I
Imagican
Guest
Is Christmas Biblically based or created by the Catholics to mimic pagan celebrations?
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K
Klee shay
Guest
There wasn't an "I don't know" vote so I went with no instead.
I don't know if 25th of December is the exact date of Christ's birth but I do believe it signifies a global day to celebrate the birth of Christ today. Whether Catholicism started it or not, I don't know either.
A day is all that is required as I'm not sure if a date was ever recorded for the birth of Christ. I know many claim they know the exact date but the evidence isn't precise enough for me. So I'm happy with the 25th of December.
Does it matter what date we celebrate the birth of Christ, so long as it signifies the birth of mankind's salvation - a light into the world.
I don't know if 25th of December is the exact date of Christ's birth but I do believe it signifies a global day to celebrate the birth of Christ today. Whether Catholicism started it or not, I don't know either.
A day is all that is required as I'm not sure if a date was ever recorded for the birth of Christ. I know many claim they know the exact date but the evidence isn't precise enough for me. So I'm happy with the 25th of December.
Does it matter what date we celebrate the birth of Christ, so long as it signifies the birth of mankind's salvation - a light into the world.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Celebrating the birth of Christ the incarnate God is Catholic baggage. Im, you have alot of baggage and it's not Catholic. This poll is stupid so I didn't vote.
I
Imagican
Guest
Stupid in what way?
I was simply curious as to whether or not there would be any that beileve this date was the 'actual' date of the birth of Christ?
I also wanted to see how many people would respond that 'it doesn't matter'. This seems to be the prevailing feeling now days concerning religion and just wanted to prove it to myself.
Thanks for participating, even though you didn't vote Thess.
I was simply curious as to whether or not there would be any that beileve this date was the 'actual' date of the birth of Christ?
I also wanted to see how many people would respond that 'it doesn't matter'. This seems to be the prevailing feeling now days concerning religion and just wanted to prove it to myself.
Thanks for participating, even though you didn't vote Thess.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Imagican said:
Christmass is not about the date.
I
Imagican
Guest
No doubt.
I just wonder how many folks out there are aware of the actual 'purpose' behind the creation of 'Christmas'.
I just wonder how many folks out there are aware of the actual 'purpose' behind the creation of 'Christmas'.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Imagican said:
perhaps you could enlighten us on when Christmass was "invented" by the Catholics?
I
Imagican
Guest
Certainly, but you're not going to like it. We're going to have to deal with Mithra again
Sometime around the middle of the fourth century AD. Previous to that, the Romans celebrated a festival called Saturnalia dedicated to the god Saturn. Also, this same date was the celebrated birth of Mithra.
When Christianity was introduced and began to be accepted by the masses, The church made an effort to abolish the pagan and substitute their version of the holy. They simply chose to exchange this date to celebrate the birth of Christ. The festivities and tradition continued but under a new name. The church knew that many would rebel against this 'new' religion if it offered the immediate destruction of everything that the people were use to, so they slowly but surely began to replace pagan festivals with 'Christian' names. Of course Christ and God had absolutely NOTHING to do with these changes.
Not much different than many of the Catholic traditions. Carry overs from previous pagan ritual and ceremony. The indication is that the RC didn't start over with Christ as their Savior, the Son of God, they simply added Christ to much of their previous pagan ritual. Christmas is but another example of this evolving 'new' religion.
And this was nothing new to those in Rome. They had incorporated many many religions into their society. As they gained more and more territory in the known world, much of the religion of those that they conquered was brought back to the capitol and integrated into their worship. Christ was just another one of these. And as most of the others, they didn't change their religion completely, they just added to what they already had. I guess this was easier than 'starting over'.
Sometime around the middle of the fourth century AD. Previous to that, the Romans celebrated a festival called Saturnalia dedicated to the god Saturn. Also, this same date was the celebrated birth of Mithra.
When Christianity was introduced and began to be accepted by the masses, The church made an effort to abolish the pagan and substitute their version of the holy. They simply chose to exchange this date to celebrate the birth of Christ. The festivities and tradition continued but under a new name. The church knew that many would rebel against this 'new' religion if it offered the immediate destruction of everything that the people were use to, so they slowly but surely began to replace pagan festivals with 'Christian' names. Of course Christ and God had absolutely NOTHING to do with these changes.
Not much different than many of the Catholic traditions. Carry overs from previous pagan ritual and ceremony. The indication is that the RC didn't start over with Christ as their Savior, the Son of God, they simply added Christ to much of their previous pagan ritual. Christmas is but another example of this evolving 'new' religion.
And this was nothing new to those in Rome. They had incorporated many many religions into their society. As they gained more and more territory in the known world, much of the religion of those that they conquered was brought back to the capitol and integrated into their worship. Christ was just another one of these. And as most of the others, they didn't change their religion completely, they just added to what they already had. I guess this was easier than 'starting over'.
Whether or not Christ's birth was the 25th of December is irrelevant. The fact is that that was the day chosen to remember it. That Dec. 25th was a pagan day of celebration is of importance, but not for the erroneous reasons Imagican gives. It is about "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:16). There is nothing wrong with making holy what is not, turning a pagan celebration into a celebration of the birth of our Lord and God. Any link between Mithraism and Christianity is pure speculation.
The interesting thing is that it is increasingly becoming unredeemed, being turned once again into a pagan celebration of materialism and consumerism.
I strongly suggest, Imagican, that you quit trying to prove orthodox Christian belief and practice wrong, especially by your continual appeal to non-Christian sources. Of course these sources are going to claim such-and-such about Christianity. You would do well to search inside and find out why you dislike Christ's Church so strongly. Stick to Scripture.
The interesting thing is that it is increasingly becoming unredeemed, being turned once again into a pagan celebration of materialism and consumerism.
I strongly suggest, Imagican, that you quit trying to prove orthodox Christian belief and practice wrong, especially by your continual appeal to non-Christian sources. Of course these sources are going to claim such-and-such about Christianity. You would do well to search inside and find out why you dislike Christ's Church so strongly. Stick to Scripture.
I
Imagican
Guest
Free,
I wasn't really trying to 'prove' anything about the OCC. I was simply pointing out that the tradition of Christmas has nothing to do with Christs' birth date. You asked me to explain and I did the best that I could with the history and information available. I'm sorry that I didn't obtain all of it from a Catholic website, but if I had, then there would have been much less 'truth' in what I offered.
I didn't try and link Mithraism with Christianity. I was offering that the birth of Mithra was celebrated on or about the 25th of December, (winter solstice), along with the celebration of the God Saturn in the festival of Saturnalia.
And yes, most of what is known of Mithraism is more theory than absolute knowledge. But, there is still quite a bit of information concerning this religion that IS KNOWN. Where it came from, who it's followers were, and even much of it's ritual. It was a secretive organized religion that insisted upon it's intimate ritual being 'secretive', but even so, there is still quite a bit known about it. I haven't even started to offer what I could concerning historians understanding of the similarities of Mithraism to Christianity. Even the Catholic Church agrees that there could have been much taken from Christianity and introduced into Mithraism. The problem with this view is that Mithraism was/is much older than Christianity, so the opposite is much more likely.
And Free, I try 'not' to get my information from 'any' religious sources. I am much more interested in the history of religion than in religion itself. And you have indicated that what I offered wasn't an accurate but brief description of the 'truth' of Christmas, (Christ's Mass), as created by the Catholic Church. I could have gone in to much more detail but figured that this wasn't needed in order to offer what you asked. My dates were as accurate as possible, and the previous festivals were 'fact'. Not created by me any more than the fact that the Catholic Church 'created' Christmas to take their place.
I'm quite sure that you were already aware of at least 'most' of the details that I offered. If not, there is much of what I offered available on Catholic sponsored websites. No, not exactly what I offered, but 'real' close. Of course no single source of information is going to be 'complete'. And of course a website or information source sponsored by the Catholic Church isn't going to offer much that reflects a negative view of their religion. Understandable, no doubt.
I wasn't really trying to 'prove' anything about the OCC. I was simply pointing out that the tradition of Christmas has nothing to do with Christs' birth date. You asked me to explain and I did the best that I could with the history and information available. I'm sorry that I didn't obtain all of it from a Catholic website, but if I had, then there would have been much less 'truth' in what I offered.
I didn't try and link Mithraism with Christianity. I was offering that the birth of Mithra was celebrated on or about the 25th of December, (winter solstice), along with the celebration of the God Saturn in the festival of Saturnalia.
And yes, most of what is known of Mithraism is more theory than absolute knowledge. But, there is still quite a bit of information concerning this religion that IS KNOWN. Where it came from, who it's followers were, and even much of it's ritual. It was a secretive organized religion that insisted upon it's intimate ritual being 'secretive', but even so, there is still quite a bit known about it. I haven't even started to offer what I could concerning historians understanding of the similarities of Mithraism to Christianity. Even the Catholic Church agrees that there could have been much taken from Christianity and introduced into Mithraism. The problem with this view is that Mithraism was/is much older than Christianity, so the opposite is much more likely.
And Free, I try 'not' to get my information from 'any' religious sources. I am much more interested in the history of religion than in religion itself. And you have indicated that what I offered wasn't an accurate but brief description of the 'truth' of Christmas, (Christ's Mass), as created by the Catholic Church. I could have gone in to much more detail but figured that this wasn't needed in order to offer what you asked. My dates were as accurate as possible, and the previous festivals were 'fact'. Not created by me any more than the fact that the Catholic Church 'created' Christmas to take their place.
I'm quite sure that you were already aware of at least 'most' of the details that I offered. If not, there is much of what I offered available on Catholic sponsored websites. No, not exactly what I offered, but 'real' close. Of course no single source of information is going to be 'complete'. And of course a website or information source sponsored by the Catholic Church isn't going to offer much that reflects a negative view of their religion. Understandable, no doubt.
W
Windozer
Guest
Teach the Children
==================
This is how it happened...I'd just finished the household chores
for the night and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a
noise in the front of the house. I opened the door to the front
room and to my surprise, Santa himself stepped out from behind
the Christmas tree.
He placed his finger over his mouth so I would not cry out.
"What are you doing?" I started to ask. The words choked up in
my throat, and I saw he had tears in his eyes. His usual jolly
manner was gone. Gone was the eager, boisterous soul we all
know.
He then answered me with a simple statement.
"TEACH THE CHILDREN!"
I was puzzled; what did he mean? He anticipated my question,
and with one quick movement brought forth a miniature toy bag
from behind the tree. As I stood bewildered, Santa said,
"Teach the children! Teach them the old meaning of Christmas.
The meaning that now-a-days Christmas has forgotten."
Santa then reached into his bag and pulled out a FIR TREE and
placed it before the mantle. "Teach the children that the pure
green color of the stately fir tree remains green all year
round, depicting the everlasting hope of mankind, all the
needles point heavenward, making it a symbol of man's thoughts
turning toward heaven."
He again reached into his bag and pulled out a brilliant STAR.
"Teach the children that the star was the heavenly sign of
promises long ago. God promised a Savior for the world, and the
star was the sign of fulfillment of His promise."
He then reached into his bag and pulled out a CANDLE. "Teach
the children that the candle symbolizes that Christ is the light
of the world, and when we see this great light, we are reminded
of He who displaces the darkness."
Once again he reached into his bag and removed a WREATH and
placed it on the tree. "Teach the children that the wreath
symbolizes the real nature of love. Real love never ceases.
Love is one continuous round of affection."
He then pulled from his bag an ornament of himself. "Teach the
children that I, Santa Clause symbolize the generosity and good
will we feel during the month of December."
He then brought out a HOLLY LEAF. "Teach the children that the
holly plant represents immortality. It represents the crown of
thorns worn by our Savior. The red holly represents the blood
shed by Him."
Next he pulled from his bag a GIFT and said, "Teach the children
that God so loved the world that HE gave HIS begotten SON...
Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift.
"Teach the children that the wise men bowed before the Holy BABE
and presented HIM with gold, frankincense and myrrh. We should
always give gifts in the same spirit of the wise men."
Santa then reached in his bag and pulled out a CANDY CANE and
hung it on the tree. "Teach the children that the candy cane
represents the shepherds' crook. The crook on the staff helps
to bring back strayed sheep to the flock. The candy cane is the
symbol that we are our brother's keeper."
He reached in again and pulled out an ANGEL. "Teach the
children that it was the angels that heralded in the glorious
news of the Savior's birth. The angels sang 'Glory to God in
the highest, on earth peace and good will toward men."
Suddenly I heard a soft twinkling sound and from his bag he
pulled out a BELL. "Teach the children that as the lost sheep
are found by the sound of the bell, it should ring mankind to
the fold. The bell symbolizes guidance and return."
Santa looked back and was pleased. He looked back at me and I
saw that the twinkle was back in his eyes. He said, "Remember,
teach the children the true meaning of Christmas and do not put
me in the center, for I am but a humble servant of the One who
is, and I bow down to worship HIM, our LORD, our GOD."
~Author Unknown~
==================
This is how it happened...I'd just finished the household chores
for the night and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a
noise in the front of the house. I opened the door to the front
room and to my surprise, Santa himself stepped out from behind
the Christmas tree.
He placed his finger over his mouth so I would not cry out.
"What are you doing?" I started to ask. The words choked up in
my throat, and I saw he had tears in his eyes. His usual jolly
manner was gone. Gone was the eager, boisterous soul we all
know.
He then answered me with a simple statement.
"TEACH THE CHILDREN!"
I was puzzled; what did he mean? He anticipated my question,
and with one quick movement brought forth a miniature toy bag
from behind the tree. As I stood bewildered, Santa said,
"Teach the children! Teach them the old meaning of Christmas.
The meaning that now-a-days Christmas has forgotten."
Santa then reached into his bag and pulled out a FIR TREE and
placed it before the mantle. "Teach the children that the pure
green color of the stately fir tree remains green all year
round, depicting the everlasting hope of mankind, all the
needles point heavenward, making it a symbol of man's thoughts
turning toward heaven."
He again reached into his bag and pulled out a brilliant STAR.
"Teach the children that the star was the heavenly sign of
promises long ago. God promised a Savior for the world, and the
star was the sign of fulfillment of His promise."
He then reached into his bag and pulled out a CANDLE. "Teach
the children that the candle symbolizes that Christ is the light
of the world, and when we see this great light, we are reminded
of He who displaces the darkness."
Once again he reached into his bag and removed a WREATH and
placed it on the tree. "Teach the children that the wreath
symbolizes the real nature of love. Real love never ceases.
Love is one continuous round of affection."
He then pulled from his bag an ornament of himself. "Teach the
children that I, Santa Clause symbolize the generosity and good
will we feel during the month of December."
He then brought out a HOLLY LEAF. "Teach the children that the
holly plant represents immortality. It represents the crown of
thorns worn by our Savior. The red holly represents the blood
shed by Him."
Next he pulled from his bag a GIFT and said, "Teach the children
that God so loved the world that HE gave HIS begotten SON...
Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift.
"Teach the children that the wise men bowed before the Holy BABE
and presented HIM with gold, frankincense and myrrh. We should
always give gifts in the same spirit of the wise men."
Santa then reached in his bag and pulled out a CANDY CANE and
hung it on the tree. "Teach the children that the candy cane
represents the shepherds' crook. The crook on the staff helps
to bring back strayed sheep to the flock. The candy cane is the
symbol that we are our brother's keeper."
He reached in again and pulled out an ANGEL. "Teach the
children that it was the angels that heralded in the glorious
news of the Savior's birth. The angels sang 'Glory to God in
the highest, on earth peace and good will toward men."
Suddenly I heard a soft twinkling sound and from his bag he
pulled out a BELL. "Teach the children that as the lost sheep
are found by the sound of the bell, it should ring mankind to
the fold. The bell symbolizes guidance and return."
Santa looked back and was pleased. He looked back at me and I
saw that the twinkle was back in his eyes. He said, "Remember,
teach the children the true meaning of Christmas and do not put
me in the center, for I am but a humble servant of the One who
is, and I bow down to worship HIM, our LORD, our GOD."
~Author Unknown~
F
farley
Guest
All...
I'm just catching the tailend of this discussion, so if the passages below have already been referenced, I apologize.
Galatians 4 KJV
(7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(8) Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
(9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
(10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
(11) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
I have not a clue how Christmas, as we see it celebrated today, began, but, in my view, the above passage seems to frown on (condemn) such activities.
BTW...I celebrate Christ's existence every Lord's Day by partaking communion with Him!
Also, an angel came to Mary in the sixth month of the year bearing the message to her that she had been chosen to bear God's Son. This pretty much excludes December, in my mind.
Luke 1 KJV
(26) And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
(27) To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
(28) And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
In Christ,
farley
I'm just catching the tailend of this discussion, so if the passages below have already been referenced, I apologize.
Galatians 4 KJV
(7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(8) Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
(9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
(10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
(11) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
I have not a clue how Christmas, as we see it celebrated today, began, but, in my view, the above passage seems to frown on (condemn) such activities.
BTW...I celebrate Christ's existence every Lord's Day by partaking communion with Him!
Also, an angel came to Mary in the sixth month of the year bearing the message to her that she had been chosen to bear God's Son. This pretty much excludes December, in my mind.
Luke 1 KJV
(26) And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
(27) To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
(28) And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
In Christ,
farley
S
Solo
Guest
farley said:
Do you have a clue as to how others celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ on this day? Perhaps it is better trust God and not lean unto our own understanding, and to acknowledge God in all things so that he can direct our path (Proverbs 3).
"old" meaning of christmas??
that is a laugh. the great author of a true faith and true and good way, whose Name is great among the gentiles (not "unknown") says:
Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith יהוה, Learn not the way of the heathen,
Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain...
Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore יהוה said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
that is a laugh. the great author of a true faith and true and good way, whose Name is great among the gentiles (not "unknown") says:
Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith יהוה, Learn not the way of the heathen,
Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain...
Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore יהוה said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
S
Solo
Guest
You can sell your wares to the ignorant, but the wise that have the understanding of God in their souls are not buying.wavy said: