[_ Old Earth _] Death and old age

[brujaq]

I think evolution is the dumbest thing I've ever considered even though when I was Atheist I believed it and every thing science said about it .. Here's my question .. Evolution gets credit for the most remarkable things that God created but God tells us where death comes from and why .. Why didn't evolution develop mitochondria and telomeres that beat old age and death .. Life as created by God begins with a couple cells and grows into a mature organism, I mean DNA and cell structures send messages to grow teeth , brains, bones, muscle, eyes and who knows what all else . But we are told why death . OTOH If evolution gets your credit then why couldn't these remarkable organic machines solve and evolve to fix a simple problem like more perfect cell replication ?

 

[Milk-Drops]

I think evolution is the dumbest thing I've ever considered even though when I was Atheist I believed it and every thing science said about it .. Here's my question .. Evolution gets credit for the most remarkable things that God created but God tells us where death comes from and why .. Why didn't evolution develop mitochondria and telomeres that beat old age and death .. Life as created by God begins with a couple cells and grows into a mature organism, I mean DNA and cell structures send messages to grow teeth , brains, bones, muscle, eyes and who knows what all else . But we are told why death . OTOH If evolution gets your credit then why couldn't these remarkable organic machines solve and evolve to fix a simple problem like more perfect cell replication ?

There are some organisms that don't age past a certain point or basically fully clone or reboot themselves. Most of them being aquatic. The mechanics behind evolution by decent don't necessarily have an end goal because natural selection has to work with what develops, but doesn't actively develop anything specifically. To ask why something didn't arise basically boils down to it just didn't arise. Its similar to playing a game of solitar that ends with a stalemate, its just how that hand was dealt. As I already mentioned there are some species like Lobsters that don't die naturally unless killed or contract a disease. There is also a species of jellyfish that basically phoenixes itself when it hits "old age".

 

[KevinK]

That's a pretty broad line of inquiry and I wouldn't pretend to have an answer to it all. I can try to answer bits of it perhaps, though I'm not sure if I even grasp the question(s).

The last part, about "more perfect cell replication": Evolution through natural selection requires imperfect replication to work. Natural selection works on variability, the variability supplied by a natural mutation rate. Most changes offer no additional value or are even detrimental and are discarded; those that produce improved viability are retained in the gene pool.

If cells and indeed the entire organism reproduced error-free and perfect, there would by definition be no changes and thus no evolution. It may seem odd that such a vital biological process be not just tolerant of but dependent on an imperfect process, but that's really how it is.

So maybe that's the trade-off for basing life on an evolutionary process. Imperfect organelles that eventually stop working and die, but that's versus organelles that never developed in the first place.

 

[brujaq]

That's a pretty broad line of inquiry and I wouldn't pretend to have an answer to it all. I can try to answer bits of it perhaps, though I'm not sure if I even grasp the question(s).

The last part, about "more perfect cell replication": Evolution through natural selection requires imperfect replication to work. Natural selection works on variability, the variability supplied by a natural mutation rate. Most changes offer no additional value or are even detrimental and are discarded; those that produce improved viability are retained in the gene pool.

If cells and indeed the entire organism reproduced error-free and perfect, there would by definition be no changes and thus no evolution. It may seem odd that such a vital biological process be not just tolerant of but dependent on an imperfect process, but that's really how it is.

So maybe that's the trade-off for basing life on an evolutionary process. Imperfect organelles that eventually stop working and die, but that's versus organelles that never developed in the first place.

So you're saying evolution is not or would not be random ..

 

[Milk-Drops]

So you're saying evolution is not or would not be random ..

The mechanics of Evolution aren't random, mutation is random. For example the mutation that would effect telomeres to not degrade at specific rate would be random, but how it becomes a dominant trait would not be random.

 

[KevinK]

So you're saying evolution is not or would not be random ..

As Milk-Drops explained, the mutations driving evolution by natural selection is random. Therefore, the process as a whole (meaning the final results) must be considered random, except for one tantalizing tidbit...

A statistician decided to crunch the actual numbers to support the random nature of the theory of evolution. He wasn't quite able to do it. The numbers seemed to indicate that within the scope and timeframe of life as it developed on earth, the results cannot be explained with evolution as a purely random process. Something was guiding the course of evolution, a hidden hand if you will, "forcing" the results.

I wonder whose hand it might be?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think evolution is the dumbest thing I've ever considered even though when I was Atheist I believed it and every thing science said about it .. Here's my question .. Evolution gets credit for the most remarkable things that God created but God tells us where death comes from and why .. Why didn't evolution develop mitochondria and telomeres that beat old age and death .. Life as created by God begins with a couple cells and grows into a mature organism, I mean DNA and cell structures send messages to grow teeth , brains, bones, muscle, eyes and who knows what all else . But we are told why death . OTOH If evolution gets your credit then why couldn't these remarkable organic machines solve and evolve to fix a simple problem like more perfect cell replication ?

Hi Brujag

Welcome to the forum.

I don't belong on science treads, just want to say this...
I have a simple answer to your ending question.
It's because Everything is affected by the sin nature.
Nothing on this Earth will ever be perfect.

 

[brujaq]

There are some organisms that don't age past a certain point or basically fully clone or reboot themselves. Most of them being aquatic. The mechanics behind evolution by decent don't necessarily have an end goal because natural selection has to work with what develops, but doesn't actively develop anything specifically. To ask why something didn't arise basically boils down to it just didn't arise. Its similar to playing a game of solitar that ends with a stalemate, its just how that hand was dealt. As I already mentioned there are some species like Lobsters that don't die naturally unless killed or contract a disease. There is also a species of jellyfish that basically phoenixes itself when it hits "old age".

I think you missed my point . I was taught that a simple single cell happened to form once upon a time and then abiogenesis occurred to begin the evolution process to all living things we see today. It turns out that there is no such thing as a simple cell and living cells are more like mini factories designed to function it's certain way. You know this .. Absolutely marvelous creations within creations yet with all that we die . We have built in hospitals to heal broken bones, stop bleeding and fight infections just to scratch the surface . Symbiotic relationships galore, tadpoles starting out hatched in water then emerging as frogs to live on land, and caterpillars that spin cocoons to emerge as seemingly a totally different animal life. And my favorite puzzle ,the lifecycle of a guinea worm .. But we grow old and die . We are eternal beings so that means there's even more . Dying is programmed in because God created all natural and supernatural creation . IMO dying can only be answered by the existence of God and not evolution . God even schools us why physical death . Otherwise evolution would naturally have the answer to continue to live, each organism .. God bless you ..

 

[brujaq]

As Milk-Drops explained, the mutations driving evolution by natural selection is random. Therefore, the process as a whole (meaning the final results) must be considered random, except for one tantalizing tidbit...

A statistician decided to crunch the actual numbers to support the random nature of the theory of evolution. He wasn't quite able to do it. The numbers seemed to indicate that within the scope and timeframe of life as it developed on earth, the results cannot be explained with evolution as a purely random process. Something was guiding the course of evolution, a hidden hand if you will, "forcing" the results.

I wonder whose hand it might be?

Hi Kev, have you ever seen some of those numbers after they've tried to be crunched ? God bless you ..

 

[Milk-Drops]

I think you missed my point .

If you point is that living being are amazing and that death is confusing, I understand. I'm just pointing out how mechanics work because you mentioned liking science, I felt like sharing my knowledge on it.

I was taught that a simple single cell happened to form once upon a time and then abiogenesis occurred to begin the evolution process to all living things we see today.

Who ever taught you got it backwards. Abiogenesis explains how simple cells are able to form in nature chemically and explains the building blocks of RNA and DNA. RNA and DNA replicate, so through a primitive version of natural selection cells would form after many replication cycles that built off of RNA.

It turns out that there is no such thing as a simple cell and living cells are more like mini factories designed to function it's certain way. You know this .. Absolutely marvelous creations within creations yet with all that we die .

Yes death is a sad event and the fact it happens is unsettling. There are simple cells however, modern cells formed from almost uncountable replications and divergence from older organisms. DNA and RNA replication built on and added more complex systems as the cells did more complex processes.

We have built in hospitals to heal broken bones, stop bleeding and fight infections just to scratch the surface . Symbiotic relationships galore, tadpoles starting out hatched in water then emerging as frogs to live on land, and caterpillars that spin cocoons to emerge as seemingly a totally different animal life. And my favorite puzzle ,the lifecycle of a guinea worm .. But we grow old and die . We are eternal beings so that means there's even more . Dying is programmed in because God created all natural and supernatural creation . IMO dying can only be answered by the existence of God and not evolution . God even schools us why physical death . Otherwise evolution would naturally have the answer to continue to live, each organism .. God bless you ..

You can believe what you want, but the difference I have is that I don't see a reason for death to not exist in evolution because all evolution does is build off of replicated RNA and DNA sequences. Our telomeres degrade due to constant rewrites and aging happens in many mammals due to these mutations. Evolution doesn't pin point issues to fix, but instead is just the explanation of how organisms adapted to their surroundings.

 

[brujaq]

Didn't papa Darwin himself say ''simple single cell'' .. Evolution provides the only excuse for the godless and it is formed to include or exclude as seen to fit . And the more is discovered the farther out in left field and unbelievable evolution becomes , you know this .. God bless you

 

[Milk-Drops]

Didn't papa Darwin himself say ''simple single cell'' ..

He did, but the modern theory of evolution doesn't religiously follow everything Darwin wrote. Darwin put forth some concepts that were either improved through more data or thrown out. Mendel actually changed how many saw Darwin's work and improved on it with his discovery of Genes which Darwin didn't know about. Darwin also didn't know about DNA or RNA which then strengthened Medndel's theories.

Evolution provides the only excuse for the godless and it is formed to include or exclude as seen to fit .

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I originally was a biology major with my interests being in classification systems. The theory of Evolution is nothing more than the explanation on population Mechanics over time. Its not intentionally Godless, its just that the findings have conflicted with many claims by creation based concepts of how organisms are classed and where they came from and how they are related.

And the more is discovered the farther out in left field and unbelievable evolution becomes , you know this .. God bless you

What do you find is a left field claim by the modern theory of evolution?

 

[brujaq]

And it isn't getting better anytime soon for evolution is it ? Reminds me of the ''I love Lucy'' episode where the candy was coming down the line faster than they could pack it . But the creation account is as solid as ever ..God bless you ..

 

[Milk-Drops]

And it isn't getting better anytime soon for evolution is it ? Reminds me of the ''I love Lucy'' episode where the candy was coming down the line faster than they could pack it . But the creation account is as solid as ever ..God bless you ..

I'm not sure what you mean. Science is a constant search for understanding mechanics. It will never truly be finished.

 

[brujaq]

I'm not sure what you mean. Science is a constant search for understanding mechanics. It will never truly be finished.

I love science, I know you do to .. God bless you ..

 

[KevinK]

Hi Kev, have you ever seen some of those numbers after they've tried to be crunched ? God bless you ..

No, sorry, I haven't got the actual numbers. Just an article I read.

 

[Barbarian]

I think evolution is the dumbest thing I've ever considered even though when I was Atheist I believed it and every thing science said about it .

You don't have to remove your brain to be a Christian. Most of us accept that evolution is the way God created the diversity of life on Earth.

Here's my question .. Evolution gets credit for the most remarkable things that God created

That's like saying that light gets credit for the most remarkable things that God created. Turns out, evolution is one of the most remarkable things that God created.

but God tells us where death comes from and why .. Why didn't evolution develop mitochondria and telomeres that beat old age and death

Already there. Bacterial are essentially immortal. No old age.

Life as created by God begins with a couple cells and grows into a mature organism,

Most organisms on Earth don't happen that way. Pretty much limited to eukaryotes.

I mean DNA and cell structures send messages to grow teeth , brains, bones, muscle, eyes and who knows what all else . But we are told why death . OTOH If evolution gets your credit then why couldn't these remarkable organic machines solve and evolve to fix a simple problem like more perfect cell replication ?

Because then, there would be no evolution. And that is not what God intended. It's the imperfection of replication that makes fitness increase in a population. He's a lot smarter than you think He is.

 

[brujaq]

You don't have to remove your brain to be a Christian. Most of us accept that evolution is the way God created the diversity of life on Earth.



That's like saying that light gets credit for the most remarkable things that God created. Turns out, evolution is one of the most remarkable things that God created.



Already there. Bacterial are essentially immortal. No old age.



Most organisms on Earth don't happen that way. Pretty much limited to eukaryotes.



Because then, there would be no evolution. And that is not what God intended. It's the imperfection of replication that makes fitness increase in a population. He's a lot smarter than you think He is.

Remove my brain ? Most of us ? Did Jesus believe in Evolution, I believe he created on the fly .. I'll stick in his company .. God bless you ..

 

[brujaq]

No, sorry, I haven't got the actual numbers. Just an article I read.

That's cool Kev , I've seen numbers so high improbability that they don't even have names for .. As a matter of fact there is a theory that states when the number gets so improbable it becomes statistically impossible . I can't think of the name of it .. I'd post some videos but I can't leave this site then come back to it without logging back in and finding the posts . I'll have to get my son to make my computer like it used to be .. God bless you bro .

 

[Barbarian]

Remove my brain ? Most of us ? Did Jesus believe in Evolution,

I don't see how He couldn't. He made it, after all.

I believe he created on the fly .

The Bible doesn't say so.