CONVICTION...

[Eventide]

Where does CONVICTION come from.. and what is CONVICTION based upon..?

One word..

EVIDENCE..

This is true regardless of whether we're talking about Christianity or life in general.. because even in the courts of men conviction comes from evidence.

The Holy Spirit of God was sent at Pentecost to convict (or convince) the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and the evidence of all three of these things is overwhelming.. and so of course this is where faith toward God has its basis.. in the evidence.. faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.

Can the Spirit of God convince a person that there is nothing good in them, and that there is everything good in Him.. and that the entire world will be judged upon this basis.. and by that man ?

Can two walk together except they be agreed ?

Can a man have two masters ?

Share your thoughts on this infinitely glorious topic within the living and powerful pages of the oracles of God..

 

[childeye]

There is a Truth as to which we ascertain knowledge. This Truth formed by the creation source invoves the moral purpose of this source and revelation of that purpose, therefore honesty is the prerequisate for conviction. We cannot see where the light begins and ends so all we can agree upon is from which direction it is shining.

 

[Eventide]

..therefore honesty is the prerequisate for conviction..

I'm not sure about this comment.. A person can be convicted and still deny the truth imo..

One of my favorite quotes by an unbeliever is this..

"It's not what I don't understand in the bible that bothers me.. it's what I do understand in the bible.. that bothers me."

On the other hand, I do see the parable of the sower speaking of the good seed falling upon an honest heart.. and then it bears fruit.. which seems to speak of the fact that agreeing with God is a prerequisite for walking with God and bearing fruit.

The Pharisees perceived that Jesus was speaking about them and yet they didn't agree with what He was saying.

 

[childeye]

I'm not sure about this comment.. A person can be convicted and still deny the truth imo..

One of my favorite quotes by an unbeliever is this..

"It's not what I don't understand in the bible that bothers me.. it's what I do understand in the bible.. that bothers me."

On the other hand, I do see the parable of the sower speaking of the good seed falling upon an honest heart.. and then it bears fruit.. which seems to speak of the fact that agreeing with God is a prerequisite for walking with God and bearing fruit.

The Pharisees perceived that Jesus was speaking about them and yet they didn't agree with what He was saying.

I get your point. You are saying that the Pharisees were convicted even as they denied it should be applied to them. We are discussing semantics therefore. For one who is pure of heart would regard the term conviction as being convinced and be thankful and glad for the correction, while the impure of heart would count it as accusation and take it as a personal attack of character. This is why some people love the darkness more than the light and so are in condemnation.

The same Word can produce both light and darkness in one's heart depending on one's humility and pride which are in degrees relative to one's esteem of God. Hence God humbles those who exhault themselves and exhaults those who humble themselves.

 

[Eventide]

I get your point. You are saying that the Pharisees were convicted even as they denied it should be applied to them. We are discussing semantics therefore. For one who is pure of heart would regard the term conviction as being convinced and be thankful and glad for the correction, while the impure of heart would count it as accusation and take it as a personal attack of character. This is why some people love the darkness more than the light and so are in condemnation.

The same Word can produce both light and darkness in one's heart depending on one's humility and pride which are in degrees relative to one's esteem of God. Hence God humbles those who exhault themselves and exhaults those who humble themselves.

So imo this looks like the following..

If I agree with God, then I'm being honest with myself.. because I should easily see that I'm a sinner.. and if I disagree with God, then obviously I'm not being honest with myself.. and of course there are other factors involved.. deception etc..

Either way I think that there is conviction.. it's just a matter of whether or not we agree with what God says in His word... and if that true light doesn't convince people of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. then what would..

 

[childeye]

So imo this looks like the following..

If I agree with God, then I'm being honest with myself.. because I should easily see that I'm a sinner.. and if I disagree with God, then obviously I'm not being honest with myself.. and of course there are other factors involved.. deception etc..

Either way I think that there is conviction.. it's just a matter of whether or not we agree with what God says in His word... and if that true light doesn't convince people of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. then what would..

Yes i think it is about having honesty and honesty will agree with God because the Truth is self-evident. Any disagreement with it condemns one's self in hypocrisy. Here is where I would differ with you. The Word I am talking about is not scripture, but rather the voice of God in one's heart as in a personal relationship with the Christ. The Holy Spirit is a person not a book.

There are lies that are deep seeded inside us that produce all manner of sin, and for this sin to be stopped there must come a Truth described as the Holy Spirit that reveals the falsehood of these lies and consequently puts an end to the sin they produce. This is why Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.

However if you pray for this Truth to come upon you so as to be free from sin, do not expect to receive it if you are judging others as willful sinners on the belief that there is no such Truth necessary to stop sin. That is a hypocritical thinking. And this is why I say the only true freewill is the one who has the knowledge of God.

 

[Eventide]

Yes i think it is about having honesty and honesty will agree with God because the Truth is self-evident.

I'm not sure if we have honesty.. it's an interesting subject in itself. I can agree with the truth, although I'm not the truth etc.. is honesty simply believing what is true ?

Any disagreement with it condemns one's self in hypocrisy.

I can agree.. disagreeing with what is true certainly doesn't help anyone.

Here is where I would differ with you. The Word I am talking about is not scripture, but rather the voice of God in one's heart as in a personal relationship with the Christ. The Holy Spirit is a person not a book.

OK, I understand that there's a difference between the word of God in scripture as compared to the Word made flesh.. ie, the fulness of the Godhead bodily.. although that in no way diminishes that the scriptures are the words of God.. they're His authoritive words scripted by the prophets who had the Spirit of God in them..

I hope you're not going to tell me that the holy scriptures are not actually the word of God.

There are lies that are deep seeded inside us that produce all manner of sin, and for this sin to be stopped there must come a Truth described as the Holy Spirit that reveals the falsehood of these lies and consequently puts an end to the sin they produce. This is why Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.

Are you suggesting that the holy scriptures can't set us free from lies..? Again, I hope not..

However if you pray for this Truth to come upon you so as to be free from sin, do not expect to receive it if you are judging others as willful sinners on the belief that there is no such Truth necessary to stop sin. That is a hypocritical thinking. And this is why I say the only true freewill is the one who has the knowledge of God.

Childeye.. who is judging anyone here ? Are you implying that if we don't agree on all things that we're judging each other.. ?

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;576058]I'm not sure if we have honesty.. it's an interesting subject in itself. I can agree with the truth, although I'm not the truth etc.. is honesty simply believing what is true ?

Yes because Truth is self evident when presented by the Holy Spirit. That's why there is the conviction I'm talking about defined as being convinced of sin. Where does dishonesty come from is a more worthy question. Pride we will find there I suspect. Hence honesty is also tied to humility.

OK, I understand that there's a difference between the word of God in scripture as compared to the Word made flesh.. ie, the fulness of the Godhead bodily.. although that in no way diminishes that the scriptures are the words of God.. they're His authoritive words scripted by the prophets who had the Spirit of God in them..

I hope you're not going to tell me that the holy scriptures are not actually the word of God.

Relax Eventide, I can't honestly say everything in the bible was said by God. But to not go into some problems I have with declaring the bible without flaw, I do believe it is inspired by God. It has spoken to me sometimes as if I can almost hear Christ speaking directly to me. There is spoken Word as in preached, written Word as in scripture and the living Word which is Spirit. All of these are the same but serve the Spirit which is the revelation of God which to us is the Holy Spirit, the revelation of God. The scriptures can be misinterpreted without guidance of the Holy Spirit. When applied as the Word of God in such a manner, it can kill. The scriptures are a testimony to God and to His Word therefore they are written Word in the letter but one must have the Holy Spirit to properly perceive the intent of the writer.

Are you suggesting that the holy scriptures can't set us free from lies..? Again, I hope not..

It is the Holy Spirit that sets one free from lies. That is why it is called the Spirit of Truth. That is why Scripture says He convicts of sin. Scripture does not say scripture convicts of sin. Oh scripture in the letter can condemn of themselves, but not convince. The Holy Spirit could use scripture to convict but so can Satan. There are just too many instances of sin that are so subtle we would not see them simply by reading scripture. The Pharisees had and knew scripture but they did not recognize who they are about and they argued and even crucified him thinking they were following scripture. This Holy Spirit business is very personal one on one and happening in the mind and heart all the time. Certainly The Holy Spirit calls scripture to remembrance at the appropriate times. So I guess I would say that scripture says you need the Holy Spirit to be convicted of sin and I concur.

Childeye.. who is judging anyone here ? Are you implying that if we don't agree on all things that we're judging each other.. ?

I sincerely didn't mean to imply anyone was judging anyone. I'm sorry it came across that way. I simply want to point out that people will be slaves of sin without the Holy Spirit who convicts.

 

[Eventide]

I can't honestly say everything in the bible was said by God. But to not go into some problems I have with declaring the bible without flaw, I do believe it is inspired by God.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God..

So you can't be honest about the scriptures being the word of God ? How come, what flaws are you aware of in the holy scriptures ?

It has spoken to me sometimes as if I can almost hear Christ speaking directly to me.

ALMOST ?

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures..

Who do you think said that.. God or men ?

There is spoken Word as in preached, written Word as in scripture and the living Word which is Spirit. All of these are the same but serve the Spirit which is the revelation of God which to us is the Holy Spirit, the revelation of God. The scriptures can be misinterpreted without guidance of the Holy Spirit. When applied as the Word of God in such a manner, it can kill. The scriptures are a testimony to God and to His Word therefore they are written Word in the letter but one must have the Holy Spirit to properly perceive the intent of the writer.

Obviously the holy scriptures are of no value to those who do not believe them.. although generally within a Christian forum we're speaking of those who are born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever..

It is the Holy Spirit that sets one free from lies. That is why it is called the Spirit of Truth. That is why Scripture says He convicts of sin. Scripture does not say scripture convicts of sin. Oh scripture in the letter can condemn of themselves, but not convince.

And how do you know that the truth sets us free ?

Are the holy scriptures truth ?

The Holy Spirit could use scripture to convict but so can Satan. There are just too many instances of sin that are so subtle we would not see them simply by reading scripture. The Pharisees had and knew scripture but they did not recognize who they are about and they argued and even crucified him thinking they were following scripture. This Holy Spirit business is very personal one on one and happening in the mind and heart all the time. Certainly The Holy Spirit calls scripture to remembrance at the appropriate times. So I guess I would say that scripture says you need the Holy Spirit to be convicted of sin and I concur.

Yes, again, in a Christian forum we're generally speaking of those who are born again, not of those who are not.. although the truth of scripture is still truth regardless of whether or not we believe it is truth.

Once again, how do you know that the Spirit convinces us of sin.. because that's what the holy scriptures teach..

I sincerely didn't mean to imply anyone was judging anyone. I'm sorry it came across that way. I simply want to point out that people will be slaves of sin without the Holy Spirit who convicts.

If you didn't mean what you said, then why did you say it ?

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;576186]All scripture is given by inspiration of God..

So you can't be honest about the scriptures being the word of God ?

I can't honestly say there are no flaws. Or I honestly can say I don't know if there are no flaws.

How come, what flaws are you aware of in the holy scriptures ?

I told you I didn't want to get into this. Why? because it's futile. But so not to let you go off and think I am saying the scriptures are falsehood, I'll give you an example. There are two differing accounts of Judas' death, two different accounts of what the thieves on the two sides of the cross said. Please let it go at that. Those little irregularities are really insignifigant. The point is Jesus, who is the Christ come in the flesh, died on the cross for the sins of man.

ALMOST ?

You know, as in I almost could swear I audibly heard his voice with my external ears.

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures..

Who do you think said that.. God or men ?

This is a silly question. It depends, for we know God said it in the Old Testament writings of prophets of God who were men. Also men have been saying it all over the world since it has come to pass and even wrote it down in what we refer to in the bible as the New Testament.

Obviously the holy scriptures are of no value to those who do not believe them.. although generally within a Christian forum we're speaking of those who are born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever..

Yes and that incorruptible Word of God is Spirit that has existed through eternity for it is God, which therefore only a lame brain would think the bible is God.

And how do you know that the truth sets us free ?

From first hand experience.

Are the holy scriptures truth ?

No, God is Truth. They testify to the Truth as a Spirit called the Holy Spirit of Truth who testifies to the Father and the son. Wherein this Spirit inspired men to write down such testimony of God which we deem as scripture.

Yes, again, in a Christian forum we're generally speaking of those who are born again, not of those who are not.. although the truth of scripture is still truth regardless of whether or not we believe it is truth.

Yes, that is a problem as Jesus said,"go look in your prescious scriptures wherein you think you have eternal life for they all testify to me."
Then those who worshipped scripture as God crucified Him whom they were about.

Once again, how do you know that the Spirit convinces us of sin.. because that's what the holy scriptures teach..

The scriptures say it because it is true, not it's true because the scriptures say it. That's what testifying to the Truth means.

If you didn't mean what you said, then why did you say it ?

I didn't say I didn't mean what I said. I said I didn't mean to imply what you took from it. You're doing that thing you do with semantics. Misunderstanding what I say.

 

[Eventide]

No, God is Truth..

This is your response to my question asking you if the scriptures are truth..

If God is true and every man a liar.. and He inspired the holy scriptures.. then how can the scriptures not be truth ?

Do you believe that they're lies ?

 

[childeye]

This is your response to my question asking you if the scriptures are truth..

If God is true and every man a liar.. and He inspired the holy scriptures.. then how can the scriptures not be truth ?

Do you believe that they're lies ?

Eventide, what kind of grilling do you have lined up for me now? I quote scripture all over this forum. Of course I don't believe the scriptures are lies. You are being silly again. The scriptures are true as best as I am able to discern but they are not Truth. Is that what you need to hear? I'm not going to say God is a book.

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, what kind of grilling do you have lined up for me now? I quote scripture all over this forum. Of course I don't believe the scriptures are lies. You are being silly again.

You also said that they're not truth.. so please explain what they are if you would.

 

[childeye]

You also said that they're not truth.. so please explain what they are if you would.

The writings of men who had heard from God.

 

[Eventide]

The writings of men who had heard from God.

According to the scriptures, they're written down by men through the inspiration of God.. and so how can they not be truth ?

 

[Eventide]

The scriptures are God's testimony concerning His Son.. for in the volume of the book it is written of Me saith the Lord.

And we know that God is true and every man a liar.. so either they're inspired by God and true, or they're written by men and lies..

Which is it..?

 

[childeye]

According to the scriptures, they're written down by men through the inspiration of God.. and so how can they not be truth ?

I will say this. I don't even understand all of scripture so I am in no position to honestly say they are without error or not in any way. Mind you the quote saying all scripture is inspired by the holy Spirit was said before the New Testament was written. Therefore that statement is refering to what we regard as the Old Testament, the laws and the prophets. I take that in faith that those scriptures are without error.

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;576367]The scriptures are God's testimony concerning His Son.. for in the volume of the book it is written of Me saith the Lord.

Yes I believe I've said that already.

And we know that God is true and every man a liar.. so either they're inspired by God and true, or they're written by men and lies..

Which is it..?

As I said they are written by men who heard from God. I think this is well known.

 

[Eventide]

Yes I believe I've said that already.


As I said they are written by men who heard from God. I think this is well known.

And again, you also said that they're not truth.. so perhaps you can explain how they're not truth.

 

[Eventide]

I will say this. I don't even understand all of scripture so I am in no position to honestly say they are without error or not in any way. Mind you the quote saying all scripture is inspired by the holy Spirit was said before the New Testament was written. Therefore that statement is refering to what we regard as the Old Testament, the laws and the prophets. I take that in faith that those scriptures are without error.

OK, so you believe that the OT is truth, but not the NT..? Is that what you're getting at ?