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'Death', 'destroy' and 'destruction'

guibox

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There has been so much talk from traditionalists who support the immortality of the soul that the terms 'death', 'destruction' 'perishing', and 'destroy' don't mean 'finality' but simply existence in a corrupt form.

This is necessary to believe to reconcile the doctrine of a) eternal torment with b) the clear and glaring scriptures which speak of the final destuction and annihilation of man.

The Bible is then studied eisegetically instead of exegetically. By starting with the concept a), the traditionalist then interprets b) according to a) instead of exegetically studying the words to see their meanings.

Here they are from the concordance...


death
thanatos - 'death' (used in the NT)

destroy

OT

abad - to destroy
asaph - to gather (in its context means to group together to face their fate 1 Samuel 15:6)
ashem - to make or declare guilty or desolate
bala - to swallow up
garar - to catch, draw, drag (used in its context to imply corruption by something Proverbs 21:7)
dabar - to speak (Youngs makes a note that this is an error in the Hebrew text - 2 Chronicles 22:10)
daka - to bruise
damah - to cut off
hum - to move, destroy
hamam - to move, trouble, crush
harag - to kill
haras - to break or throw down
chabal - to destroy, act wickedly, corrupt
chareb - to make dry, waste
yanah - to oppress, break, thrust out
yarash - to dispossess, take as possession (used in Exodus 15:9)
kalah - to cut off or down
kathath - to beat down or out
megar - to cast down
mul - to end off
muth - to be put to death
machah - to blot out, wipe away
mashchith - destroying, corrupting
nasach - to pull down or away
naqaph - to go or set around , compass (used in its context as worms enveloping Job's body - Job 19:26)
nasham - to blow, destroy, made desolate
nathats - to break down
nathash - to pluck up
saphah - to end, consume
sethar - to hide, destroy
tsamath - to cut off, destroy
qur - to dig down, destroy
shabar - to break, shiver, destroy
shadad - to destroy, to spoil
shoah - wasting, desolation
shachath - to mar, corrupt, destroy
shakol - to bereave
shamad - to destroy, cut off, waste
shamem - to make desolate
charem - to devote to God or destruction
kalah - to finish, consume

NT

appolu - to lose off, away, destroy
diaph - to mar or corrupt thoroughly
exolothreuo - to destroy utterly
kathaireo - to take down
kataluo - to loose down
katargeo - to make of none effect
luo - to loose
olothreuo - to destroy
portheo - to lay waste
phtheiro - to mar, corrupt
_____________________________________

Tradtionalists will take the words:
katargeo - to make of none effect
phtheiro - to mar, corrupt


and make their case that to 'destroy' means to 'grant eternal life in conscious torment'. Unfortunately, they ignore the context in which these words are used, and ignore the nature of the wicked man, and the myriad of texts that say otherwise.
When God says that the wicked will be destroyed, He means it. Rather than take the plain word of God at its face value the tradtionalist rather make 'destroy' mean 'eternal, conscious torment'.

What about the term ‘destruction’?

I looked in the concordance for the word 'destruction' there are 36 uses of it in the whole scriptures (unless you count the similar forms that mean the same)

OT

abad - to be lost
abaddon - destruction
abdan - destruction
ed - vapour, calamity
dakka - contrition (one use in Psalms 90:3, not dealing with the wicked)
harisuth - ruin, breaking or throwin down
heres - breaking, or throwing down
chebel - destruction
chorbah - waste, drought
kid - destruction, misfortune
mehumah - trouble, distruction
mechittah = downfall, ruin
mashshuoth - wastes, desolations
mashchith - marring, destruction
pid - calamity, ruin
qeteb - destruction
qoteb - destruction
qephadah - destruction, cutting off
qerets - destruction, rapid moving
sheiyyah - wasting, desolation
sheber - breaking, breach
shibbaron - breaking
shod - destruction, spoiling
sho - vanity, falsehood
shoah - wasting, destruction
shechith - corruption, destruction
shacath - to mar, corrupt, destroy
shamad - to cutt off, lay waste
tebusah - a treading down
tablith - a wearing out
chaloph - passing on, change (used once in Psalm 31:8)

NT

apoleia - loss (Matthew 7:13; Romans 9:22; Philippians 3:19; 2 Peter 21:1;3:16
kathairesis - a taking down (2 Corinthians 10:8;13:10)
olethros - destruction (1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Timothy 6:9)
suntrimma - a breaking together (Romans 3:16)

The traditionalists will take the translation 'loss' (which can have many different connotations) override all other references to death and destruction concerning the fate of the wicked and make it mean some sort of miserable afterlife of existence. While ignoring the uses of it in its context and in other contexts.

So we see that there is no basis for making these terms in applying to the wicked to mean 'eternal conscious torment'.

The same, then goes for the word 'perish' "appolumi". You cannot take the meaning 'to loose' and apply it for the other words saying the same thing mean finality. 'appolumi' in the meaning of 'destroy' must be used.
 

guibox

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Still waiting why some haven't commented on this matter.

If you believe that these words describe the 'eternal conscious torment of the immortal soul' you need to get around this clear teaaching.

Waiting....
 

guibox

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Still waiting for discussion from some of the traditionalists here.

How do you explain eternal torment when such strong language that means exactly that is prevalent in explaining the punishment of the wicked?
 
B

BradtheImpaler

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guibox said:
Still waiting why some haven't commented on this matter.

If you believe that these words describe the 'eternal conscious torment of the immortal soul' you need to get around this clear teaaching.

Waiting....
Are you trying to spoil it for those who want to believe that those who disagree with them will endure eternal torment? :wink:
 
S

SputnikBoy

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guibox said:
Still waiting for discussion from some of the traditionalists here.

How do you explain eternal torment when such strong language that means exactly that is prevalent in explaining the punishment of the wicked?
Both you and I know that they can't answer your question, guibox ...not effectively anyway. So, don't hold your breath waiting.

Oh dear, are we about to open up a can of worms again ...? That isn't the intention, mods, and, as long as scriptures are presented to support one's 'side' regarding guibox' question, surely we can keep this civil ...?

Note: This thread began before the other was locked.

Can anyone respond to guibox' post with scriptures that refute it?
 

jgredline

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SputnikBoy said:
Both you and I know that they can't answer your question, guibox ...not effectively anyway. So, don't hold your breath waiting.

Oh dear, are we about to open up a can of worms again ...? That isn't the intention, mods, and, as long as scriptures are presented to support one's 'side' regarding guibox' question, surely we can keep this civil ...?

Note: This thread began before the other was locked.

Can anyone respond to guibox' post with scriptures that refute it?

I could answer it, but the thread will get locked..
:roll:
 
S

SputnikBoy

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Darn it! I thought we'd sneaked this thread in under the noses of the mods! Is being sneaky a violation of the TOS ...?
 

mutzrein

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jgredline said:

I could answer it, but the thread will get locked..
:roll:
Surely it won't get locked if the issue is attacked and not the people that hold a contra view.
 
S

SputnikBoy

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mutzrein said:
Surely it won't get locked if the issue is attacked and not the people that hold a contra view.
Right on, mutz. By the way, thanks for the PM.
 

Atonement

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Okay... Everyone wants to discuss this issue.. I'm gonna leave this topic open.. YES I am.. But, I give you a promise, if I see any violations here. IT WILL BE LOCKED and YOU will be WARNED. I'm not gonna babysit kids here, I have my own 5yr daughter for this. Be mature about it, and you can have your thread.... I'M WATCHING IT CLOSEY.. YOU HAVE MY WORD....


Edit: P.S I'm subscribing to this thread. When any response is given, I will be emailed..
 

guibox

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We love you Daddy Atonement... :)

jg, I'd be more than happy to provide you with the verses where these wrods are used in a non-annihilation context. You will see that even though the English says 'destruction', you cannot apply that English word to all instances as sometimes each verse uses a differernt word for 'destruction'.

This is the same situation for the word 'hell'. 'Hell' doesn't take into account that there are 4 words and 3 meanings in the Greek and Hebrew.

Would that help if I presented those verses in their context?

I just want to know if you are willing to listen to the word of God and let the Bible be its own interpreter in this matter.

I can't make it any more clearer than the original language and context of the scriptures.
 

Atonement

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Wow, I'm surprised no body is posting here.. I thought everyone wanted to discuss this issue? Maybe because they know they would be under the microscope (sorta speak)? So could it possibly be true that you guys can not discuss this issue w/o turning it personal?
 

jgredline

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Why Post???
What good will it do when your walking on water?
It really does seem like when you see something that triggers something in you, your response is to lock it. You were doing a good job at first. What happened?

Guibox
If you would like to debate it perhaps we can do it over e mail, otherwise I can't do it here.. The only thing I have going forme is what the bible says and If I can't use that here, then what can I do?
 

golfjack

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reply

Is there something wrong with Preaching and Teaching the Word of Truth? Are we not to correct when there is false Doctrine? Or at least have an opinion, that is one is entitled to his opinion, but not entitled to his own set of facts? The Word is there to correct, and many times I must be corrected to seek out the Truth that can only set us free from the lies of the enemy.



May God bless, golfjack
 

Atonement

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It sounds that you have a personal beef with me.. That's fine.. I did cause havoc here, but for all the right reasons. I'm deeply hurt of what I read in the HELL thread. It saden my heart to an extreme. I sent you a PM and I would hope you respond to it.. God Bless
 

guibox

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jgredline said:
Why Post???

Guibox
If you would like to debate it perhaps we can do it over e mail, otherwise I can't do it here.. The only thing I have going forme is what the bible says and If I can't use that here, then what can I do?
jg, I can't speak for Atonement, but I'm sure that I can speak for Sputnik, Drew and the rest when I say that it was not you that caused the thread to be shut down but others who had nothing better to say but condemn us to 'hell' for following our 'father' the 'father of lies'. If the rest of your crew had behaved like you, the thread most likely would have still been opened.

Atonement has not put a ban on discussing this topic AT ALL (like the current ban on universalism) and we should be thankful for that.

Anyway, folks, if you have a problem with Atonement or the rules of this forum, take it up with him on a PM and don't hijack the original post of this thread.

The thread is: how can one believe that 'destroy', 'destruction' and 'death' are used to mean 'eternal conscious torment' when the very nature and usage of the words in the Bible make it clear?

(BTW, have any of ou read 'Immortality or Resurrection of the Body' by evangelical scholar, Oscar Cullman? It is one of the best I have ever read...jg, I would encourage you (and anybody else) to PM me if you want it in Word format. Then if you can argue still against the wicked not being destroyed, there would be nothing more for me to say... :)
 

jgredline

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Guibox
Thanks for the post.
I would love nothing better than to debate you on this, but right now I am going to chill a bit. After having two of my post locked and another deleated and still another locked that started all of this, I need to relax. I fot the life of me don't see what I did wrong, but it is what it is...
Blessings my friend,
Javier
 
S

SputnikBoy

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jgredline said:
Guibox
Thanks for the post.
I would love nothing better than to debate you on this, but right now I am going to chill a bit. After having two of my post locked and another deleated and still another locked that started all of this, I need to relax. I fot the life of me don't see what I did wrong, but it is what it is...
Blessings my friend,
Javier
I can understand your frustration, jg, and I'm sure we all realise that your wanting to 'cool it' for a while is quite natural.
 
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