Do Denominational Differences Really Matter?

[Jim Parker]

Seventh Day Adventists started (I think) with some mid-1800s speculation on the end times. I don't know that I'd call it a cult, but I do think they're in error.

The SDA are a spin-off of the "New Advent" movement of the mid 1800s. There was an expectation in both Europe and the USA that Jesus would return in 1844 based on multiple scholars calculating when the "70 weeks" would end. When Jesus didn't show as predicted, they recalculated and "found an error in their calculations." It was supposed be a bit later. When Jesus didn't show the second time, William Miller, the most prominent leader of the movement in the USA (his followers were called "Millerites") declared that the error was i trying to fix a date for Jesus' return.

Ellen G. White picked up on the excuse that the error was the Jesus wasn't coming to the earth in 1844; no, HE was going into the "Heavenly Tabernacle" to read the books and find out who was saved and who wasn't. (Apparently, God the Son, was ignorant in this area rather than His normal omniscience.) Ellen White called this reading of the books, "The Investigative Judgment" and SDA members are told that Jesus is still at it 172 years later.

She also declared that she was the sole possessor of the "Spirit of Prophesy" and, as such, predicted another return of Jesus in the 1880s.(date?) The fact that He, once again, failed to show up, thus proving her to be a false prophetess, did not seem to be a problem for any of her followers. They just assert that she really didn't say what she really did say.

While the do not deny the Trinity in so many words, I have been told by a devout SDA that the Holy Spirit is "God's breath" and that Jesus is also Michael the Archangel.

They also teach "soul sleep", that the soul and the body are the same thing, that people do not go to hell for eternity but are instantly incinerated and reduced to ashes, that God (the father) has a body, and Jesus is coming back two more times. Alot of this transferred to their spin-off religion, the Jehovah's Witnesses.

They also have silly teachings like:
1. The Pope controls all denominations and governments in the world.
2. All denominations and all national leaders are under the control of the Roman Catholic Church.
3. There are many other worlds in the universe where there was no “fall” and the people from those worlds meet with and talk with God.
4. Everything the RCC does is corrupt, false, evil, wicked, mean and nasty. (A lot of people in this forum believe that too but it's pretty silly anyway.)
5. "Sunday-Keeping" will be enforced by all the governments of the world at the command of the Pope. The first violation (by going to meetin' on Saturday) will be punished by a reduction in rations and the second violation will be punishable by death.

Does that make them a cult?

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

The SDA are a spin-off of the "New Advent" movement of the mid 1800s. There was an expectation in both Europe and the USA that Jesus would return in 1844 based on multiple scholars calculating when the "70 weeks" would end. When Jesus didn't show as predicted, they recalculated and "found an error in their calculations." It was supposed be a bit later. When Jesus didn't show the second time, William Miller, the most prominent leader of the movement in the USA (his followers were called "Millerites") declared that the error was i trying to fix a date for Jesus' return.

Ellen G. White picked up on the excuse that the error was the Jesus wasn't coming to the earth in 1844; no, HE was going into the "Heavenly Tabernacle" to read the books and find out who was saved and who wasn't. (Apparently, God the Son, was ignorant in this area rather than His normal omniscience.) Ellen White called this reading of the books, "The Investigative Judgment" and SDA members are told that Jesus is still at it 172 years later.

She also declared that she was the sole possessor of the "Spirit of Prophesy" and, as such, predicted another return of Jesus in the 1880s.(date?) The fact that He, once again, failed to show up, thus proving her to be a false prophetess, did not seem to be a problem for any of her followers. They just assert that she really didn't say what she really did say.

While the do not deny the Trinity in so many words, I have been told by a devout SDA that the Holy Spirit is "God's breath" and that Jesus is also Michael the Archangel.

They also teach "soul sleep", that the soul and the body are the same thing, that people do not go to hell for eternity but are instantly incinerated and reduced to ashes, that God (the father) has a body, and Jesus is coming back two more times. Alot of this transferred to their spin-off religion, the Jehovah's Witnesses.

They also have silly teachings like:
1. The Pope controls all denominations and governments in the world.
2. All denominations and all national leaders are under the control of the Roman Catholic Church.
3. There are many other worlds in the universe where there was no “fall” and the people from those worlds meet with and talk with God.
4. Everything the RCC does is corrupt, false, evil, wicked, mean and nasty. (A lot of people in this forum believe that too but it's pretty silly anyway.)
5. "Sunday-Keeping" will be enforced by all the governments of the world at the command of the Pope. The first violation (by going to meetin' on Saturday) will be punished by a reduction in rations and the second violation will be punishable by death.

Does that make them a cult?

Matthew 24:26

How many dates and predictions of Christ return have people made up. Im sure the above verse can also goes for false prophets giving a date of Christs return.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Hi K2, There is a reason the Spirit says to "earnestly contend for the faith". Earnestly, means with VIGOR, INTENSE, SERIOUS Convictions. The Scriptures call it the "Doctrine of God" and "Doctrine of Christ" (Titus 2:10) (Heb. 6:1). All of 1&2 Timothy , Titus and Hebrews, With Galatians and Ephesians are all about correct doctrine. But Correct doctrine is not about words, it is about Spiritual warfare to the path that leads to "HOME" (Eph. 6:10-18) (2 Cor. 10:1-5)
Christ chastises and warns the Churches in Revelation (study and take note), He also says what is praise worthy. Spiritual warfare can not be fought until one is born again, with out rebirth, you are fighting with and against flesh and blood that causes wars of nations. Faith alone is the only way to God through Jesus Christ. By "faith", the most fallible and weak believer has the same standing before God as the most illustrious saint. Faith alone confers our standing with God. Prayer, good works, church going, none of these things add in the least to our standing with God. Of course, our state is another matter, We are not as instantly mature in the faith as we are secured in our salvation.
Worshiping Christ as just a good man, or praying to canonized saints by man to answer prayer, other than Christ, and doing good work to keep your salvation....or being able to lose your salvation are all denominational differences in how man presents Christ. There are tares among the wheat. The born again believer knows the difference and defends the faith. Apathy is sinful also. We all believe in different god's to achieve the same thing is false and a doctrine of Satan, yet that is what the rulers of this age are pushing. I warn you, it is a path to destruction!

In Christ
Douglas Summers

We need to absolutely content for the faith! But what does that mean? We can say that and still have a poor understanding.

Our faith is in Jesus Christ. Those that know Him hear from Him, just as it is written, " His sheep hear HIs voice." But He also said He had sheep in other flocks and they He was bringing them also. So how much have we been listening to Him if we think we are the only flock being brought to the one flock?

Jn 10:16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

And concerning the tares, is that referring to denominations or people in the denominations? Isn't it mentioned that the tares grow up with the good seed?

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest:

So the tares is with you, not in another denominations!

Then there is something about confessing Jesus Christ is Lord. Which denominations are doing that? We have Christian denominations, and just because they don't worship the Lord according to my tradition, that does not mean they don't worship the Lord Jesus Christ.

So can a church, or denomination, worship Jesus Christ and still be making mistakes. We know they do. Sometimes it is the effect of tares in their field, but don't think you don't have them at what ever church you are in. Certainly we have read the Scriptures and seen the problems of the different churches.

Rev 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love

That was written to one of the churches.

Rev 2:14... because you have there some who hold the teachings of Balaam

That was written to another of the churches

Rev 2:20 you tolerate the woman Jezebel

And that to another of the churches still.

So I can not conclude a denomination is not Christian just because I can find a fault in it!! There are books on cults, and it seems some are simply ridiculous, but others seem to have it pretty well thought threw. I guess that can be said about people also. I can not condone all the actions I see at my church, though it is clear many their know the Lord personally. My church is a large Charismatic church, and I love it. Still the Charismatic churches are a recent denomination and so are even the Protestant churches, if you take history into consideration. Christianity has been 2 thousand years since the Lord rose from the grave and whatever Protestant denomination a person might be in has only been around not even a third of that time. Yes, I can find fault with other denomination and that includes the Catholic church, but where would Christianity be today if the Catholic church had not been around?

 

[Douglas Summers]

Jn 10:16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Christ came to the Lost Sheep Of Israel as the Son of David, the Promised Son of David according to the Flesh. This is a Doctrine of the Bible. I can give you all the Scripture of this promise of God to Israel....But very few will study it, nor will the except it for their own teachings. When Israel rejected the Son of David (Christ) their King, The Kingdom was postponed. Christ called the other sheep (The Gentile), not other denominations, so to make out of the two men that were separated by the enmity and the Law of ordinances that separated the two to make out of them, one new man. (Eph. 2:14-22) This was to be the out calling of the Church.

And concerning the tares, is that referring to denominations or people in the denominations? Isn't it mentioned that the tares grow up with the good seed? The tares are those in the Church that are not born again (those that look like Christians, but poison the Gospel) A Tare comes from a Darnell seed. When it sprouts, it looks just like wheat. You can not tell the difference until it is mature, The Tares are poisonous. It is the Lord's angels that will separate them.

Then there is something about confessing Jesus Christ is Lord. Which denominations are doing that? We have Christian denominations, and just because they don't worship the Lord according to my tradition, that does not mean they don't worship the Lord Jesus Christ. Many shall say to me Lord, Lord,...but I do not know them (Luke 13:25-30) Going to Church or quoting a few Scriptures is not salvation. Neither is being sorry for what you did...it may lead to salvation, but it is not salvation in it self. Judas was sorry for betraying Christ...but he was not saved.

Do a concise study of Catholicism. History and it's popes and decide for yourself'

As far as the Gospel goes,I have no Catholic friends, nor any Mormon, JW, C of C. I have those friends as far as the flesh (day to day life and work) But not in the Gospel, For there is only one Gospel of God in Jesus Christ. If one has hope fellowship in his denomination, he probably does not understand the whole of Scripture, just a few verses and the teachings of his denomination. Be graceful to everyone, not mechanical, but by rebirth.

 

[Jim Parker]

Matthew 24:26
How many dates and predictions of Christ return have people made up. Im sure the above verse can also goes for false prophets giving a date of Christs return.

Telling people when Jesus is going to come fills the pews and the offering baskets.
Telling people they need to repent, fast, pray, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. empties churches quicker than turning a snake loose in the middle of the service.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Christ came to the Lost Sheep Of Israel as the Son of David, the Promised Son of David according to the Flesh. This is a Doctrine of the Bible. I can give you all the Scripture of this promise of God to Israel....But very few will study it, nor will the except it for their own teachings. When Israel rejected the Son of David (Christ) their King, The Kingdom was postponed. Christ called the other sheep (The Gentile), not other denominations, so to make out of the two men that were separated by the enmity and the Law of ordinances that separated the two to make out of them, one new man. (Eph. 2:14-22) This was to be the out calling of the Church.

And concerning the tares, is that referring to denominations or people in the denominations? Isn't it mentioned that the tares grow up with the good seed? The tares are those in the Church that are not born again (those that look like Christians, but poison the Gospel) A Tare comes from a Darnell seed. When it sprouts, it looks just like wheat. You can not tell the difference until it is mature, The Tares are poisonous. It is the Lord's angels that will separate them.

Then there is something about confessing Jesus Christ is Lord. Which denominations are doing that? We have Christian denominations, and just because they don't worship the Lord according to my tradition, that does not mean they don't worship the Lord Jesus Christ. Many shall say to me Lord, Lord,...but I do not know them (Luke 13:25-30) Going to Church or quoting a few Scriptures is not salvation. Neither is being sorry for what you did...it may lead to salvation, but it is not salvation in it self. Judas was sorry for betraying Christ...but he was not saved.

Do a concise study of Catholicism. History and it's popes and decide for yourself'

As far as the Gospel goes,I have no Catholic friends, nor any Mormon, JW, C of C. I have those friends as far as the flesh (day to day life and work) But not in the Gospel, For there is only one Gospel of God in Jesus Christ. If one has hope fellowship in his denomination, he probably does not understand the whole of Scripture, just a few verses and the teachings of his denomination. Be graceful to everyone, not mechanical, but by rebirth.

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life, it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

God gave His only begotten Son, and it is written that who ever believes in Him will have eternal life. We sometimes forget that and start making it about knowing the Scriptures instead of making it about knowing Him like the Scriptures explain.

Is our doctrine a "doctrine of the Bible" or a "doctrine of God'?

We do see that Jesus stated "Many shall say to me Lord, Lord... but I do not know them. If we do know Jesus and talk to Him, how could we think "doctrine of the Bible". We should personally know that it is our Lord's doctrine, that we should come to know Him, but I find people in my charismatic church that don't know Him. Often they are in high positions. And that includes other denominations too. I once talked to a Baptist pastor of a church tell me that He had only heard the small voice of the Lord twice in His entire life. So am I going to judge a church simply by how often their pastor hears from the Lord. I don't do that anymore, and if we did study the Scriptures didn't we see that while Simeon and Anna knew the Jesus was the Christ even though He was a babe, the leaders at that time didn't know Him. That didn't mean the Jews weren't His people. He said He came to the Jews first. So I am not going to condemn the whole Catholic church because of their leaders. It's like saying that because the Pharisees didn't know the Lord nobody at that time did. You would be wrong!!!

And as far a bit of history. You ignore completely that it was the Catholic church (regardless of their Pope) spread Christianity through most of the world! I don't agree with many of their traditions, but some know Him and God still uses them. For example a Protestant preacher named Charles Parham started a little something about 1900 in Topeka, Kansas. He had a prayer tower and the gift of tongues came back. From there he went to Huston and out of that came a man called Seymour which lead the Azusa street revival. Yet Parham went to a city call Zion Ill which John Alexander Dowe had built under his Christian Catholic Church. Out of Parham's revival at the Christian Catholic city of Zion came many of the prominent leaders of the Pentecostal movement like John G. Lake. And there is a Charismatic Catholic movement to this day.

So as far as condemning denominations because of certain people in their denomination or by our understanding of the Scriptures instead of our understanding obtain through a personal relationship with the Lord is problematic.

I have a problem when I see someone write " If one has hope fellowship in his denomination, he probably does not understand the whole of Scripture". Does that person really understand the "whole Scriptures"? Only God has that understanding. I wonder how that was not made clear to them when the started talking and hearing from the Lord regularly. Everyday the Lord shows gives me new teachings and understanding. So I think that must be happening with everyone that knows the Lord. So I don't see how they couldn't think they "understand the whole of Scriptures". Did Jesus Christ even think like that?

Phil 2:6 Christ Jesus, who although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.

And as far as fellowship. God made the whole world. It might not be wise to fellowship with everyone, but Jesus talked with tax collectors, harlots, and the people in general. It was the religious leaders (who knew the Scriptures but not Him) that promoted his capture and execution.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life, it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

God gave His only begotten Son, and it is written that who ever believes in Him will have eternal life. We sometimes forget that and start making it about knowing the Scriptures instead of making it about knowing Him like the Scriptures explain.

Is our doctrine a "doctrine of the Bible" or a "doctrine of God'?

We do see that Jesus stated "Many shall say to me Lord, Lord... but I do not know them. If we do know Jesus and talk to Him, how could we think "doctrine of the Bible". We should personally know that it is our Lord's doctrine, that we should come to know Him, but I find people in my charismatic church that don't know Him. Often they are in high positions. And that includes other denominations too. I once talked to a Baptist pastor of a church tell me that He had only heard the small voice of the Lord twice in His entire life. So am I going to judge a church simply by how often their pastor hears from the Lord. I don't do that anymore, and if we did study the Scriptures didn't we see that while Simeon and Anna knew the Jesus was the Christ even though He was a babe, the leaders at that time didn't know Him. That didn't mean the Jews weren't His people. He said He came to the Jews first. So I am not going to condemn the whole Catholic church because of their leaders. It's like saying that because the Pharisees didn't know the Lord nobody at that time did. You would be wrong!!!

And as far a bit of history. You ignore completely that it was the Catholic church (regardless of their Pope) spread Christianity through most of the world! I don't agree with many of their traditions, but some know Him and God still uses them. For example a Protestant preacher named Charles Parham started a little something about 1900 in Topeka, Kansas. He had a prayer tower and the gift of tongues came back. From there he went to Huston and out of that came a man called Seymour which lead the Azusa street revival. Yet Parham went to a city call Zion Ill which John Alexander Dowe had built under his Christian Catholic Church. Out of Parham's revival at the Christian Catholic city of Zion came many of the prominent leaders of the Pentecostal movement like John G. Lake. And there is a Charismatic Catholic movement to this day.

So as far as condemning denominations because of certain people in their denomination or by our understanding of the Scriptures instead of our understanding obtain through a personal relationship with the Lord is problematic.

I have a problem when I see someone write " If one has hope fellowship in his denomination, he probably does not understand the whole of Scripture". Does that person really understand the "whole Scriptures"? Only God has that understanding. I wonder how that was not made clear to them when the started talking and hearing from the Lord regularly. Everyday the Lord shows gives me new teachings and understanding. So I think that must be happening with everyone that knows the Lord. So I don't see how they couldn't think they "understand the whole of Scriptures". Did Jesus Christ even think like that?

Phil 2:6 Christ Jesus, who although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.

And as far as fellowship. God made the whole world. It might not be wise to fellowship with everyone, but Jesus talked with tax collectors, harlots, and the people in general. It was the religious leaders (who knew the Scriptures but not Him) that promoted his capture and execution.

What happened to the "like" button?????!

 

[Jim Parker]

How many dates and predictions of Christ return have people made up.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, following the lead of E. G. White, have made 5 such predictions of His return between 1875 and 1975. They seem to have quit. Perhaps they realized that 5 false prophesied could raise an eyebrow or two but, apparently, not among the true believers.

They also built a completely furnished mansion in San Diego, Ca. for the patriarchs and prophets whom they said would soon be resurrected. There was also a Cadillac coupe for their use. (Did Abraham have a California driver's license?)

Beth Sarim (Hebrew בית שרים "House of the Princes") is a ten-bedroom mansion in San Diego, California, constructed in 1929 in anticipation of various resurrected Old Testament biblical patriarchs or prophets such as Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah and Samuel. It was maintained by the Watch Tower Society, the parent organization used by Jehovah's Witnesses, and was also used as a winter home and executive office for Watch Tower president Joseph Franklin Rutherford. The house was sold to a private owner in 1948.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_Sarim
View attachment 8941

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think...God loves and blesses us as individuals despite our flaws, fallen nature, ongoing sins and sin patterns. Why shouldn't he do the same for well-intentioned denominations who have some errors? (not thinking of jehovah's witnesses or mormons or sda here...).

 

[Jim Parker]

I think...God loves and blesses us as individuals despite our flaws, fallen nature, ongoing sins and sin patterns. Why shouldn't he do the same for well-intentioned denominations who have some errors? (not thinking of jehovah's witnesses or mormons or sda here...).

Go ahead and think JWs, Mormons, and SDA. Pray that in their quest to serve God they have a personal encounter with Jesus.

iakov the fool

 

[Christ_empowered]

valid point.

 

[Malachi]

Why shouldn't he do the same for well-intentioned denominations who have some errors? (

Well the mainline denominations took the route of theological (and social and political) liberalism, so that is more than "some errors". Christ does not tolerate false doctrine or false practice (see Revelation 1-3) but only He is the supreme judge of every church and every denomination. Our job is to keep our house in order, and not be affiliated with those who have another Jesus, another Gospel, and another Bible.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Is our doctrine a "doctrine of the Bible" or a "doctrine of God'?

They are inseparable. (Matt. 5:17-20) The Bible is the Doctrine of God (1 Tim. 6:1) in Jesus Christ, from Creation, to Sin, to Salvation, and last, Recreation. It is not Bible Doctrine, it is the Doctrine of Christ. ( Heb. 6:1) (2 John 9) (The Epistle of Titus) You can't have one with out the other. The problem comes when one (by pride) Usurps Christ authority and intrudes self will into the Sphere of Divine Authority. And since that appeals to the flesh, those that are fleshy follow after them. You can not understand the truth of Scripture by the flesh alone...the Scriptures are also of a Spiritual nature. (1 Cor. 2:9-16)

 

[Douglas Summers]

And as far as fellowship. God made the whole world. It might not be wise to fellowship with everyone, but Jesus talked with tax collectors, harlots, and the people in general. It was the religious leaders (who knew the Scriptures but not Him) that promoted his capture and execution.

That was the purpose of God, to go to the sinners and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom. There is no command to not associate with sinners. We would have to be apart from this world for that to be possible. The position of the Church was one of a priesthood and Sonship and heirs of God to the Throne of God. And It was offered to the Priest and religious leaders who knew the Scriptures and should have heralded in and been witnesses of the Christ, for He came unto His own, (religious leaders) But His own received Him not. (John 1:10-11) They did not want to turn over divine authority to the Christ, but wanted to keep it for them selves. (Matt. 21:33-46) But to those who did receive Him, He gave them power to be Sons of God (John 1:12-13). So Christ called those to inheritance that were not originally intended because The religious leaders rejected Him as King and forfeited their position. (Matt. 21:38-44) Now, there is a command to have NOTHING to do with some one who says he is a brother , who live and practice by the principles of this world...do not even eat with them, (1 Cor. 5:9-13).
God is not saving the world at this time, He is creating His Church (body of believers in His image) The Church is called out by the Lord as Son's of God.(Rom. 8:14-17) And the Gates of Hell can not come against it. The Lord said that, not me. (Matt. 16:13-19) And only the Lord adds to His Church...And once the fullness of the Gentiles have completed the Body of Christ, the body will be complete. (Rom. 11:25) The saving of mankind will be after the Church returns to heaven with the calling of the Lord, Then the multitude of men, that can not be counted, will be save of all nations. (Rev. 7:9-17) This is what The Lord teaches. Man teaches another Gospel. Study the proof Scriptures above...They are clear! I tell you, quit following the Doctrine of men and ask the Lord to lead you to the Truth. If you truly are sincere, everything material that you have put your trust into will be taken from you, till there is nothing left to cling to but the Lord. BTW, The religious leaders of Israel knew the Scriptures, and they also knew that Jesus was the Christ, they just straight out rejected Him to keep their status of importance and praises from the people. (John 3:1-2).

 

[Sinthesis]

Telling people when Jesus is going to come fills the pews and the offering baskets.
Telling people they need to repent, fast, pray, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. empties churches quicker than turning a snake loose in the middle of the service.

Some would say that is why you handle snakes during the service instead of turning them loose.

 

[Jim Parker]

Some would say that is why you handle snakes during the service instead of turning them loose.

HAH! Good one.

 

[Jim Parker]

I think...God loves and blesses us as individuals despite our flaws, fallen nature, ongoing sins and sin patterns. Why shouldn't he do the same for well-intentioned denominations who have some errors? (not thinking of jehovah's witnesses or mormons or sda here...).

Show me a denomination that doesn't have any errors. (the point being, of course, that it's impossible.)

 

[Jim Parker]

We have Christian denominations, and just because they don't worship the Lord according to my tradition, that does not mean they don't worship the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen
Thank you

 

[Barbarian]

I can point you to a SDA on my Home Forum who is the kindest and most stable person posting there.

One of my company's clients was a large SDA organization. I don't agree with very much of their particular beliefs, but I have to admit that the people with whom I worked in that organization, lived their lives as Christians should. And that, I think counts more than being theologically correct, if Jesus is to be believed.

 

[Jim Parker]

lived their lives as Christians should. And that, I think counts more than being theologically correct, if Jesus is to be believed.

I agree