Conditional Election... what is it, and is it biblical...?

[Eventide]

The Apostle Paul writes in 2 Thess 2;

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

There it is, and it really doesn't get much simpler than this.. end of story...

NOW if simple questions like "What must I do to be saved ?" can't be answered correctly by many, what in the world would make anyone think that this truth matters.

Regardless of the simple truth of scripture written right here.. many will completely ignore it and continue to believe that which the 'so called scholars' of the day teach them instead.. that they're chosen by God without a single condition.

Sad isn't it ?

 

[Danus]

Don't stop there. Go ahead and list the conditions one must meet to receive Gods grace, mercy, & Forgiveness. What must anyone do by their own power first to be accepted by God as worthy to be saved.

 

[Eventide]

Don't stop there. Go ahead and list the conditions one must meet to receive Gods grace, mercy, & Forgiveness. What must anyone do by their own power first to be accepted by God as worthy to be saved.

Why Danus.. the LORD stopped there.. isn't His word enough for you.. or would you rather check with RC Sproul first..

 

[Eventide]

Ya know.. it wouldn't be so bad if the 'Reformed' camp just told everyone their beliefs.. but no... their teachers also have to hypnotize them into thinking that everyone who doesn's think like them are saving themselves... they're doing it all on their own... as if the Holy Spirit didn't even exist.. as if conviction didn't exist.. as if nothing but my own efforts were responsible for salvation..

Again, pretty sad when this is all you hear day after day.. just because others don't buy into the nonsense that they were unconditionally CHOSEN BY GOD..

 

[rrowell]

Ya know.. it wouldn't be so bad if the 'Reformed' camp just told everyone their beliefs.. but no... their teachers also have to hypnotize them into thinking that everyone who doesn's think like them are saving themselves... they're doing it all on their own... as if the Holy Spirit didn't even exist.. as if conviction didn't exist.. as if nothing but my own efforts were responsible for salvation..

Again, pretty sad when this is all you hear day after day.. just because others don't buy into the nonsense that they were unconditionally CHOSEN BY GOD..

Exactly,

If God had predestined salvation why would Christ have to have died? people are already destined to be saved and destined to be lost, no need for Christ... the whole logic does not make sense...

 

[rrowell]

Don't stop there. Go ahead and list the conditions one must meet to receive Gods grace, mercy, & Forgiveness. What must anyone do by their own power first to be accepted by God as worthy to be saved.

Hear the Gospel:

Romans 10:13-17 (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Danus]

Well, this is the apologetics and theology section of this forum, where theology and apologetics are discussed. If you are proposing a theology, or understanding of God's word, then you should be able to answer a few questions others have of you view, or understanding.

You have already indicated that there are "conditions" to salvation. That is to say that there is something one must do to be saved. Put another way, there is some expectation of the person receiving salvation. Another way I look at your view is to say that the salvation God offers is like a contract where the one receiving the salvation must live up to something. Something is expected in return for the salvation. You said that salvation is Quid pro quo ("this for that" in Latin)

So, I'm asking what is expected of the one to be saved? What must they bring to the table and give to God in return for his salvation. In this "schema" you describe where salvation from God is "conditional", what are the contractual terms please.

I have shared my understanding, I have answered questions and will continue to do so, now that we have several threads going. I am asking for your answers to my questions please., and I will make a deal with you. I will not post any counter "Calvin", or Luther, or any Reformed, or Biblical arguments in your thread. I promise. All I will do is ask questions. Can you answer the questions I have here please?

 

[Eventide]

You have already indicated that there are "conditions" to salvation.

I have simply showed from the scriptures that..

God.. (NOT ME), hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Now you tell me how that leads you to believe that God chose YOU, unconditionally.

IOW, you're trying to tell us that God DID NOT chose you because you were sanctified by the Spirit, and NOT because you believed the truth..

Here's another simple one for you..

1. What must I do to be saved ?

a) BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved...

b) Nothing.. RC Sproul says that I'm CHOSEN BY GOD unconditionally..

This is embarrasing imo Danus.. and the bottom line is this.. you can't even begin to fathom that you're wrong.. you wrote in the other thread of mine that these things are not your opinion but simply what God says..

It's the Spirit of the age no doubt.. impossible for 'reformed' people to even remotely consider what THEY believe to be wrong..

And that too is sad.

 

[rrowell]

So, I'm asking what is expected of the one to be saved? What must they bring to the table and give to God in return for his salvation. In this "schema" you describe where salvation from God is "conditional", what are the contractual terms please.

Here is your contract, it also goes by the name New Testament, if you don't think its a contract God made with you, look up the word "Covenant" :

Hebrews 8:7-13 (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Note the part I added emphasis, (will and shall) I don't see any predestined there?
He will and you shall if you go along with the contract (covenant)

 

[Danus]

I have simply showed from the scriptures that..

God.. (NOT ME), hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Now you tell me how that leads you to believe that God chose YOU, unconditionally.

IOW, you're trying to tell us that God DID NOT chose you because you were sanctified by the Spirit, and NOT because you believed the truth..

Here's another simple one for you..

1. What must I do to be saved ?

a) BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved...

b) Nothing.. RC Sproul says that I'm CHOSEN BY GOD unconditionally..

This is embarrasing imo Danus.. and the bottom line is this.. you can't even begin to fathom that you're wrong.. you wrote in the other thread of mine that these things are not your opinion but simply what God says..

It's the Spirit of the age no doubt.. impossible for 'reformed' people to even remotely consider what THEY believe to be wrong..

And that too is sad.

Well that's a little better, but how is it that you believe? If you are sin by nature from birth, which you've said is so, then how is it you can believe in Jesus Christ when so many others do not. What is it you have to do this?

 

[Eventide]

Well that's a little better, but how is it that you believe? If you are sin by nature from birth, which you've said is so, then how is it you can believe in Jesus Christ when so many others do not. What is it you have to do this?

It's called conviction Danus.. a simple biblical term which many simply do not understand. It's as if you folks believe that God only calls YOU or something..? ? ?

And of course your testimony is clear..

You CAN NOT BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ.. despite the mountains of evidence.

And as you say.. multitudes DO BELIEVE Danus.. but evidently YOU can't.

Another sad story, and yet true.

 

[Danus]

It's called conviction Danus.. a simple biblical term which many simply do not understand. It's as if you folks believe that God only calls YOU or something..? ? ?

And of course your testimony is clear..

You CAN NOT BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ.. despite the mountains of evidence.

And as you say.. multitudes DO BELIEVE Danus.. but evidently YOU can't.

Another sad story, and yet true.

I never said I don't believe in Christ. I said I did not believe in Christ until I had faith to believe.

So you believe in Christ because you have a conviction. How did you get that?

 

[Eventide]

I never said I don't believe in Christ. I said I did not believe in Christ until I had faith to believe.

Actually NO.. your testimony is that YOU could NOT believe, and God had to choose YOU so that you COULD BELIEVE..

So you believe in Christ because you have a conviction. How did you get that?

How did I become convinced that I was a sinner and needed a Saviour ? By the power of the Holy Spirit convincing me of these things.. how else.. ?

Why are you so disingenuous Danus.. nevermind.. I already know.. because as mentioned.. you can't even begin to fathom that YOU are wrong.

 

[Danus]

Actually NO.. your testimony is that YOU could NOT believe, and God had to choose YOU so that you COULD BELIEVE..



How did I become convinced that I was a sinner and needed a Saviour ? By the power of the Holy Spirit convincing me of these things.. how else.. ?

Why are you so disingenuous Danus.. nevermind.. I already know.. because as mentioned.. you can't even begin to fathom that YOU are wrong.

That's the same way I received faith to believe. I was also at that moment convicted of my sin. So would you say that was from God to you? The power of the spirit of God?

 

[Eventide]

That's the same way I received faith to believe. I was also at that moment convicted of my sin. So would you say that was from God to you? The power of the spirit of God?

Of course Danus.. just because your teachers rant about how we all saved ourselves, it doesn't make it true.

So once again... how does this lead YOU to believe that GOD CHOSE you unconditionally.. without it having anything to do with conviction or belief.. when you just told me that is what happened to you ?

 

[Danus]

Of course Danus.. just because your teachers rant about how we all saved ourselves, it doesn't make it true.

So once again... how does this lead YOU to believe that GOD CHOSE you unconditionally.. without it having anything to do with conviction or belief.. when you just told me that is what happened to you ?

Well I made a promise not to say anything about reformed theology, but I believe God chose me to have faith at a moment in time. I believe this because I did not ask for it, I simply asked for help if he was real. At that moment I was converted. I then set out to learn about a God I did not know but just met who. Changed my life.

So it makes perfect sense to me that God chose me in my helplessness to chose him.

 

[Eventide]

Well I made a promise not to say anything about reformed theology, but I believe God chose me to have faith at a moment in time. I believe this because I did not ask for it, I simply asked for help if he was real. At that moment I was converted. I then set out to learn about a God I did not know but just met who. Changed my life.

So it makes perfect sense to me that God chose me in my helplessness to chose him.

Well, as you say.. you go with that.. regardless of the fact that the scriptures teach otherwise.. specifically that God SEALED you with the Holy Spirit of promise.. after you heard the truth and after you believed.

Evidently you must think that you're pretty special.. I mean, God did this for you and yet doesn't do it for all men..

Instead of listening to CHOSEN BY GOD so often, perhaps you should read and meditate on what the scriptures actually do say.

Just a suggestion

 

[Eventide]

And if you feel inclined to do so.. perhaps you can explain how that God choosing you from the beginning through sanctification of the SPIRIT and BELIEF of the TRUTH results in election being unconditional..

Evidently, regardless of this simple biblical truth.. you will continue to believe that God did not choose you through sanctification of the SPIRIT and BELIEF of the TRUTH.. but rather unconditionally..

How come.. ?

Is it because RC SPROUL and all your other teachers say it's so ?

 

[Danus]

And if you feel inclined to do so.. perhaps you can explain how that God choosing you from the beginning through sanctification of the SPIRIT and BELIEF of the TRUTH results in election being unconditional..

Evidently, regardless of this simple biblical truth.. you will continue to believe that God did not choose you through sanctification of the SPIRIT and BELIEF of the TRUTH.. but rather unconditionally..

How come.. ?

Is it because RC SPROUL and all your other teachers say it's so ?

I see you don't like RC. I will not mention him in your thread. I think he is brilliant and has a great way of explaining things that I agree with and I like to share what he has to offer. I quote him quite a bit, but I quote others also.

You asked how do I relate "sanctification of the SPIRIT and BELIEF of the TRUTH" as unconditional? well, if you are saying that those things, "belief" or "sanctification" are from you to God then I guess those are conditions you are saying the believer must meet?

Here is what I find from some, not so much from you; but some believe, and have clearly expressed on this forum time and time again, that they are sinless by their own choice, and that they have chosen to be saved because they are good to be saved. God approves of them, and their righteous behavior and thoughts and so they are saved. They will go on to indicate that they can at any time not be saved when they do "bad things" and then in order to be saved again they simply straighten their act up and meet all the conditions for salvation again. No dirty thoughts, or actions and ask for God's forgivness again and get their salvation card back.

There are varying degrees of this type of notion, and everyone of them can find one liner verses to back up what they say. In the end people hold to what they know, and nothing more than that generally.

I have taken the time to spend with you on this because I find you're views unique. Many who I've sen help back you up have said we are born sinless, but you have said we are born sin. That's the kicker right there.

You have indicated that man is sinful, as the bible says, where as many others holding similar view disagree. That is probably the key to understanding salvation. Knowing you are a sinner, but to what degree one knows thins varies.

That's one of the main reasons people hate Calvin. he starts off saying man kind is totally depraved. I like to say we are utterly sinful. People don;t like that. They want to be good. the bible tells us only God is good. people don;t like that. They want to be good also, and by Golly they will be. Many set out to show God just how good they are.

I think God chooses those who understand first just how sinful they are. This is purely my opinion, but I think that's one of his highest "conditions" for choosing anyone. However, I think he chooses those who don't know they are sinful as well, but do not think they are sinless either. I think he also works with those who think they are sinless to try and use their sin to call to them and show them just how sinful they are. Some never turn from their sin in thinking they are without sin, and others don't even care embracing their sin, but I think those two sinners are the same.

Anyway, that's my honest opinion.

 

[Eventide]

The other side of this simple truth to the scriptures is told us as well.. That people will be damned because they RECEIVED NOT the love of the truth that they might be saved..

Imagine that.. Damned for not receiving the truth..

And so many are led to believe that God regenerated them so that they did believe..

No matter how you slice it.. That's special.