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Bible Study Desire for an Easy Religion ?

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Jay T

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The desire for an easy religion that requires no striving, no self-denial, no divorce from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of faith, and faith only, a popular doctrine; but what saith the word of God?
Says the apostle James: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?
can faith save him? . . .
Wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? . . .
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:14-24.

The testimony of the word of God is against this ensnaring doctrine of faith without works. It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions upon which mercy is to be granted, it is presumption; for genuine faith has its foundation in the promises and provisions of the Scriptures.

Let none deceive themselves with the belief that they can become holy while willfully violating one of God's requirements.
The commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit and separates the soul from God. "Sin is the transgression of the law."
And "whosoever sinneth [transgresseth the law] hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:6. Though John in his epistles dwells so fully upon love, yet he does not hesitate to reveal the true character of that class who claim to be sanctified while living in transgression of the law of God.

"He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected." 1 John 2:4, 5. Here is the test of every man's profession. We cannot accord holiness to any man without bringing him to the measurement of God's only standard of holiness in heaven and in earth.

If men feel no weight of the moral law, if they belittle and make light of God's precepts, if they break one of the least of these commandments, and teach men so, they shall be of no esteem in the sight of Heaven, and we may know that their claims are without foundation.
My mission, is to help Christians, pass God's Judgment Day:
".. judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it [first begin] at us ...And if the righteous scarcely be saved.....(1 Peter 4:17,18).
 
Dude, you're a moderator, so you of all people should know that when one topic dies, that doesn't mean you should go and start another topic about it. As for the issue at hand, if you are going to continue to make the sacrafice of Christ seem insufficient by disregarding the countless verses which state we are justified through faith and not works, then that is your choice.
 
element80 said:
Dude, you're a moderator, so you of all people should know that when one topic dies, that doesn't mean you should go and start another topic about it. As for the issue at hand, if you are going to continue to make the sacrafice of Christ seem insufficient by disregarding the countless verses which state we are justified through faith and not works, then that is your choice.
How many years did Noah preach about the flood, that was to come ?

120 years ?

How many people, were saved out of that preaching ?

Matthew 24:37 "But as the days of Noah [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


The Mark of the Beast scenerio....is the (symbolic) flood, that is to come in our day.
 
So what you're saying is that those of us who believe versus like Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are all going to receive the mark of the Beast and suffer in hell for all eternity?
 
element80 said:
So what you're saying is that those of us who believe versus like Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are all going to receive the mark of the Beast and suffer in hell for all eternity?
No, those who truely understand those Bible verses have the truths that will save their lives !

But, the vast majority of the Christian world is being taught 'not' the correct understanding of those verses, which should be self evident because the Christian world uses those Bible verses, to ignore God's commandments.
 
element80 said:
so then what do you think those verse mean?
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God".
Now, to understand what this really means....we need to look at HOW, the Bible....defines the words: grace, and faith.
Because, the reason the Christian world does not understand what this Bible verse really means, is because too many people place their own interpretation, upon God's words, instead of letting God defines the words, grace and faith.

First definition: GRACE: Romans 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name".
Did you get that ?

Look at it again...."received grace....for obedience....to the faith.

Let's look at another Bible verse, which shows what the word: Grace means.....
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world".

Did you get that ?

look closely...."grace of God ....TEACHING US....we should live godly and righteously....in this PRESENT WORLD "

The words grace and obedience could be, used interchangably.

Let's try it with Ephesians 2:8.....
Ephesians 2:8 "For by 'obedience' are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God".
This makes sense in light of the rest....of the context of the scripture, which reads as....
Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".
created in Christ...unto good works....that we should walk in them
*************************************************************

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; It merely means that No ONe can....do any Righteous works in own Human strenght.

And, Titus 3:5 balances perfectly, with Ephesians 2:8-10
 
Jay T said:
element80 said:
so then what do you think those verse mean?
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God".
Now, to understand what this really means....we need to look at HOW, the Bible....defines the words: grace, and faith.
Because, the reason the Christian world does not understand what this Bible verse really means, is because too many people place their own interpretation, upon God's words, instead of letting God defines the words, grace and faith.

First definition: GRACE: Romans 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name".
Did you get that ?

Look at it again...."received grace....for obedience....to the faith.

it says "for obedience" not "which is obedience." This verse is saying that because of grace, we have obedience to the faith, it is not saying they are one and the same.

JayT said:
Let's look at another Bible verse, which shows what the word: Grace means.....
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world".

Did you get that ?

look closely...."grace of God ....TEACHING US....we should live godly and righteously....in this PRESENT WORLD "

this verse says that grace teaches us to live this way. Again, it is not equating grace with righteous living.

JayT said:
The words grace and obedience could be, used interchangably.

If this is the case, then let's look at it in some other verses (I'll even quote them in KJV for you):

Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

obedience of God? Who is God being obedient too?

Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his [God's] grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

again, God's obedience?

do a keyword search of "grace" on Bible Gateway and look for all it's uses through out the NT

JayT said:
Let's try it with Ephesians 2:8.....
Ephesians 2:8 "For by 'obedience' are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God".
This makes sense in light of the rest....of the context of the scripture, which reads as....
Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast.

let's look at the phrase "[it is] a gift of God." What is a gift of God? The "it" is referring to grace. Take a look at Romans 5:12-6:11 and how it relates grace to a gift. It's a long passage, so I'm only going to quote certain parts.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Do you see what the gift is? It's justification and rigteousness. This gift is recieved through grace. If grace meant obedience, then we wouldn't need to be given justification and righteousness, we would be earning it through our obedience.

Getting back to Ephesians 2:8-10, let's look at the "not of works" part. God commands us to do certain things. When we are obedient, we go out and do these things. The acts that we do out of obedience are our good works. How then can we be saved "through obedience", but "not of works"? With obedience comes good works, and good works come only through obedience. The two cannot be seperated.


JayT said:
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".
created in Christ...unto good works....that we should walk in them
*************************************************************

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; It merely means that No ONe can....do any Righteous works in own Human strenght.

And, Titus 3:5 balances perfectly, with Ephesians 2:8-10

"works of righteousness" and "good works" are essentially the same thing, so you can apply what I said above here too.

*************************************************************

Getting back to the passage from Romans, let's take a look at 6:1.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

In saying this, Paul implies that continuing to sin will, in fact, cause grace to abound. Otherewise, he would not have stated it in this manner. How can one who is continually sinning have an abundance of obedience? One who is sinning is lacking obedience to God, not abounding in it. In light of this, there is no possible way that grace can mean obedience.

What then is grace? Looking back at the end of Romans 5, as well as at Ephasians 2, we see that grace is God giving us the gift of righteousness and justification. That is how the Bible defines grace.
 
element80 said:
What then is grace? Looking back at the end of Romans 5, as well as at Ephasians 2, we see that grace is God giving us the gift of righteousness and justification. That is how the Bible defines grace.

Sanctification is obtained only in obedience to the will of God.

Many who are willfully trampling upon the law of Jehovah claim holiness of heart and sanctification of life. But they have not a saving knowledge of God or of His law.
They are standing in the ranks of the great rebel. He is at war with the law of God, which is the foundation of the divine government in heaven and in the earth(Revelation 12:17).
These men are doing the same work as their master has done in seeking to make of none effect God's holy law.

No commandment-breaker can be permitted to enter heaven; for he who was once a pure and exalted covering cherub was thrust out for rebelling against the government of God (Revelation 22:14).

With many, sanctification is only self-righteousness. And yet these persons boldly claim Jesus as their Saviour and Sanctifier. What a delusion! Will the Son of God sanctify the transgressor of the Father's law--that law which Christ came to exalt and make honorable? He testifies, "I have kept My Father's commandments."
God will not bring His law down to meet the imperfect standard of man; and man cannot meet the demands of that holy law without exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

"If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1). But God has not given His Son to a life of suffering and ignominy and a shameful death to release man from obedience to the divine law. So great is the deceptive power of Satan that many have been led to regard the atonement of Christ as of no real value. Christ died because there was no other hope for the transgressor. He might try to keep God's law in the future; but the debt which he had incurred in the past remained, and the law must condemn him to death. Christ came to pay that debt for the sinner which it was impossible for him to pay for himself. Thus, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, sinful man was granted another trial.

Satan's Sophistry

It is the sophistry of Satan that the death of Christ brought in grace to take the place of the law. The death of Jesus did not change or annul or lessen in the slightest degree the law of Ten Commandments. That precious grace offered to men through a Saviour's blood establishes the law of God. Since the fall of man, God's moral government and His grace are inseparable. They go hand in hand through all dispensations. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other" (Psalm 85:10).

Jesus, our Substitute, consented to bear for man the penalty of the law transgressed. He clothed His divinity with humanity and thus became the Son of man, a Saviour and Redeemer. The very fact of the death of God's dear Son to redeem man shows the immutability of the divine law. How easily, from the transgressor's standpoint, could God have abolished His law, thus providing a way whereby men could be saved and Christ remain in heaven!

The doctrine which teaches freedom, through grace, to break the law is a fatal delusion. Every transgressor of God's law is a sinner, and none can be sanctified while living in known sin.

The condescension and agony of God's dear Son were not endured to purchase for man liberty to transgress the Father's law and yet sit down with Christ in His throne. It was that through His merits and the exercise of repentance and faith the most guilty sinner might receive pardon and obtain strength to live a life of obedience. The sinner is not saved in his sins, but from his sins.


What Sin Is

The soul must first be convicted of sin before the sinner will feel a desire to come to Christ. "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). "I had not known sin, but by the law" (Romans 7:7). When the commandment came home to Saul's conscience, sin revived, and he died. He saw himself condemned by the law of God.

The sinner cannot be convinced of his guilt unless he understands what constitutes sin. It is impossible for an individual to experience Bible sanctification while he holds that if he believes in Christ it is immaterial whether he obeys God's law or disobeys it.

Those who profess to keep the law of God and yet at heart are indulging in sin are condemned by the True Witness. They claim to be rich in a knowledge of the truth; but they are not in harmony with its sacred principles. The truth does not sanctify their lives. God's Word declares that the professed commandment-keeper whose life contradicts his faith is blind, wretched, poor, and naked.

God's law is the mirror presenting a complete reflection of the man as he is, and holding up before him the correct likeness. Some will turn away and forget this picture, while others will employ abusive epithets against the law, as though this would cure their defects of character. Still others who are condemned by the law will repent of their transgressions and, through faith in Christ's merits, will perfect Christian character.
 
Judging by your use of the word "grace" in the last post, I assume you've come to realize the true meaning of the word. Am I right?

Other then in your defining of sin, you gave very little scripture that supports what you said. The verses that you did give did not seem to relate with what you were saying very much, if at all. Care to provide more verses?
 
element80 said:
Judging by your use of the word "grace" in the last post, I assume you've come to realize the true meaning of the word. Am I right?

Other then in your defining of sin, you gave very little scripture that supports what you said. The verses that you did give did not seem to relate with what you were saying very much, if at all. Care to provide more verses?
The grace of God is needed, to enable anyone, to keep God's 10 commandments.

God's true people, pointed out in Revelation 14:12 had to have the grace of God to become the saints.....
"Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

These people have overcome sin...in their lives, or it could not be said that they keep the commandments of God.
And, having the faith of Jesus, provided the grace to become what God wants people to become.
 
The grace of God is needed, to enable anyone, to keep God's 10 commandments.

God's true people, pointed out in Revelation 14:12 had to have the grace of God to become the saints.....
"Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

These people have overcome sin...in their lives, or it could not be said that they keep the commandments of God.
And, having the faith of Jesus, provided the grace to become what God wants people to become.[/quote]

Alas, it appears as though my assumptions are incorrect. Even with all that I showed you in one of my previous posts, you still think grace has anything to do with obedience? Adn that verse you gave has nothing to do with who gets into heaven. It's merely calling for patience from the saints in regards to those who are condemned for worshiping the Beast. You are right, though, in the fact that grace is what enables us to obey God. Have you any verses that, when kept in context of both the passage and the entire Bible, support your arguments?
 
element80 said:
The grace of God is needed, to enable anyone, to keep God's 10 commandments.

you still think grace has anything to do with obedience?
Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace ....for obedience ....to the faith among all nations, for his name:
 
Ok, I worded that wrong. What it should have said was "You think grace and obedience are interchageable?" It is because of grace that we are able to be obedient, but it is not equal with obedience.
 
element80 said:
Ok, I worded that wrong. What it should have said was "You think grace and obedience are interchageable?" It is because of grace that we are able to be obedient, but it is equal with obedience.
Without God's grace....NO ONE, can obey God's commandments !

The Bible is the standard by which to test the claims of all who profess sanctification. Jesus prayed that His disciples might be sanctified through the truth, and He says, "Thy word is truth" (John 17:17); while the psalmist declares, "Thy law is the truth" (Psalm 119:142).
All whom God is leading will manifest a high regard for the Scriptures in which His voice is heard. The Bible will be to them "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:16). "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16).

We need no other evidence in order to judge of men's sanctification; if they are fearful lest they shall not obey the whole will of God, if they are listening diligently to His voice, trusting in His wisdom, and making His Word the man of their counsel, then, while they make no boasts of superior goodness, we may be sure that they are seeking to attain to perfection of Christian character. But if the claimants of holiness even intimate that they are no longer required to search the Scriptures, we need not hesitate to pronounce their sanctification spurious. They are leaning to their own understanding instead of conforming to the will of God.

What God Requires

God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair in Eden--perfect obedience to His requirements. His law remains the same in all ages. The great standard of righteousness presented in the Old Testament is not lowered in the New. It is not the work of the gospel to weaken the claims of God's holy law but to bring men up where they can keep its precepts.

The faith in Christ that saves the soul is not what it is represented to be by many. "Believe, believe," is their cry; "only believe in Christ, and you will be saved. It is all you have to do." While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God. Faith is manifested by works.
And the apostle John declares, "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:4).

It is unsafe to trust to feelings or impressions; these are unreliable guides. God's law is the only correct standard of holiness. It is by this law that character is to be judged.
If an inquirer after salvation were to ask, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" the modern teachers of sanctification would answer, "Only believe that Jesus saves you."
But when Christ was asked this question He said, "What is written in the law? how readest thou?"
 
I edited my previous post, because I left out an important word. the last line should have read "It is because of grace that we are able to be obedient, but it is NOT equal with obedience."

Why are you getting into the subject of sanctification? I thought we were talking about grace and the fact that trusting Christ is all we need to do to get into heaven. I agree that as Christians God wants us to obey Him, but it is not a requirement.
 
element80 said:
Why are you getting into the subject of sanctification? I thought we were talking about grace and the fact that trusting Christ is all we need to do to get into heaven. I agree that as Christians God wants us to obey Him, but it is not a requirement.
Then how do you explain the Bible verse:
"Blessed are they that do God's commandments, that they have the right to the tree of life, and may enter into the gates of the City of God", (Revelation 22:14)

As for grace and sacntification......it requires the grace of God, to 'have' sanctification experience in the life.
 
it says that those who keep God's commandments will be blessed, and they will be. It doesn't say anything about people who don't.
 
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