[_ Old Earth _] Cloning and Sin...

[Blazin Bones]

Those who claim Christ as thier redeemer will better understand the premise of this thread. All are welcome to discuss the idea put forthm but it will be difficult to truly appreciate this reasoning without knowing God's word and what it teaches.

Premise: Cloning is a modern example of God giving man up to their sinful lusts and desires.

Supporting Ideas:

1. Romans 1:24 teaches that God will give up those who continually chase after a sinful lust or passion to that sin.

2. Cloning is man's attempt to create life, a role that was God's alone until men beleived their science and reasoning was greater than the power of the Lord.

3. Claiming to have greater power than God is putting yourself, a man, before God.

4. God allows for cloning because he is allowing these sinful, humanistic men, to pick which life they desire. God gives these scientists thier air to breath, their materials to work with, and even the knowledge of how to manipulate the basic things of life. In order to make anything synthetic, it requires that a genuine tool made by the things God created first, be used.

Concluding thought: Cloning is just another way man will justify placing himself over God.

 

[freeway]

Cloning to me is wrong, "my belief". Yes God is the Creator of all thing heaven and earth. Cloning is not producing "LIFE" life is already there. Man is simply using unnatural means to get "his" result. Yes he is trying as always to get rid of God, out do God. Does that person, male or female that is a result of cloning have a soul, spirit that at the end of their life will stand before Jesus and be judged on the basis of what he or she has done on this earth.. yes I do believe so... and that means that person has sinned. Also the ones that have cloned this person are too guilty of sin. MY VIEW...

 

[Brokendoll]

Right. So, I have a couple of questions for ya'll.

1. Are you opposed to cloning in general or is it just the cloning of humans you are against? Cause, I assume you know that a lot of the food we eat, vegetables and the like, are the result of cloning or derived processes...

2. How do you feel about identical twins? Since they are for all practical purposes clones of each other, how does the whole soul business work there? Do they share on between them, or...?

3. How do you feel about the cloning that goes on in our bodies all the time? I mean, that is how the body grows or heals wounds, through cloning and duplicating cells.

4. In fact, if you want to be strickt about it, the cloning business is pretty much a standard tool for all life on the planet on some level or another. So, is cloning only bad if it's done intentionally by humans?

 

[freeway]

Cloning Humans, the rest no.

 

[jasoncran]

twins even identical arent the exact same, the fingerprints are different, i have mixed feelings on cloning. Men will use any tool that is made for evil also.

There is a group that wants to clone us all and use them as slaves, so i'm told.

 

[Brokendoll]

twins even identical arent the exact same, the fingerprints are different, i have mixed feelings on cloning. Men will use any tool that is made for evil also.

There is a group that wants to clone us all and use them as slaves, so i'm told.

And clones (even identical ;) ), would also have different fingerprints.
Clones and identical twins are genetically the same thing, and they are both, for all practical purposes, genetically equivalent.
So, if clones are "exactly" the same, then identical twins are too.

Notice: Identical twins is the only issue that is interesting in this context. Non-identical twins are no more alike genetically than brothers or sisters born years apart. They don't even have to be of the same gender, whereas identical twins always are.

Also, unless you have something solid to back your conspiracy theories up with, I'll calmly disregard that part.

Cloning Humans, the rest no.

Could you elaborate on your thoughts please. I'm not too clear on what you mean exactly.

 

[jasoncran]

Brokendoll do genes make us then, if that's the case we cant change behaviour, not to deviate into nature vs nurture too much.

I dont have faith in men as all technology has been used for good and or evil and we are better at killing each other then any other thing.

without war we wouldnt have the cure for malaria or the epi pin used for hypovulemic shock.Nor would we know about frostbite and its treatment. Much of medical reasearch comes from the lab but in uses for other than humane purposes. science is a tool and the man that is using is where i question the uses of cloning.

we already devalue life, you maynot consider abortion and or the right to die laws as murder,most christians do. we value life whether born or near death. we dont base it on Peter singer logic(utilariasm).

 

[Brokendoll]

Brokendoll do genes make us then, if that's the case we cant change behaviour, not to deviate into nature vs nurture too much.

No. Our genes + our environment and experiences make us. That may not sound like a lot, but the amount of information connected each and every person, making them who they are, would easily fill the Library of Congress many times over. Even the most motivated nature/nurture supporter agrees that neither of the two work exclusively alone.

I dont have faith in men as all technology has been used for good and or evil and we are better at killing each other then any other thing.

Anything can be used for either good or evil, but one of the foremost tools for evil has throughout history been the overall stupidity of people. Hence, more knowledge is always better than less. At least then we know what we are talking about, and can make informed choices.

Also, I find it somewhat ironic when people come on the internet to tell the world that they are opposed to technological progress. Surely, if that was the case, they should have sent a handwritten letter instead. The thing is that, like cloning, lots of people have these little pet-causes, but once you start digging you usually find that they haven't really done any research into the subject, and they haven't really thought through the consequences should they someday get their way.

without war we wouldnt have the cure for malaria or the epi pin used for hypovulemic shock.Nor would we know about frostbite and its treatment. Much of medical reasearch comes from the lab but in uses for other than humane purposes. science is a tool and the man that is using is where i question the uses of cloning.

Well, as of now, human cloning is forbidden in most countries where such an endeavour could potentially take place. Cloning is not easy and requires both high-tech equipment and serious know-how. Out of 277 tries only one sheep, the famous Dolly, lived to adulthood, and even she was fraught with genetic disorders and shortcomings. In other words, we have still some way from the science-fiction concept of human cloning, and we have already started to form the laws which will govern such a process. But that is all the more reason why we should have an open and informed discussion about it, to make sure that we get it right.

we already devalue life, you maynot consider abortion and or the right to die laws as murder,most christians do. we value life whether born or near death.

In Norway you are allowed to have an abortion up until week 12, which makes sense since it is at that point that the peripheral nervous system develops in the faetus, and up until that stage it is unable to feel pain. I see no huge moral issue with this. As for "the right to die" laws, I feel that if done right (like in the Netherlands) it actually shows a greater respect for life than keeping someone alive against their will, perhaps with excruciating pain.

Also, if the Republican party in the US is any kind of measuring stick, it appears that at birth and at death are the only times one -does- care about life. G.W. certainly had no problems sending thousands of young men to their death based on a lie.

we dont base it on Peter singer logic(utilariasm).

I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who fully supports a utilitarian point of view, if for nothing else, than that they fear they might themselves fall victim to such a system. On the other hand though, one is allowed to think practically about matters, and I see no reason why my perfectly useful organs should go to waste after I am dead, which is why I am an organ donor.

 

[jasoncran]

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2009-1 ... reak-swine
that is the truth as i live in florida and it is true that the state in florida they were planning to do that. I'm not sure if the state has changed its mind or not.

i know one that believes utiliariasm personally. they are out there. a lie that hussien ever had wmd ,lol. Clinton almost had us invade iraq over the refusal to let u.n. inspectors there.

No one held my hand down as said Jason enlist and serve your country.I joined during operation desert storm. If you join the military and not think that you will see combat then you are stupid. Plan for it and hope it never happens. I have fought in war. Iraq was mistake, war while devasting something that has to be fought at times.

 

[jasoncran]

did you say the netherlands? uh no the state of oregon in its in laws made sure that they didnt use that country's laws. Holland has had major problems with that being abused.

my grandfathers both died of alzhemiers, which is cheaper to kill the patient or to treat them, kill them.
I have a coworker who is familar and with your country's healthcare system and from the that expericience is against government healthcare. Her ex-husband who is Norwegian, his grandmother waited two yrs for a pacemaker. even when she got it was the external type, which was later replaced by the newer style.

no thank you

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08062008.html
this is scary as one doc suggests that people who think that they may have alzheimers are told not to see a doc and commit suicide early.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lling.html
the doc who crafted the law is now against it.
i can find more than one site on that but due to lack of time, I will stop here.

http://euthanasia.procon.org/viewanswer ... tionID=151

 

[azlan88]

There was this one guy I met on a political forum who wanted clones to be sold on the meat market. I brough this up before, but it still doesn't cease to amaze me. He gave humanity so little value that it's like somebody gutted his soul out of his body. It's because of people like him that we Christians oppose human cloning.

 

[Brokendoll]

Damn, we're swerving way off topic here, but alright...

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2009-10-18/news/0910170196_1_pandemic-severe-flu-outbreak-swine
that is the truth as i live in florida and it is true that the state in florida they were planning to do that. I'm not sure if the state has changed its mind or not.

And...

my grandfathers both died of alzhemiers, which is cheaper to kill the patient or to treat them, kill them.
I have a coworker who is familar and with your country's healthcare system and from the that expericience is against government healthcare. Her ex-husband who is Norwegian, his grandmother waited two yrs for a pacemaker. even when she got it was the external type, which was later replaced by the newer style.

no thank you

Heh... It's funny how people have a tendency to extrapolate wildly from personal anecdotes.
Look, The U.S. is the only Modern Western country in the WORLD who doesn't offer universal health-care to it's citizens, and yet, your healthcare is also the most expensive in the world.

Even Cuba beats you in several vital areas, such as infant mortality rates, underweight babies, HIV infection, immunisation rates and doctor per population rates, and they do this by spending less than half (as compared to the GDP) of what you guys do.

Norway, on the other hand, has one of the best healthcare systems in the world, although I'll admit we get beat to the punch by France. You guys really should look into that and steal their way of doing stuff.

Oh, and just to pull this one even further, Norway is considered one of the best countries in the world to live in by the UN, and has been for many years. Our healthcare system is a major part of this. ;) I'll be happy to compare with the US any day, system by system, and I think you'll find that just about everything you do, we do better.

No one held my hand down as said Jason enlist and serve your country.I joined during operation desert storm. If you join the military and not think that you will see combat then you are stupid. Plan for it and hope it never happens. I have fought in war. Iraq was mistake, war while devasting something that has to be fought at times.

Sure, and I'm not saying that war sadly sometimes isn't the only option. Heck, Norway has troops in Afghanistan too. Let's just make sure that whenever we put our soldiers in harms way, it's for a good reason, and not just to satisfy someone's greed.

did you say the netherlands? uh no the state of oregon in its in laws made sure that they didnt use that country's laws. Holland has had major problems with that being abused.

There is nothing wrong with the laws themselves, but there has been a few issues with how the laws are being implemented and interpretated.

There was this one guy I met on a political forum who wanted clones to be sold on the meat market. I brough this up before, but it still doesn't cease to amaze me. He gave humanity so little value that it's like somebody gutted his soul out of his body. It's because of people like him that we Christians oppose human cloning.

"There was this one guy I met on a political forum who claimed that everyone who didn't believe exactly the same as him would burn in hell. I brough this up before, but it still doesn't cease to amaze me. He had absolutely no evidence to support his case either, it's like somebody gutted his logic out of his brain. It's because of people like him that we Sceptics oppose religion."

See how it looks when the tables are turned? ;)

Generalized arguments that start with "there was this one guy..." will in the future be ignored as invalid, not to mention utterly silly. Based on that kind of logic, where you take "this one guy" to mean "everyone even remotely like him", I'm pretty sure I would end up having a problem with the whole world in no time.

 

[azlan88]

I didn't say anything about atheism, so why are you bashing Christianity? Also, your argument is poor because you should judge Christianity by the doctrine, not just its people, who are imperfect. However, there are great examples of Christians. You biggots just like to single out the Christians who have rough edges so that you have an "excuse" to hate God.

 

[Brokendoll]

I didn't say anything about atheism, so why are you bashing Christianity? Also, your argument is poor because you should judge Christianity by the doctrine, not just its people, who are imperfect. However, there are great examples of Christians. You biggots just like to single out the Christians who have rough edges so that you have an "excuse" to hate God.

I see that you utterly and completely missed my point, and in addition to that you failed to see the blatant irony in what you just wrote. ;)

 

[freeway]

Ok, what purpose would cloning anyone be, what would be the benefit, just to have someone you can "rob parts" from. Sin is putting yourself before God. Look at all the people in the bible, all the world powers that I'm sure thought they would still be here today. none. As far as cloning food, thats for the better, larger fruit, vegetables, able to fight off pest and disease. If I was a clone I don't think I would like giving up my eyes or anything heart lungs kidneys just so someone else could look younger.

 

[jasoncran]

Do you think that diet might have something to do with life expetency.

The lady i mention has kids by the norwegian and her kids still visit that country, went there last year. She also stays in touch with the family on the other side. Cuba, yeah i wouldnt know about that country now would I, as i'm only less then 600 miles from that country. Uh they cant even build new cars , they still use the 50's tech. I dont think there medicine is really all there.


Funny i see cubans who have left cuba to come here, and they dont want to go back. If life is so good then why come here.

But i will cease that discussion on healthcare.

 

[Brokendoll]

Do you think that diet might have something to do with life expetency.

Yup, it does. But forget those "miracle" diet cures. Here's all you need to know about nutrition; unless you have some kind of deficiency or allergy (in which case you should talk to a doctor anyway), just eat a varied diet of vegetables, fruit, fish, meat, bread and so on. The body will take care of the rest. It knows what it needs.

Cuba, yeah i wouldnt know about that country now would I, as i'm only less then 600 miles from that country. Uh they cant even build new cars , they still use the 50's tech. I dont think there medicine is really all there.

Their lack of material resources are largely due to the US enforced trade-block. And based on what resources they have avaliable, they have done a lot more than the US have, particularily with regards to health-care.

Funny i see cubans who have left cuba to come here, and they dont want to go back. If life is so good then why come here.

Again, mainly due to the US enforced trade-block. From a materialistic point of view (i.e. access to material goods and wealth) the US is of course better off, but Cuba would do a lot better if the block was lifted.

 

[Brokendoll]

Ok, what purpose would cloning anyone be, what would be the benefit, just to have someone you can "rob parts" from. As far as cloning food, thats for the better, larger fruit, vegetables, able to fight off pest and disease. If I was a clone I don't think I would like giving up my eyes or anything heart lungs kidneys just so someone else could look younger.

Cloning, like stem-cell research (adult and embryonic) is currently a research tool that allows us to better understand genetics, among other things. This could in the future lead to cures for diseases, better treatments, gene-therapiesand so on. At the moment no-one is advocating cloning people that are to be grown to adulthood (as mentioned this is illegal in most countries), but cloning organs for transplants could very well be feasible in the not so distant future. So unless you think that a liver or a heart has a soul and a mind of its own, I don't think you have much to worry about.

 

[jasoncran]

Do you think that diet might have something to do with life expetency.

Yup, it does. But forget those "miracle" diet cures. Here's all you need to know about nutrition; unless you have some kind of deficiency or allergy (in which case you should talk to a doctor anyway), just eat a varied diet of vegetables, fruit, fish, meat, bread and so on. The body will take care of the rest. It knows what it needs.

Cuba, yeah i wouldnt know about that country now would I, as i'm only less then 600 miles from that country. Uh they cant even build new cars , they still use the 50's tech. I dont think there medicine is really all there.

Their lack of material resources are largely due to the US enforced trade-block. And based on what resources they have avaliable, they have done a lot more than the US have, particularily with regards to health-care. and americans dont eat well, still not sold on cuba, i will let that one go for another thread as i can talk missonairies that go there.Havana is rather dirty to say the least.

Funny i see cubans who have left cuba to come here, and they dont want to go back. If life is so good then why come here.

Again, mainly due to the US enforced trade-block. From a materialistic point of view (i.e. access to material goods and wealth) the US is of course better off, but Cuba would do a lot better if the block was lifted.

 

[freeway]

by Brokendoll on Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:56 pm

freeway01 wrote:
Ok, what purpose would cloning anyone be, what would be the benefit, just to have someone you can "rob parts" from. As far as cloning food, thats for the better, larger fruit, vegetables, able to fight off pest and disease. If I was a clone I don't think I would like giving up my eyes or anything heart lungs kidneys just so someone else could look younger.

Brokendoll says"
Cloning, like stem-cell research (adult and embryonic) is currently a research tool that allows us to better understand genetics, among other things. This could in the future lead to cures for diseases, better treatments, gene-therapiesand so on. At the moment no-one is advocating cloning people that are to be grown to adulthood (as mentioned this is illegal in most countries), but cloning organs for transplants could very well be feasible in the not so distant future. So unless you think that a liver or a heart has a soul and a mind of its own, I don't think you have much to worry about.

Adult stem cell research if fine. There is no life being taken. As far as I know embryonic stem cell has not shown any fair results. Where as adult stem cell looks very promising. I was under the impression this was about cloning humans to be human farms. My bad..