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Bible Study Do we go to heaven as soon as we die?

N

nuta

Guest
I would like some supporting scriptures to this notion.

I am reading verses that say the dead will be raised at the end times & made to face judgement. Why are their souls not in hell or heaven? :-?
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
nuta said:
I would like some supporting scriptures to this notion.

I am reading verses that say the dead will be raised at the end times & made to face judgement. Why are their souls not in hell or heaven? :-?
Sputnik: The Bible (the ONLY source we need to go to for our study) establishes quite clearly that the dead of both pursuasions (the righteous and the unrighteous) are presently 'sleeping' in their graves. Tradition (and tradition only) tells us that the dead are either presently in heaven or hell. To come up with this notion one has to totally ignore every other biblical reference that refutes this.

In mainstream Christianity, tradition RULES! A stick of dynamite won't move most traditionalists. So, good luck with the posters who will attempt to lull you to sleep with fairy stories. They will no doubt offer as evidence for 'instant heaven' ONE misrepresented text from Paul that totally contradicts an established scriptural fact. I implore you to look beyond tradition and seek the facts pertaining to this topic from the scriptures alone.
 

guibox

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
nuta said:
I would like some supporting scriptures to this notion.

I am reading verses that say the dead will be raised at the end times & made to face judgement. Why are their souls not in hell or heaven? :-?
Many people believe that the soul goes to heaven and the body goes to the ground. However, the Bible doesn't teach this. The 'soul' is never considered immortal or eternal in the Bible but part of the whole person.

We see when we really take a step back and look, that the scriptures continually emphasise the resurrection to eternal life. Without it man has no life.

I would suggest you truly look at 1 Corinthians 15 and read the whole chapter. You will see that to Paul, having eternal life meant receiving it at the last days. A resurrection would be redundant if our souls were already living in heaven.

Also look at:

John 5:28,29
John 6:40,47
2 Timothy 4:6-8
Job 14:10-14
Acts 2:34
2 Timothy 4:6-8

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, Paul says to the Christians not to 'sorrow as those who have no hope'. This would make no sense if Paul and the Christians knew our loved ones were in heaven. Rather the hope Paul speaks of is the resurrection. Without it.. there IS no hope! This is why Paul tells them not to sorrow because their loved ones will live again, thanks to the resurrection!

Now some would have you believe that our soul is reunited with our body. However, the Bible does not preach this ANYWHERE in the Bible! Rather it is an assumption to explain why our resurrection bodies seem to be conscious (they 'hear his voice' they are called the 'dead in Christ'). The Bible doesn't support the 'soul/body' dichotomy at the resurrection. It just isn't there.

Take a look on the internet to see what the Reformers William Tyndale and Martin Luther had to say about it. They too believed that the soul wasn't immortal and the resurrection was the only hope of eternal life.

Some of our well meaning folks on this forum will try and throw 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:21 at you as proof that our loved ones are in heaven. However these texts are not as clear cut as they would have you think.

Also if you really look at these verses, nowhere is the soul mentioned or even implied! It is automatically assumed that Paul must be speaking of an immortal soul outside the body. However it is not there! These verses are NOT speaking of a 'soul' living outside the body!

Why? Because Paul preached the WHOLE salvation of man to eternal life.

I have addressed these texts in detail somewhere on the Bible Study forum. Check back three or four pages and you will find them. I encourage you to read them!
 
A

Abiyah

Guest
nuta said:
I would like some supporting scriptures to this notion.

I am reading verses that say the dead will be raised at the end times & made to face judgement. Why are their souls not in hell or heaven? :-?
Hi There Nuta ! lol

This is my understanding of where the souls go once they have departed from the flesh body; for the flesh body in which our inner being resides, which is to say the soul, is only a tempory dwelling place for our souls, as it is written in I Corinthians 15:44; that we have two bodies the flesh body known as the corruptible body, because it gets sick & dies, and then returns to dust from which it came; and we also have an incorruptible body, which is the spiritual body, that never gets old, never feels pain, never gets sick.

But not to get off the subject of this thread, it is written to be absent from the flesh is to be present with the Lord.....

II Corithians 5:8
" We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY [ the flesh body], and to be present with the Lord. "


It is also written in a hebraism, an idiom, or rather figure of speech in the BooK of Ecclesiastes that when the spirit leaves the flesh body, and the spirit is the intellect of the soul, that the spirit returns to God in which gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
" Or even the silver cord be loosed [sliver cord be loosed meaning= After we die, the soul departs from the flesh], or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. THEN SHALL THE DUST RETURN TO THE EARTH AS IT WAS; AND THE SPIRIT UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT. " [ I Corinthians 15:44 ]


Also Jesus Christ gives an excellent desciption in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16:19-31, where He explains that there are two sides of Heaven and in between the two is a very wide gap, in which the righteous are on one side, the righteous being those that do right according to the will of God, and those that did not on the other side. The Rich Man found himself on the other side; although he could see across, and saw Abraham, and Lazarus, and while the Rich Man on the other side was tormented= meaning he was grieved, greatly grieved, and he desired to dip his finger in water... what water do you think that was ? I think it was the Living Water he now desired, which is to say Jesus Christ. But they could not give him the water anyways, because there was a GREAT GULF [Luke 16:26] BETWEEN THEM; meaning there was a GREAT GAP, the Rich Man could NOT cross over. And then the Rich Man said okay then... send Lazarus back to his family to testify, so that his brothers would not end up like him, but Abraham, said THEY HAVE MOSES, AND THE PROPHETS, they have Scripture JUST as the Rich Man did. But the Rich Man, said no.. no.. it would be better if you would send Lazarus back, because they will BELIEVE someone that has rose from the dead, and Abraham told him IF THEY HEAR NOT THE PROPHETS ( If they don't hear God's Word through them) then they won't be persauded, becasue ONE has rose from the dead. And of course that One was Jesus Christ, who rose on the third day.

And also it is written in I Thessalonians 4:13, that we NOT BE IGNORANT concerning that that are asleep ( meaning them that are dead), it is written that we sorrow NOT ! Even as others which have no hope, they have no hope either because they don't believe that they have return to the Father or but many believe that their Loved ones are out here in some hole in the ground. And it goes on to say that....

I Thessalonians 4:14
" For IF WE BELEIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIES AND ROSE AGAIN; EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN CHRIST WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. " [The dead in Christ rise first because they are already with Him, they are already there.] I Corinthians 15:52


And the following verse goes on to say that we which are alive and remain ( alive and remain in the flesh) unto the coming of the Lord, SHALL NOT PREVENT (Prevent in the Greek here meaning "anticipate"= To meet before, or "precede" = to come before) THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP ( them which are dead, because they are already with Him).

A similar question was asked to Christ, Christ Speaking, it is written....

Matthew 22:31-32
" But as TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, HAVE YE NOT READ THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN UNTO YOU BY GOD, saying I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB ? [it is recorded in Exodus 3:6 ! ] GOD IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, "BUT OF THE LIVING."


Read the Parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus in Luke 16, it's a good description of where the dead are, and I think it helps, because it shows us that all must go to the Father, because ALL must go to Him for Judgement, the good, the bad, and the ugly. We see in Luke 16 that there is a holding place, there are two sides with a great gap inbetween. We know that no one has yet received the second death, which is the death of the soul that will not happen until Judgement Day as it is written in Revelation 20:12-15, we see those that are "spiritually dead" are also judged, those that NEVER did receive The Word of God, those that never received Christ, and there we also see that WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOUND IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, that is the second death, which is the death of the soul, these perish completely, no more spiritual body, no more soul, no more spirit, they NEVER exist ever again. Well, this is my understanding and I hope that gives you a little insight !

Abiyah
 

guibox

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
Abiyah said:
This is my understanding of where the souls go once they have departed from the flesh body; for the flesh body in which our inner being resides, which is to say the soul, is only a tempory dwelling place for our souls, as it is written in I Corinthians 15:44; that we have two bodies the flesh body known as the corruptible body, because it gets sick & dies, and then returns to dust from which it came; and we also have an incorruptible body, which is the spiritual body, that never gets old, never feels pain, never gets sick.
Your fundamental problem is that this verse is talking about two BODIES our earthly one of sin, and the changed, glorious resurrection body that this chapter continues to talk about and culminated in verses 51-55.

Where you can honestly find a body and immortal soul from this verse has me concerned with your interpretive techniques...which shows itself in the rest of your post here...


Abiyah said:
II Corithians 5:8
" We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY [ the flesh body], and to be present with the Lord. "
Nowhere does this verse speak of an immortal soul. Where is it? It is assumed because of the preconceived notion that Paul is speaking of IMMEDIATE life after death. He is not and therefore one must interpret this verse of speaking of a soul. However, elsewhere Paul speaks of resurrection to life. There is no time factor in the grave. When you die, the next thing you will know is God's presence.

If you actually read the verses before this verse (verse 1-7) you will see that Paul's desire is not to be found naked but clothed in and put on immortality. This immortality is put on the resurrection as is spoken almost word for word in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. In other words, Paul wishes to not be left for dead in the grave but to be given eternal life. This, as Paul and the early Christians knew, happens at the resurrection not at death.

Abiyah said:
It is also written in a hebraism, an idiom, or rather figure of speech in the BooK of Ecclesiastes that when the spirit leaves the flesh body, and the spirit is the intellect of the soul, that the spirit returns to God in which gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
" Or even the silver cord be loosed [sliver cord be loosed meaning= After we die, the soul departs from the flesh], or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. THEN SHALL THE DUST RETURN TO THE EARTH AS IT WAS; AND THE SPIRIT UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT. " [ I Corinthians 15:44 ]
Your problem is two fold in your interpretation

1) Making the 'spirit' to be the same as the 'soul' with the same immortal attributes
2) Assuming that this 'spirit' is an immortal, thinking substance

The OT never viewed man as a dichotic being but a wholistic one. The spirit as translated in Job is merely the life, the breath breathed into man at creation. The act of it going back to God is merely a literary usage to show that all power comes from God.

Nowhere in the Bible (and especially the OT) is the 'spirit' or 'soul' used to mean something that is immortal. It's not there.

Abiyah said:
And also it is written in I Thessalonians 4:13, that we NOT BE IGNORANT concerning that that are asleep ( meaning them that are dead), it is written that we sorrow NOT ! Even as others which have no hope, they have no hope either because they don't believe that they have return to the Father or but many believe that their Loved ones are out here in some hole in the ground.).
Really, Abiyah. You are reading far into it and making it say what it is not saying. The whole purpose of this section is to talk about the joy and hope of the resurrection! The wicked do not have this hope because they will not rise to life! But then Paul goes on to show what this hope is all about. This hope is in the resurrection, not because our loved ones are in heaven!

Abiyah said:
And it goes on to say that....
I Thessalonians 4:14
" For IF WE BELEIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIES AND ROSE AGAIN; EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN CHRIST WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. " [The dead in Christ rise first because they are already with Him, they are already there.] I Corinthians 15:52
Those that 'are asleep in Jesus' cannot be simultaneously in heaven. John 5:28,29 says 'Marvel not at this that those asleep in their graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth'

Those that hear his voice are awakened from the grave, not rushing down to inhabit their body. The bible doesn't support or even imply such a thing!

To interpret it your way is to ignore the first part of the verse and make it meaningless.

"FOR IF we believe that Jesus DIED and ROSE again...EVEN SO them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him"

In other words (and the Message bible brings this out beautifully) that what this verse is saying is that like Christ, we will die and God will make us rise. Acts 2:34 and other verses say that it is God who resurrected Christ, not Christ Himself. In this manner, we will also be resurrected.

It is Christ the Son not God the Father who is coming back to earth to collect His children. Hence, 'will God bring with Him' cannot mean that Christ is bringing 'disembodied souls' from heaven.

WHY? What a meaningless and foolish thing. If eternal life is already recognized and experienced, a resurrection is foolish.

Abiyah said:
And the following verse goes on to say that we which are alive and remain ( alive and remain in the flesh) unto the coming of the Lord, SHALL NOT PREVENT (Prevent in the Greek here meaning "anticipate"= To meet before, or "precede" = to come before) THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP ( them which are dead, because they are already with Him).
Look at the context of the section, Abiyah. It says we will not precede them in meeting the Lord 'For the dead in Christ will rise first' then we shall meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord'

You are putting your preconceived notions into the verses instead of seeing them in their context. Nowehere does this passage say what you are trying to say.

Abiyah said:
A similar question was asked to Christ, Christ Speaking, it is written....

Matthew 22:31-32
" But as TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, HAVE YE NOT READ THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN UNTO YOU BY GOD, saying I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB ? [it is recorded in Exodus 3:6 ! ] GOD IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, "BUT OF THE LIVING."
Christ was speaking to the Saducees that didn't think there was any resurrection. In other words, those that died were dead forever and will never have any eternal life. Jesus said that He is the giver of Life. No man can die eternally when Christ is Lord of them. Hence the reason why He said that He is not the God of the dead but of the living. Again, if you look at the verses before it, you see that He is talking about the hope of the resurrection to eternal life and not eternal separation in the grave for God's children. It is gratuitous assumption to read that Christ is saying all the saints are in heaven right now.

Context is everything...
 
A

Abiyah

Guest
Hi There !

WOW Guibox ! However, you had NOTHING to say about The Parable of Lazarus & the Rich Man... Hmmmm ? And Spoken of by Jesus Christ ... I don't know what Bible you're reading.. but every Scripture I quoted, you have changed it's context to fit your beliefs & teachngs; not only is that SAD, but very Dangerous ! All I can say to you Nuta... ? is don't take my word (or ANYONE elses word for that matter) for what I say regarding where are the dead, but rather look it up for yourself, and ask our Heavenly Father to help you read with understanding. Oh yea... I almost forgot ? Guibox, now who was on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus Christ ? Oh wait... I remember NOW... Elijah & Moses ! That's right ! ( :lol: Forget I asked ! )

Abiyah
 
C

christianchic2

Guest
Look at this passge

(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Doesn't this mean that the person will be with Jesus in heaven of paradise?
I do believe when we die, we do go to heaven and not any where else.
 
L

Lyric's Dad

Guest
christianchic2 said:
Look at this passge

(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Doesn't this mean that the person will be with Jesus in heaven of paradise?
I do believe when we die, we do go to heaven and not any where else.
Soul sleep is a false doctrine that got much of it's beginnings in the Jehovah's witness church. When the body dies, the spirit goes to be with the Lord.
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
Lyric's Dad said:
christianchic2 said:
Look at this passge

(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Doesn't this mean that the person will be with Jesus in heaven of paradise?
I do believe when we die, we do go to heaven and not any where else.
Soul sleep is a false doctrine that got much of it's beginnings in the Jehovah's witness church. When the body dies, the spirit goes to be with the Lord.
Sputnik: No offense, LD, but was guibox's exellent and thorough post all for nought? I'm amazed that the traditional teachings of mainstream Christianity can still get away with such a glaring misinterpretation of scripture as 'instant heaven' (or 'instant hell' for that matter). How can you say that the analogy of 'sleep' as meaning 'death' is a false doctrine when the Bible states this fact so many times?

The particular doctrine of 'soul sleep', if you like, has nothing to do with the Jehovahs Witness or ANY denomination. It's purely scriptural! So, it can't possibly be a false doctrine unless the Bible is also false. I'm sorry but I just don't understand how something so abundantly clear can be so looked beyond or otherwise ignored.
 
L

Lyric's Dad

Guest
SputnikBoy said:
Lyric's Dad said:
christianchic2 said:
Look at this passge

(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Doesn't this mean that the person will be with Jesus in heaven of paradise?
I do believe when we die, we do go to heaven and not any where else.
Soul sleep is a false doctrine that got much of it's beginnings in the Jehovah's witness church. When the body dies, the spirit goes to be with the Lord.
Sputnik: No offense, LD, but was guibox's exellent and thorough post all for nought? I'm amazed that the traditional teachings of mainstream Christianity can still get away with such a glaring misinterpretation of scripture as 'instant heaven' (or 'instant hell' for that matter). How can you say that the analogy of 'sleep' as meaning 'death' is a false doctrine when the Bible states this fact so many times?

The particular doctrine of 'soul sleep', if you like, has nothing to do with the Jehovahs Witness or ANY denomination. It's purely scriptural! So, it can't possibly be a false doctrine unless the Bible is also false. I'm sorry but I just don't understand how something so abundantly clear can be so looked beyond or otherwise ignored.
In order to accept this theory you have to overlook some very clear scriptures, of which many have been mentioned in this thread.
 
M

Merry Menagerie

Guest
Has anyone ever considered that our time isn't the same as the Lord's time?

Like from our perspective the person is asleep and awaits the return of Jesus right...but...you know how when we go to sleep at night...morning comes in a blink of an eye? Like the last thing we knew it was night time and now it's morning?

So what if...to the dead person, it is like going to sleep then in the next minute they are awake and in heaven? So technically, in the spirit realm, they could very well be in heaven. But on earth, which is limited by time and space...they aren't in heaven yet. But take away the element of time and space then they could very well be in heaven.
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
Lyric's Dad said:
SputnikBoy said:
[quote="Lyric's Dad":946b3]
christianchic2 said:
Look at this passge

(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Doesn't this mean that the person will be with Jesus in heaven of paradise?
I do believe when we die, we do go to heaven and not any where else.
Soul sleep is a false doctrine that got much of it's beginnings in the Jehovah's witness church. When the body dies, the spirit goes to be with the Lord.
[/quote:946b3]

Sputnik: No offense, LD, but was guibox's exellent and thorough post all for nought? I'm amazed that the traditional teachings of mainstream Christianity can still get away with such a glaring misinterpretation of scripture as 'instant heaven' (or 'instant hell' for that matter). How can you say that the analogy of 'sleep' as meaning 'death' is a false doctrine when the Bible states this fact so many times?

The particular doctrine of 'soul sleep', if you like, has nothing to do with the Jehovahs Witness or ANY denomination. It's purely scriptural! So, it can't possibly be a false doctrine unless the Bible is also false. I'm sorry but I just don't understand how something so abundantly clear can be so looked beyond or otherwise ignored.

Lyric's Dad: In order to accept this theory you have to overlook some very clear scriptures, of which many have been mentioned in this thread.

Sputnik: Sorry to be 'pit-bullish', LD, but I'm afraid that I haven't seen the 'many very clear scriptures' to support 'instant heaven' mentioned on this thread at all. Do we then ignore all of the scriptures that consistently refer to death as 'sleep'? There's a whole slew of them, y'know. There are so many, in fact, that I think it's rather unreasonable of you to call 'soul sleep' a false doctrine. Please, participators and visitors to this thread, get a hold of a Bible Concordance and check this out for yourselves. You'll be busy! Then come back and say in all honesty that 'soul sleep' is a false doctrine.

By the way, the actual term 'soul sleep' seems to be one that is used by nonAdventists as some kind of a slight to SDAs. I'd never heard of it until a few years ago. Is this a piece of Adventist terminology anyone? Incidentally, we're told that, on the day of Christ's return, the dead in Christ will rise from their graves. What dead? Evidently they are already in heaven or hell. My, what a tangled web we weave.
 

guibox

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
Abiyah said:
Hi There !

WOW Guibox ! However, you had NOTHING to say about The Parable of Lazarus & the Rich Man... Hmmmm ? And Spoken of by Jesus Christ ... I don't know what Bible you're reading.. but every Scripture I quoted, you have changed it's context to fit your beliefs & teachngs; not only is that SAD, but very Dangerous ! All I can say to you Nuta... ? is don't take my word (or ANYONE elses word for that matter) for what I say regarding where are the dead, but rather look it up for yourself, and ask our Heavenly Father to help you read with understanding. Oh yea... I almost forgot ? Guibox, now who was on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus Christ ? Oh wait... I remember NOW... Elijah & Moses ! That's right ! ( :lol: Forget I asked ! )

Abiyah
Sorry, Abiyah, but nothing I have interpreted is out of context. You still insist your intpretation is correct when all that you say is NOT included in the context of the verses. You've ignored clear teaching that show the resurrection is the hope of eternal life by reading an immortal soul into texts that not only do not support it, but blatantly contradict it in context both within the chapter the verse is contained in and other texts in the scriture.

I cannot apologize for interpreting the bible exegetically when that is the correct way to study the bible. You are interpreting it eisegetically, that is, starting with a pre conceived notion and interpreting the verse from that point of view.

As for the Rich man and Lazarus, I have interpreted it elsewhere on this forum. Follow the link to this discussion.

Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12203

As for the rest of the issues we are talking about, the following links provide more biblical information. Nuta, follow these links to see the logic in what I am saying.

Free and Lyric's Dad and Abiyah, please do the same thing and put your preconceived notions on the shelf to let the bible explain itself to you!

In Christ

Guibox

I Thessalonians 4:13-16
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=13069

Resurrection not Immortality!
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12275

The Soul in the Bible
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12210

The Spirit in the Bible
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12211
 
A

Abiyah

Guest
christianchic2 said:
Look at this passage

(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise." Doesn't this mean that the person will be with Jesus in heaven of paradise? I do believe when we die, we do go to heaven and not any where else.
Hmmmmm ? lol lol lol..... I think this Scripture is VERY CLEAR and to the point; and NEEDS NO INTERPRETATION. Excellent & thorough post Miss ChristianChic !

Abiyah
 

guibox

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
christianchic2 said:
Look at this passge

(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Doesn't this mean that the person will be with Jesus in heaven of paradise?
I do believe when we die, we do go to heaven and not any where else.
The error with this is that it contradicts a few things and brings out some problems:

1) Christ did not go to heaven at death but rested in the grave as He promised. He told Mary not to touch Him for "I have not yet ascended to my Father"
2) The criminals words are interesting "Remember me when thou come into thy kingdom", "Not save me when I die so I may be in paradise with you". We see that the second coming is when Christ truly 'comes' into His kingdom.
3) This is contradicted by the Scriptures that say man is asleep until the resurrection.
4) There is no scriptural proof that Christ went anywhere but the grave before His resurrection

The problem here is that there is no punctuation in the original Greek. The comma should have been placed after today, not before. Throughout the scripture the phrase, "I say unto today..." and "Verily I say this day....." is used when people are speaking. You will find numerous references to this way of talking to show importance right then to say what was needed to say. The language being used in this case follows that format. It actually doesn't make any sense from a biblical structure point of view to have the comma after today.

Christ was saying "I say unto you this day, you will be with me in paradise" The translators were already influenced by the immortality of the soul doctrine and I believe 'unintentionally' placed the comma before rather than after the word 'today'.


Merry Menagerie said:
Has anyone ever considered that our time isn't the same as the Lord's time?

Like from our perspective the person is asleep and awaits the return of Jesus right...but...you know how when we go to sleep at night...morning comes in a blink of an eye? Like the last thing we knew it was night time and now it's morning?

So what if...to the dead person, it is like going to sleep then in the next minute they are awake and in heaven? So technically, in the spirit realm, they could very well be in heaven. But on earth, which is limited by time and space...they aren't in heaven yet. But take away the element of time and space then they could very well be in heaven.
Merry, you are almost correct and there is truth in your post. There is no time factor in the grave and Paul's verses that seem to contradict the resurrection can be explained in these terms. However, despite that, the righteous are not awaking in heaven but from their graves when Christ comes "to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

When we die the next thing we will know is the presence of the Lord.
 
M

Merry Menagerie

Guest
Aaaah well I was almost there ;)

Meeting the Lord...whatever...but from THEIR perspective they'll be meeting the Lord and going to heaven right? From out perspective, which is governed by time and space they aren't there yet.
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
Sorry Abiyah, but I'm 100% behind guibox on this one. What he says makes absolute biblical sense and has NOTHING at all to do with denomination. I really do wish some on this forum would lose the idea that SDAs have, for no valid reason, mind you, invented their own doctrines. Those who hold this false notion seem totally oblivious to the fact that this silliness actually highlights their own ignorance to scriptural facts. For the most part, SDA doctrines are absolutely scriptural-based. I say 'for the most part' because, in all truthfulness, NO denomination has it 100% correct. I wouldn't mind a dollar for every time I've said that on this forum.

Excuse my rant but it DOES have everything to do with the thread topic. Tradition and preconceived ideas that have no scriptural backing run rampant throughout Christianity. And, should a denomination (in this case the SDA Church) deviate from these mainstream Christian beliefs, then that denomination is 'in for it' from the majority of mainstreamers who, in actuality, follow their leaders like sheep. The Bible, traditionally, has already been 'interpreted by the wise ones' so no further study by the majority of Christians is necessary. And, should studies be undertaken, preconceived notions passed on from 'the wise ones' remain intact. So, generally speaking, deep and meaningful study and debating possible 'discrepencies' with the hierarchy is not encouraged.

Adventists are encouraged to read the Bible for themselves, to question existing doctrines if need be, and to have a clear understanding for themselves WHY and HOW SDA doctrines came about. That isn't to say that ALL SDAs do so, of course. I'm sure that any number of them are just as contented as other Christians to sit back and 'take their pastor's word' as being the gospel truth. I personally have made a point of questioning SDA doctrines during my 17 years affiliation with the church. I still do and the more I do the more I find that SDA doctrines align very nicely with the scriptures. It's also my understanding, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that existing SDA doctrines are open to review and possibly change if need be should 'new light' become available.

As for the popular belief that one goes immediately to heaven (or hell) at death, this notion is by no means scriptural ...it's a traditional belief, a fairy tale for kids. The scriptural one-liners that are presented on this thread to evidently 'prove a point' - a text plucked from here, a text plucked from there - are given to the exclusion of other previous texts that have ALREADY established the facts of the matter at hand. Any texts that appear to be contrary to the established truths are CLEARLY MISinterpretations and need to be re-examined. This is why we seem to get the Bible contradicting itself.

It's so difficult or even impossible to debate issues with those who have the 'traditional blinders' welded to their eyes, whatever the denomination. And, most frustrating, is when a poster presents a concise piece of work addressing specific issues (such as that by guibox in regard to this topic) that appear to be ignored by most. Typically, it's only a short time later that some poster again raises the VERY same issue/s just recently addressed. Are all here REALLY interested in scriptural truths?
 
C

cj

Guest
Lyric's Dad said:
Soul sleep is a false doctrine that got much of it's beginnings in the Jehovah's witness church. When the body dies, the spirit goes to be with the Lord.
Anyone spot the error in Lyric's Dad's speaking above?


Notice he starts of with "souk" sleep. but then ends with a conclusion about the spirit of a man.


See, the problem is, the soul of a man and the spirit of a man are two different things.

But most of those in Christianity don't know this. In fact, they really have little understanding about their spirit. Yet, the spirit of a man is the first aspect of a man that in God's wisdom He determined would be the initial point of contact regarding salvation of a man. It is also the only aspect of a man that is immediately and fully saved.

The fact is, the spirit of a man can be fully one with God even as the soul of this man is against God.


In love,
cj
 
L

Lyric's Dad

Guest
cj said:
Lyric's Dad said:
Soul sleep is a false doctrine that got much of it's beginnings in the Jehovah's witness church. When the body dies, the spirit goes to be with the Lord.
Anyone spot the error in Lyric's Dad's speaking above?


Notice he starts of with "souk" sleep. but then ends with a conclusion about the spirit of a man.


See, the problem is, the soul of a man and the spirit of a man are two different things.

But most of those in Christianity don't know this. In fact, they really have little understanding about their spirit. Yet, the spirit of a man is the first aspect of a man that in God's wisdom He determined would be the initial point of contact regarding salvation of a man. It is also the only aspect of a man that is immediately and fully saved.

The fact is, the spirit of a man can be fully one with God even as the soul of this man is against God.


In love,
cj
What you think you are teaching is not anything new. I completely understand the three parts of a person. "Soul sleep" is merely the term that is used by most to describe the false belief system you are speaking of here. As for the Spirit of a Christian, it goes directly to God.
 
C

cj

Guest
Lyric's Dad said:
What you think you are teaching is not anything new.
What I think I'm teaching?

Your "quick to be offended" petticoat is showing Lyric's.

Lyric's Dad said:
I completely understand the three parts of a person.
Great.

Lyric's Dad said:
"Soul sleep" is merely the term that is used by most to describe the false belief system you are speaking of here.
That I am speaking of? Since when did I "speak of" something called soul-sleep?

All I said was that you did not really answer anything in your response.

And still have not.

Lyric's Dad said:
As for the Spirit of a Christian, it goes directly to God.
"It goes directly to God", wonderful, but scripture tells us that God is in our spirit.

So are you saying that our spirit goes directly to our spirit?


In love,
cj
 
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