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Jay T

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Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".


There are some points to consider from these verses:

#1.) If Christ never knew these people....who performed miracles (verse 22).....then who, performed those miracles ?

The answer, is found in Revelation 13:14, and in Rev. 16:13,14.


#2.) Never let it be said, that these people did not believe in God !
Only people who believed in God would call Him Lord, Lord....and spend their time (money ?) on doing wonderful works, in the name of the Lord.
 
and in thy name have cast out devils?

Matt. 12:26-27, "26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges."
 
Free said:
and in thy name have cast out devils?

Matt. 12:26-27, "26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges."
True enough.....But what if Satan 'only' pretends to cast out devils ?

You must remember that God made Him, the most intelligent being, of all created beings.
 
Judas Iscariot was an Apostle of Christ. He performed miracles in Jesus' name!
 
evanman said:
Judas Iscariot was an Apostle of Christ. He performed miracles in Jesus' name!
You brought up a very good point !

It is also interesting that in the Bible, Judas was called the 'son of perdition' (John 17:12), which is also used to describe the Anti-Christ in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
 
Very true, demons cannot (unable) be cast out by the prince of the demons. But they can (=have the ability to) pretend, look around you, look & see how they pretend to be good religions, very attractive.
 
Jay T said:
#1.) If Christ never knew these people....who performed miracles (verse 22).....then who, performed those miracles ?

The answer, is found in Revelation 13:14, and in Rev. 16:13,14.

Rev 13:14~
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

Rev. 16:13,14~
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
NKJV

I agree. Reading those last 2 verses really put a scary image in your mind. I think that Jesus was also including the rest of the false prophets throughout time as well, not just the end times ones.

On a side note: Your topic name is left wanting. Do you mean people saved then lost, or those that just thought they were saved & found out they really were always lost? Just for clarification.
 
Lip service

Lip Service.........

  • Jeremiah 12:2
    2 You [Lord] have planted them, they have also taken root;
    They grow, they have even produced fruit.
    You are near to their lips
    But far from their mind.


    Matt 15:8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
    BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
    9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
    TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

    NASU w/emphasis added
....Restin
 
"lost Christians"

I hope this doesn't seem a stupid questions, but I am not understanding what the question or statement means. Can someone help me by explaining a little further? :-?
 
vpecc118 said:
Very true, demons cannot (unable) be cast out by the prince of the demons. But they can (=have the ability to) pretend, look around you, look & see how they pretend to be good religions, very attractive.
Satan has even casued Sunday services to be viewed as honoring God, when in reality, they are in direct disobedience to God's commands.
 
I would say that Satan has caused the Pharisaic legalism to enter back into the Church by making people think that one has to worship on a certain day or it is disobedience. Scripture is clear, and SDAs are wrong.
 
Free said:
I would say that Satan has caused the Pharisaic legalism to enter back into the Church by making people think that one has to worship on a certain day or it is disobedience. Scripture is clear, and SDAs are wrong.

********
Scripture please!
But if you want scripture truth, tell us what caused the COMPLETE FOLD OF CHRIST's [OWN] to become DESOLATE! & be SPEWED OUT!? Matt. 23:38 & Rev. 3:16-17.

And about the actual facts of any one of. "..the seven [Candelsticks which thou sawest] [ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES]." of Rev. 1:20??
Surely in all sincerity we MUST ADMIT that they [ALL] were supplied with the gifts of the Gospel, pluss Christ's provisions of Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 :fadein:

And [knowing that this is the Truth], we also have the Truth as seen in Rev. 2:5 about the conditional nature of the GodHeads Everlasting Covenant. (of Heb. 13:20)

Rev. 2:5 states: "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen and repent, and do the first works; [or else I WILL REMOVE THY CANDELSTICK OUT OF HIS PLACE, EXCEPT THOU REPENT."

These verses Free, are NO hokum as we understand upon reading 2 Cor. 4:2! And your 7th Day Sabbath nose thumbing bottom line remark? See Eze. 8:16-17 'worshipped the sun ... and, lo, they put thr BRANCH TO THEIR NOSE.'

Repent from what Free? Where NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANGRESSION'! Rom. 4:15
And... "Whosoever committeth sin also trangresseth also the law: for sin is the trangression of the law." 1 John 3:4

So my true friend, explain to me how come these complete true virgin 'folds' as a WHOLE were needing to be removed? And while you are at it, see if you can relate the truth of how the Rev. 3:9 verse became the synagoge of satan?

---Elijah
 
Jay T said:
vpecc118 said:
Very true, demons cannot (unable) be cast out by the prince of the demons. But they can (=have the ability to) pretend, look around you, look & see how they pretend to be good religions, very attractive.
Satan has even casued Sunday services to be viewed as honoring God, when in reality, they are in direct disobedience to God's commands.

...um, that's not really what I meant.
 
Free said:
I would say that Satan has caused the Pharisaic legalism to enter back into the Church by making people think that one has to worship on a certain day or it is disobedience. Scripture is clear, and SDAs are wrong.
Actually it is the reverse. Satan downplays the obedience to God.

It is the sophistry of Satan that the death of Christ brought in grace to take the place of the law. The death of Jesus did not change or annul or lessen in the slightest degree the law of Ten Commandments. That precious grace offered to men through a Saviour's blood establishes the law of God. Since the fall of man, God's moral government and His grace are inseparable. They go hand in hand through all dispensations. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other" (Psalm 85:10).

Jesus, our Substitute, consented to bear for man the penalty of the law transgressed. He clothed His divinity with humanity and thus became the Son of man, a Saviour and Redeemer. The very fact of the death of God's dear Son to redeem man shows the immutability of the divine law. How easily, from the transgressor's standpoint, could God have abolished His law, thus providing a way whereby men could be saved and Christ remain in heaven! The doctrine which teaches freedom, through grace, to break the law is a fatal delusion. Every transgressor of God's law is a sinner, and none can be sanctified while living in known sin.

The condescension and agony of God's dear Son were not endured to purchase for man liberty to transgress the Father's law and yet sit down with Christ in His throne. It was that through His merits and the exercise of repentance and faith the most guilty sinner might receive pardon and obtain strength to live a life of obedience. The sinner is not saved in his sins, but from his sins.

What Sin Is

The soul must first be convicted of sin before the sinner will feel a desire to come to Christ. "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). "I had not known sin, but by the law" (Romans 7:7). When the commandment came home to Saul's conscience, sin revived, and he died. He saw himself condemned by the law of God.

The sinner cannot be convinced of his guilt unless he understands what constitutes sin. It is impossible for an individual to experience Bible sanctification while he holds that if he believes in Christ it is immaterial whether he obeys God's law or disobeys it.

Those who profess to keep the law of God and yet at heart are indulging in sin are condemned by the True Witness. They claim to be rich in a knowledge of the truth; but they are not in harmony with its sacred principles. The truth does not sanctify their lives. God's Word declares that the professed commandment-keeper whose life contradicts his faith is blind, wretched, poor, and naked.

God's law is the mirror presenting a complete reflection of the man as he is, and holding up before him the correct likeness. Some will turn away and forget this picture, while others will employ abusive epithets against the law, as though this would cure their defects of character. Still others who are condemned by the law will repent of their transgressions and, through faith in Christ's merits, will perfect Christian character.


Condemned by the Light They Reject

The whole world is guilty in God's sight of transgressing His law. Because the great majority will continue to transgress, and thus remain at enmity with God, is no reason why none should confess themselves guilty and become obedient. To a superficial observer, persons who are naturally amiable, who are educated and refined, may appear perfect in life. "Man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart" (1 Samuel 16:7). Unless the life-giving truths of God's Word, when presented to the conscience, are understandingly received and then faithfully carried out in the life, no man can see the kingdom of heaven. To some, these truths have a charm because of their novelty but are not accepted as the Word of God. Those who do not receive the light when it is brought before them will be condemned by it.

In every congregation in the land there are souls unsatisfied, hungering and thirsting for salvation. By day and by night the burden of their hearts is, What shall I do to be saved? They listen eagerly to popular discourses, hoping to learn how they may be justified before God. But too often they hear only a pleasing speech, an eloquent declamation. There are sad and disappointed hearts in every religious gathering. The minister tells his hearers that they cannot keep the law of God. "It is not binding upon man in our day," he says. "You must believe in Christ; He will save you; only believe." Thus he teaches them to make feeling their criterion and gives them no intelligent faith. That minister may profess to be very sincere, but he is seeking to quiet the troubled conscience with a false hope.
 
Free said:
Actually it is the reverse. Satan downplays the obedience to God.

Read the gospels lately?
Actually, I use more Bible texts from the Gospels than most anything else.

I believe we should observe the life of Jesus Christ more, than anything else...as he is our example (1 Peter 2:21,22).

For instance:
#1.) Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".

This Bible verse, tells me that the 4th commandment (7th day Sabbath) is still with us, as are the rest of the 9 commandments given in Exodus 20:3-17.


#2.) Matthew 19:16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".

This Bible verse is in complete harmony with......
Revelation 22:14 "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".


#3.) "IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).
And since we know that all 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) were written out by Christ Himself....we know that Jesus included the 7th day Sabbath in that statement of.....
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments".



I believe that the Christian world would be much better off, if they studied the Gospels, much more than they do !
 
For instance:
#1.) Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".

I believe that Christ has fulfilled all things.
 
Love fulfills the Law

Love fulfills the Law
  • Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
    37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD
    WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND
    WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
    38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
    39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
    40 " On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

    Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
    10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement,
    "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

    NASU w/emphasis supplied
Interesting how many Bible schollars want to ADD Moses to Jesus!
Looks like we have a new/old class of Pharisees and Sadducees
......Restin
 
Don't you just LOVE the LAW?

Well first of all, I am proud to say that I worship on Sunday. I also worship on Saturday, Friday, Thursday, Wednesday, Tuesday, and Monday. I find it very difficult to swallow the fact that God forbid worship of Him on a certain day of the week. I agree with a lot of what is being said. It looks like Resin and Jay T both just agreed by saying that Jesus/love is the fulfillment of the law. Yet they get totally different applications. It is true that all of the laws are contained within those greatest two. Love God and love your neighbor. The thing is though, that’s a pretty complicated statement. The bible says that if you love God, you will obey his commands. He didn't specify which commands, He just said His commands. There is no example that I can think of in which Jesus breaks biblical law, only rabbinical. But the law meant something other than what the Jewish leaders of his day thought. When Jesus came, the law didn't suddenly become fulfilled by love, it always had been. Jesus saved those who sought him both before and after his life. The law never saved anyone. Jesus saves. So why obey the law? Because we love God, and because He asked us to. The law is an example of how to love God. It is not the ultimate authority though. That’s why we have the Holy Spirit. For example, in 1 Samuel David takes the forbidden bread and God doesn’t seem to have a problem with it. God did not give us the law to hurt us; He also didn’t give us the law for fun. Jesus bore the burden for every law we ever brake, every sin we ever make. So now we call upon Him and are saved. Now, we are to love Him which means we obey His commands, just like God’s people of the Old Testament. Just be very, very careful about attacking your family in Christ, God’s bride. If we isolate our family in Christ because of theological differences, it can be taken as an attempt to destroy the church and immobilize God’s body, which is something nobody wants to be held responsible for. Anyway, this is a very difficult issue to address, and I would love to learn more about it.
 
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