said it doesn't cause me a dilemma. I see no reason why these nations would not procreate even though those who have been resurrected do not.

Hi Butch

Thanks for the clarity of your position Butch. Why do you think the believer would not procreate and the Nation would have the pleasure of having children? What would be the point? It would seem according to God's purpose it would be the other way around.

The married couples Adam and Eve were to fill the earth with righteous offspring according to God’spurpose.

I could understand why Christ did not marry or have children; there was a sacrifice in view. If he returns to rule on earth will he be granted to marry and have some kids. Obviously not according to Matthew 22 Is God worried about over population?

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and THEY WILL BECOME ONE FLESH.

1 Timothy 5:14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

So in this paradise earth there is going to be many single women and men running around without giving birth. The Nations will be able to get married and have the greatest pleasure a human can have by getting married and giving birth. Where did Jesus or the Apostles explain this as you have been doing?

Did someone tell you this or did you figure it out for yourself. Help me out here! Can you connect the dots with verses, I’m curious on your answer to these questions. You had asked me in the beginning to give concrete answers to a heavenly resurrection, it your turn now. Sorry for the dilemma expression it was not called for.

Hi Before Time,

I don't know that Scripture gives us all of those answers. We know from the Scriptures that those who are raised will not marry or be given in marriage. We also know from Isaiah that there will be sinners in the new heaven and new earth. Would you agree that these sinners are not the righteous who have been resurrected, that are ruling with Christ.

I can't argue that the Scriptures states this but here is something to consider. If hose who are resurrected with incorruptible bodies procreate and give birth, the offspring would also have incorruptible bodies, correct? These offspring would also have a free will and need to believe in Christ as anyone else would. If they chose sin and rejected Christ, they would be sinners in incorruptible bodies. They would live forever in sin. This is the very reason that God expelled Adam from the Garden of Eden.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
(Gen 3:22-23 KJV)

Adam and were separated from the Tree of Life so that they would not live forever in sin. It seems to me that this would be a very possible occurrence if the resurrected procreated.

The nations on the other hand have not been resurrected, they will be of the same flesh that you and I are of. This flesh is corruptible and dying. Once the thousand years are over and eternity begins there will be no sin or evil and no death. Since people will no longer die there will be no need to further procreate.

I hope that answered your questions, if not please elaborate on what I missed.

 

[John 8:32]

every believer that has ever lived and died is in Heaven. When Jesus ascended, He gathered the Saints from paradise and took them to heaven.

Sorry, just catching up but I think your premise is mistaken here...

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Or else David was not a believer and I rather doubt that...

Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

 

[Butch5]

What you do with them is up to you.

With whom? Non-existing Pharisees?

If the parables were only to Pharisees my observation is NONE of us as Christians are or can be Pharisees as a fact, therefore reason dictates we can then toss away every parable as inapplicable.

As I said, that is your prerogative if you choose to do so. Would you throw out your American history books because they speak of Americans that lived 200 years ago?

Who in the world said anything like that? Are we going to engage in an imaginary conversation?

Are you not arguing along with the others that Luke 16 is teaching of a conscious existence outside of the body after death? If so this idea contradicts what the OT says on the subject.

 

[smaller]

As I said, that is your prerogative if you choose to do so. Would you throw out your American history books because they speak of Americans that lived 200 years ago?

If the books were only written to American Indians for American Indians I would certainly have no use for them would I?

And if the parables were only deployed to berate and deride Jewish Pharisees AS YOU CLAIM then neither one of us are, so let's chuck them!

Is the logic of my observation evading you?

Are you not arguing along with the others that Luke 16 is teaching of a conscious existence outside of the body after death?

Uh, yeah, that is kinda what heaven is about. Are you of a different opinion?

If so this idea contradicts what the OT says on the subject.

Even 'soul sleep' adherents have an awakening at some point so not sure where you think you are going with this.

s

 

[John 8:32]

The angels are in Heaven not the resurrected.

No hope for me? How did Jesus' angel get to heaven? Were Elias and Moses that appeared on the mount with Jesus counted as the resurrected? Is there the possibility them of Matthew 27:52 had to die again or were resurrected? Thanks.

Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Let's read on...

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

If this was Elijah, why didn't Elijah do the work of Elijah?

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Why did John the Baptist come and do the work of Elijah at the first coming? Why wasn't it Elijah himself?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

They are still dead and buried just like David...

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

David, the man after God's own heart, is currently dead, buried and awaiting a resurrection at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Elijah, Moses, David, Abraham and the rest of the saints will rise in a resurrection from the dead at the return of Christ.

 

[Butch5]

As I said, that is your prerogative if you choose to do so. Would you throw out your American history books because they speak of Americans that lived 200 years ago?

If the books were only written to American Indians for American Indians I would certainly have no use for them would I?

And if the parables were only berate and deride Jewish Pharisees AS YOU CLAIM then neither one of us are, so let's chuck them!

Is the logic of my observation evading you?

Well, if you want to understand history and how the Christian faith came about then throwing them out is counterproductive.

Are you not arguing along with the others that Luke 16 is teaching of a conscious existence outside of the body after death?

Uh, yeah, that is kinda what heaven is about. Are you of a different opinion?


Yes, I am. That is the whole point of this thread. The Scriptures don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body, nor do they teach that people go to heaven when they die.

Even 'soul sleep' adherents have an awakening at some point so not sure where you think you are going with this.

s

I going where the Scriptures go. When a man dies, he is dead until the resurrection. There is no disembodied consciousness of a "soul" that lives on after the body dies.

 

[smaller]

Yes, I am. That is the whole point of this thread. The Scriptures don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body, nor do they teach that people go to heaven when they die.

he is dead until the resurrection

You appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The first quote is no longer true at the point of the second quote.

s

 

[Elijah674]

Yes, I am. That is the whole point of this thread. The Scriptures don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body, nor do they teach that people go to heaven when they die.

he is dead until the resurrection

You appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The first quote is no longer true at the point of the second quote.

s

Where is there a contradiction?

You are the one that is believing satan before God!
(Gen. 3:4)

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

Yes, I am. That is the whole point of this thread. The Scriptures don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body, nor do they teach that people go to heaven when they die.

he is dead until the resurrection

You appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The first quote is no longer true at the point of the second quote.

s

Where is there a contradiction?

You are the one that is believing satan before God!
(Gen. 3:4)

--Elijah

Is your name Butch and do you adhere to the 'soul sleep' guesswork?

And I'd thank you to refrain from the unnecessary personal comment "You are the one that is believing satan"

s