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Bible Study Do we go to heaven as soon as we die?

S

SputnikBoy

Guest
noblej6: Physical death IS a mere sleep, but only until the time of the parousia or the last trumpet as it says here:1 Cor 15:51, "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,....................."

Sputnik: Sorry for mutilating your post, noble, but I didn't want to address the whole thing. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, "Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but all will be changed (52) in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ..."

What Paul is talking about here are the events that will occur at the coming of Jesus ...not before. On that day the righteous dead will be raised from their graves to be with the Lord. The righteous ones that are STILL ALIVE at Jesus' coming will experience the same changed, imperishable bodies as those raised from their graves. When Paul refers to 'we' in that passage as in 'we will not all sleep', he is not referring to himself and his comanions but uses 'we' in a general sense for some future time. Paul knew that he would die (sleep) until the day of Jesus' return.

The 'mystery' Paul reveals to his audience about the resurrection body are things they evidently did not previously understand. At the time of Jesus' return millions will still be alive. Many more millions will be dead, some having been dead for a very long time. Whether dead or alive on that glorious day, the righteous of each status - the dead and the living - will receive changed, imperishable bodies, and be caught up to be with Jesus in the air. There is no reason to read anything else into that piece of scripture.

noble: The trick is, the parousia has happened, therefore nobody has to 'sleep' anymore, they are all judged at death. Hebrews 9:27

Sputnik: I don't think so, noble. Where on earth did you come up with that? You appear to misunderstand what Paul is talking about here.

noble: to determine the truth of that you need only answer this question.
In the following verse define the meanin of the first "we" in the sentence. Then define the meaning of the second "we." 1 Thess 4:15 "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

Sputnik: I know that there are those who believe that Paul has the status of Jesus, but the above are not the words of the Lord. They are the words of Paul who is also representing Silas and Timothy. This is where the 'we' comes into so much of this Book of Thessalonians. The first 'we' in the sentence is referring to Paul and his companions. All three were obviously not taking turns in holding the pen used to write the letter to the Thessalonians. Paul could just as well have written 'Silas, Timothy, and I ..." but for convenience he writes "we", which is fair enough.

The second 'we', as I mentioned already, is merely a 'general' usage of the word 'we'. It does NOT mean 'Silas, Timothy, and I' as in the first usage of the word 'we'. It means 'those' who are still alive when Jesus returns. We, today, regularly use similar generalizations in our speech and correspondence. Paul was doing the same thing. You must know that.

Previous Sputnik: Even though those who believe in Jesus might be physically dead, they have received eternal life. Get the point? I think we can apply this example of scripture to that of Martha. As guibox said, while Martha is still resting in her grave, she WAS given the assurance by Jesus of having received everlasting life. Jesus was right ...she will NEVER die.

noble: Martha is not resting in her grave, she has been spiritually resurrected to Heaven where she will be eternally. Jesus said she would never die, never sleep. The significance being that in Paul's time it became unnecessary for believers to 'sleep' in the dust as it says in the verses above that I quoted.

Sputnik: Huh? No fair, noble. Jesus did NOT say that Martha would never sleep. You made that up. Martha, in fact, was already quite aware as to what happens when a person dies. Her theology was quite good because in John 11:24, she says, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.†She was talking about her brother, Lazarus, who had died four days previously. Jesus had just told her that her brother will rise again (23). So, you see, Martha knew that her brother and the righteous would rise from their graves at the resurrection on the last day. Do you agree with this?

Then, Jesus says to her (v.25), “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, EVEN THOUGH HE DIES, (26) and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?â€Â

So, Jesus did not say that Martha and others would not experience physical death. In fact, as I emphasized, Jesus states quite firmly that one WILL INDEED experience a time in the grave. Jesus also referred to Lazarus’ death as ‘sleep’. You’ll notice that Lazarus had gone nowhere during his four days in the tomb. He had gone neither to heaven or hell during that period of time. He was still in the tomb when Jesus called him out ...why? Shouldn't he or his 'spirit' have gone 'somewhere' by this time?

noble: Jesus told Martha she would never die. Paul tells us that not all of those he was writing to will have to SLEEP.

Sputnik: Sorry I seem to be all over the place and repeating myself but I’m just responding to your comments as set out by you. Jesus told Martha that she and others WOULD die a physical death (a ‘sleep’) but that they (the righteous) would (ultimately) live forever. Also again, Paul was using a general ‘we’ in this scripture. ‘We’ in this regard was intended for those at a time in the future who would still be living at Jesus’ coming. Do you still not see this, noble?

As a matter of interest ...why on earth would the experience of 'death' have been changed in Paul's day? ...for what purpose? It not only is NOT scriptural but it makes absolutely no sense. Is this 'new and improved' experience of death supposed to be one of the many benefits of the New Covenant we keep hearing about? If so, then I've now heard everything. This is no reflection on you personally, by the way, noble ...just the idea.
 
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noblej6

Guest
Hi Sputnik,

What Paul is talking about here are the events that will occur at the coming of Jesus ...not before.
Yes, this is talking about the events that occur at the parousia, the coming of the son of man, the event that follows immediately after the GREAT tribulation.

What I am saying is that all this took place in the first century which is why Jesus says "all these things happen before THIS generation passes."

When Paul refers to 'we' in that passage as in 'we will not all sleep', he is not referring to himself and his comanions but uses 'we' in a general sense for some future time. Paul knew that he would die (sleep) until the day of Jesus' return.
I suggest that Paul is saying "WE" meaning, those he was writing to. You seem to be able to understand the meaning of the sentence as long as it is "we" future so why is it difficult to accept the actual words of the sentence.

We who are alive and remain....you know there really is no way to take that other than what it actually says.

We who shop at Wal-Mart.................

WE who are overweight............

WE who are old and ugly..........

There is no problem figuring out who we is, not for me anyway. Paul suggests that either himself or some he is writing to will be alive at the time of the parousia.

The righteous ones that are STILL ALIVE at Jesus' coming will experience the same changed, imperishable bodies as those raised from their graves.
Not until they die they won't because they are totally different.

There is the earthly body and the heavenly body. The heavenly body does not walk around earth and the earthly body does not go to heaven.

Paul knew that he would die (sleep) until the day of Jesus' return.
I think he would know that except Paul had no way of knowing if he would still be alive and remaining when the parousia occured. Paul would know it was in that generation, but would Paul himself live that long, he wouldn't know that. If Paul died before the parousia he would sleep in the dust, if he lived until the parousia Paul would still die, but wuld not sleep in the dust.

Whether dead or alive on that glorious day, the righteous of each status - the dead and the living - will receive changed, imperishable bodies, and be caught up to be with Jesus in the air.
Whoops, the physically living will not see Jesus. You have to be stone cold dead before you see Him. The believers who die after the parousia are the ones who are blessed as it says here:

Rev 14
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

The second 'we', as I mentioned already, is merely a 'general' usage of the word 'we'. It does NOT mean 'Silas, Timothy, and I' as in the first usage of the word 'we'. It means 'those' who are still alive when Jesus returns. We, today, regularly use similar generalizations in our speech and correspondence. Paul was doing the same thing. You must know that.
Thank you very much for dealing with that. I think you may be the first one to have not ignored that question.

Actually the sentence states we who are alive and remain................

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

If we refers to Paul who is writing , the second 'we' includes Paul as well, at least to me it does and I have about 100 other verses that agree with that.

Sputnik: Huh? No fair, noble. Jesus did NOT say that Martha would never sleep. You made that up. Martha, in fact, was already quite aware as to what happens when a person dies. Her theology was quite good because in John 11:24, she says, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.†She was talking about her brother, Lazarus, who had died four days previously. Jesus had just told her that her brother will rise again (23). So, you see, Martha knew that her brother and the righteous would rise from their graves at the resurrection on the last day. Do you agree with this?
Yes, Jesus did say that she would never sleep. I'll quote those verses again.

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus says in verse 26 that Martha will never die. That means she will not sleep in the dust. The reason being that , like some that Paul was writing to, she would be alive and remaining at the parousia and the mystery is...we will not all sleep. Not we..you and me, but WE Paul and Martha.

Martha will be raised in the resurrection at the last day , yes the last day of her personal life.

You haven't quite got my point here from John11. Martha physically died, meaning her earthly natural body lost life. She was put in a grave, but Jesus specifically told her she would never die... she would nevr die, not die for a little while , not die and just not be aware of the passage of time, not die but has eternal life 2000 years down the road, but Jesus said she would NEVER die. That means not ever die at all. Because we know that she did physicllydie it follows that she must have been resurrected to a spiritual Heavenly existance and LIVES.

Larurus was resucitated, not resurrected. Lazurus later physicl died as well. It is not know if he lived until the parousia or not.

So we disagree here mostly on when the parousia or the coming of the son of man happens. You feel it is a future event and I say the actual parousia that follows the GREAT tribulation happened in the first century. The GREAT tribulation was the rebellion of Judea which took place from 66-70 AD. The parousia is the coming of the son of man or the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven. After that time people who believe can go directly to Heaven and not have to sleep in the dust as we have discussed.

I see a heavenly kingdom and disagree that there is a return of Jesus to planet earth at any time in His fleshy body in the future. The resurrection is a spiritual resurrection to the spiritual or heavenly realm. I see no physical resurrection anywhere in scripture.

I will gladly provid scripture for any specific questions you may have. I am quite surprised that you are not familiar with this doctrine, it is probably the majority opinion, but I have no numbers to prove that.

John
 

Bick

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Messages
709
Do we go to heaven when we die?

Gentlemen: You are coming up with ideas that Martha must be somewhere because in the KJV, and most others, it says in John 11:25,26,
"Iam the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die will live."

Let's look at that much. If a believer dies, he will be resurrected. Right?
That is just what Jesus said there and elsewhere. He has the power to resurrect, and to give life.

OK so far. Next we read, "and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die."

But that is opposing what Jesus said up to this point. What is the answer?

Correct translation! In many places in the typical English translation, where it is "No not ........for the age (aion)", from the literal Greek, the translators actually gave their interpretation, rather than a literal translation. They interpretated "aion" as "ever", and "not ever" became, "never".

Here are some other verses in The AV that should be "not ...for the age"
or "to the age":

John 4:14 "water that I shall give him shall never (for the age) thirst."
John 8:51 "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
8:52 same as vs 51 except "he shall never taste of death."

Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom, which, when He was rejected nationally, He knew the kingdom on earth was the age to come.

God bless, Bick
 
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noblej6

Guest
Hi Bick,

Gentlemen: You are coming up with ideas that Martha must be somewhere because in the KJV, and most others, it says in John 11:25,26,
"Iam the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die will live."
Very simply, yes Martha has to be 'living' somewhere because Jesus said she would never die. Paul in 1 Cor 15 describes how 'living' is possible in a spiritual body. 2 Cor 5:1 illustrates that that spiritual body is there after the physical body is destroyed. Is Martha's physical, earthly body around any where? NO, so then it is destroyed and that means she is 'living' in that Heavenly house that 2 Cor 5:1 talks about.

Let's look at that much. If a believer dies, he will be resurrected. Right?
That is just what Jesus said there and elsewhere. He has the power to resurrect, and to give life.
Yes, He does and the dead are resurrected, correct, some to righteous life and some are raised to be condemned.

OK so far. Next we read, "and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die."

But that is opposing what Jesus said up to this point. What is the answer?
No, it doesn't oppose what Jesus says, it opposes what some christian doctrines say. Jesus says they will never die...the never dying comes in because we live a physical earthly life and at death instantly begin 'living' a spiritual life. The resurrection is not back to a earthly physical existance.

Actually you quoted some more verses that show the believers will never taste death. Martha is the easiest to go thru, I feel. IN non-evangelical(I don't know what term to use) churches, John 11:25,26 is used at nearly every funeral to illustrate the instant Heavenly home for the recently departed.

Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom, which, when He was rejected nationally, He knew the kingdom on earth was the age to come.
Let's take this road. Could you show me what verses you would use to illustrate an earthly kingdom and exactly what you mean by an earthly kingdom? Let's go thru those and see if that jives with all biblical scripture.

John
 
K

karenlynne

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At death we enter infinity which is a different matter entirely.Time no longer exist;there is no past or future.We all face the judgment of God at the same moment.
 
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bibleberean

Guest
13 The Judgments
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

Chapter 13: The Judgments
See Chart The Judgments.

The common opinion that the Millennium is to be ushered in by the preaching of the Gospel, and that after the Millennium there is to be a "General Resurrection" followed by a "General judgment," and then the earth is to be destroyed by fire, is not scriptural.

There can be no "General" Judgment because the Scriptures speak of one judgment as being in the "Air" (1Th 4:16-17; 2Co 5:6-10);

another on the "Earth" (Mt 25:31-46);

and a third in "Heaven," the earth and its atmosphere having fled away. Re 20:11-15. And to make sure that these three separate judgments should not be combined in one General judgment scene, three different Thrones are mentioned.

1. The "Judgment Seat of Christ" 2Co 5:10. "In the Air." For "Believers" only.

2. The "Throne of Glory." Mt 25:31-32. "On the Earth." For "The Nations."

3. The "Great White Throne." Re 20:11-12. "In Heaven." For the "Wicked Dead."
 
J

JamesLovesGod

Guest
At death we enter infinity which is a different matter entirely.Time no longer exist;there is no past or future.We all face the judgment of God at the same moment.
Hi,

I have no knowledge on this subject, but i will be studying as id like to know this myself.

From past knowledge i remember being told that if you belive in the lord your are resurected to heaven, those that face the judgment are those who are on this earth at the time god comes to earth. Dosnt it say in the bible that those who belive wont face the judgment?

Like i said im unable to comment on this as i dont have the knowledge but its something i want to find out.
 
A

Abiyah

Guest
Hi there !!! : )

JamesLovesGod said:
Hi,
I have no knowledge on this subject, but i will be studying as id like to know this myself.

From past knowledge i remember being told that if you belive in the lord your are resurected to heaven, those that face the judgment are those who are on this earth at the time god comes to earth. Doesn't it say in the bible that those who believe won't face the judgment?
Like i said im unable to comment on this as i dont have the knowledge but its something i want to find out.
Hello there JamesLovesGod ! What a nice name. lol lol lol :) ; James ALL shall stand before God in Judgement, both the Righteous & the Unrighteous. We are ALL judged according to our works, whether they be good or evil. And when He returns at the Second Advent, Christ taught us that there will be some that believed, but He says to them I don't know you; because they were workers of iniquity, and apparently did not realize it [ Matthew 7:22-23]; He also taught us that when He comes in His glory, that He shall sit upon the throne of His glory [Matthew 25:31], that He's going to seperate those in which He is pleased with, and those in which He found no pleasure in; Read it for yourself in Matthew 25, the Parable of the 10 Virgins, as well as the Parable of the Sheep from the Goats.


Revelation 22:12
" And behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give EVERY MAN according as his work shall be. "


Psalm 7:8
" THE LORD SHALL JUDGE THE PEOPLE; Judge me O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me. "



It is NOT written that believers won't face Judgement, so I hope that those chapters in Matthew in which I have quoted above, will "help to" give you a "good start" as you begin to seek out the answers for yourself in the Word of God.


Abiyah
 

Vic C.

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The second coming for me does not occur in my lifetime. It occurs at the time of my death. Just as it occurred at the time of Martha's death for her. Just as it occurred at the time of the death of "they" as described in the Olivet Discourse. That is the only conclusion available as you put the following verses together.
John, I believe we have a problem here. The Bible teaches one Second Coming. Not a second, third, fourth, etc. What you are proposing is a "Second" coming with the death of each believer. I too believe you are misunderstanding what Jesus is saying to Martha and which death He was referring. Can you show us Scripture that supports your belief? May I remind you that it cannot not contradict...

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain to the coming of the Lord will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep.
16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first.
17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
LITV

and

1 Cor 15:51:53
51 ¶ Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.
52 In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
LITV
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
Vic: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain to the coming of the Lord will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep.
16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first.
17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
LITV

and

1 Cor 15:51:53
51 ¶ Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.
52 In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
LITV[/quote]

Sputnik: Not sure where you're coming from here, Vic. Are you, like noble, believing that the 'we' Paul is using in these passages actually refers to himself and other believers of his audience?

Or, like me, do you regard the 'we' as a general term meant for all believers on the day of Jesus' return and not before? Paul's terminology and intent in these scriptures seem so obvious to me. Anything other than this 'take' would create disharmony with other scriptures on the same issue.
 
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noblej6

Guest
Hi Vic,
John, I believe we have a problem here. The Bible teaches one Second Coming. Not a second, third, fourth, etc. What you are proposing is a "Second" coming with the death of each believer. I too believe you are misunderstanding what Jesus is saying to Martha and which death He was referring. Can you show us Scripture that supports your belief? May I remind you that it cannot not contradict...
Yes, I agree it cannot contradict any verse anywhere. Sputnik still feels that what I am saying does conflict, so let's go thru it again. If I do conflict then my biblical interpretation is hogwash and everybody should forget everything I said.

About the bible saying there is only one second coming. Yes, I know what you mean, but technically the bible never says second coming anywhere. There is a slight difference in meaning concerning the second coming. I see the second coming of Christ at the personal death of each individual. A process that had its beginning at the parousia which was the biblical event of the coming of the son of man which followed the Great tribulation which was in the first century.
SO when Vic questioned me saying a second coming and a third and so on...no, there is only two comings per person. Martha saw Jesus when she was on earth as He was, then when she died she saw Him a second time.

Some on this website assume that there is a once for all time second coming on earth when everyone sees Jesus at the same time.

Scripture concerning Marth and the never dying situation... Vic asks that I consider that what I quote cannot conflict with 1 Thess 4:15-17 and 1 Cor 15:51.

Absolutely, without backup scripture an interpretation is just a guess.

The main biblical verses here are still John 11:25 and 26.
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus spoke clearly to Martha and stated that believers LIVE even tho they DIE.

Okay, so what could that mean? First if there is a natural earthly physical body, there is a spiritual body.
Part of verse 44 is exactly that:
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15
40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

That spiritual body comes AFTER the natural or earthly body as it says here:

46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

That spiritual body is imperishable, in is glorious, it is powerful, and it was born a natural body and resurrected a spiritual body.

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Martha and us have borne the likeness of the earthly man and sometime after that earthly trip we will bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven, but the bible never says we should. It is the spiritual body we take on after the physical one that goes to Heaven.

That is what the bible says right here:

2 cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

So back in John 11:25 Jesus tells us that even tho we die, we LIVE... we die from that physical earthly body and inherit the spiritual body, the hevenly one and live forever in that.

So the everlasting living takes place first in the earthly body and then carries on in the spiritual bod. 2 COR 5 tells us that is when the earthly tent is destroyed. In JOhn 11:26 Jesus tells Martha that she will never die. Therfore Martha doesn't die she lives out her earthly life in her earthly, natural body and then begins her new life in the spiritual realm of Heaven in her spiritual eternal body. Spiritual here mening , invisible heavenly body. That is what eternal is, is invisible as the bible says here:

2 Cor 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

This is all different from Daniel's time. At that time Christ had not provided the ultimate sacrifice on the cross or destroyed all of His enemies. Therefore there was no option of Heaven available to Daniel or his people and they slept in the dust as it says right here:
Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your peopleâ€â€everyone whose name is found written in the bookâ€â€will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

People who died before Christ continued to be required to sleep in the dust because Jesus had not saved them yet. That changes at the last trumpet or the parousia.

1 Cor 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So how long does this process take that brings us from the earthly natural body to the spiritual heavenly body? It is fast enough that Jesus could tell Martha she would never die.

So I agree that the bible only teaches one second coming. How many was there for Martha? One where she walked on earth with HIm and one when she recieved her judgment from Him and then she remains forever in the air with Him. How many for Mother Teresa? One where she read of Jesus being on earth and one at her death and now she remains forever in the air with Him. How many for me? Same as Mother Teresa, but I haven't seen HIm yet and Mother Teresa has.

Let me ask you this.

There is a verse in the bible which says:
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

This is speaking of the time of the Great tribulation. So if anyone ever says "there He is" we can not believe it. As soon as someone says, "there He is" it is not true because we can not believe it.

Yet there is another verse that says:
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;

The question is How can every eye see Jesus but nobody ever says anything about it?

Answer: Because when you or I see Jesus at the second coming we are stone cold dead and dead men don't talk.

Can anybody come up with another reasonable answer?

John
 

Vic C.

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Sputnik said:
Or, like me, do you regard the 'we' as a general term meant for all believers on the day of Jesus' return and not before? Paul's terminology and intent in these scriptures seem so obvious to me. Anything other than this 'take' would create disharmony with other scriptures on the same issue.
That's where I am coming from. 8-)

About the bible saying there is only one second coming. Yes, I know what you mean, but technically the bible never says second coming anywhere.
I understand that John. I also see the parousia being taught in over 20 NT books. The Bible as we know it, doesn't say a lot of things we teach and believe. That's due in large part to what words meant then and how they are interpreted now. The Bible never uses the word 'Rapture, yet when we read literal interpretations, we read the word harpazo, which is commonly translated as "caught up. When we inspect the Latin, we find "rapiemur" which the root of the word is rapio. The closest contemporary word we have for it is "rapture.

My point:
I try not to get caught up (lol) in the contemporary technecalities of today's English translations without referring to literal translations and their Hewbrew and Greek roots.

Some on this website assume that there is a once for all time second coming on earth when everyone sees Jesus at the same time.
This isn't as assumption on our part as it is taught throughout the NT.

No offense, but as for the rest of your post, it seems as though you are contradicting what you were trying to convey. From the moment we die, until we are resurrected at the last Trump of God (those of us who are dead, of course) will indeed seem to happen at the twinkling of an eye. Why? Because we will be dead, unconscience and unaware of time that has passed by.

Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Our spirit will have returned to God. Believers are assured that the soul will not perish, but will be reunited once again with our spirit and becone a "living spirit". 1 Cor tells us we will be "raised a spiritual body". Paul never mentions this will happen at death because he has already told us this will happen at the Last Trump. Not one at a time, but "together".

Again...

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Sorry, but it says exactly what it says, nothing more, nothing less. How could God raise anyone who is already with Him???
 
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noblej6

Guest
Hi Vic,

No offense, but as for the rest of your post, it seems as though you are contradicting what you were trying to convey. From the moment we die, until we are resurrected at the last Trump of God (those of us who are dead, of course) will indeed seem to happen at the twinkling of an eye. Why? Because we will be dead, unconscience and unaware of time that has passed by.
Yes, I realize that my interpretation has not been understood. I'll write it out again and hope I can clear up what I am meaning.

My interpretation of the bible is that the last trump was in the first century. At that time there was a spiritual resurrection of the dead. Those dead had slept in the dust since their personal death and were raised in a spiritual resurrection to the Heavenly realm at that last trumpet or the parousia. As 1 Cor 15:51 says at the last trump we not longer have to sleep. After that last trump which was in the first century people are resurrected to eternal life at their personal death.

So I don't agree that after our personal death we will be unaware, but I say we will instantly be taken to heaven for the eternal life or we will be raised to be condemned.

So no, my commentary does not conflict with any of the scripture I used, it just doesn't fit with what is generally accepted by posters on this thread.

Ecclesiastes 9 is a classical example of 'proof' shown that the dead are aware of nothing. However, Ecclesiastes is OT and sure, prior to Christ people had to sleep in the dust because Jesus had not saved mankind yet and the Kingdom of Heaven had not been established yet.

Our spirit will have returned to God. Believers are assured that the soul will not perish, but will be reunited once again with our spirit and becone a "living spirit". 1 Cor tells us we will be "raised a spiritual body". Paul never mentions this will happen at death because he has already told us this will happen at the Last Trump. Not one at a time, but "together"
The body returns to the dust and the spirit returns to the God that gave it..Yes.

Nowhere does the bible ever say that the spirit is re-united with anything. In fact it specifically says the opposite.

1 Cor 15
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Don't ask me how the mechanics of this works but the bible definately states:

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

AFTER the natural comes the spiritual.
That is what is shown here:
2 cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

We go to Heaven after the earthly natural life is over and that heavenly situation is eternal. After eternity there is no time left for any spirit to return and re-unite with any natural body.

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Sorry, but it says exactly what it says, nothing more, nothing less. How could God raise anyone who is already with Him???
It most assuredly says what it says so let's dissect what that actually is.

Just using verse 16, it shows exactly what I have said here. At the trump the DEAD in Christ, or the believers who died before this time(parousia) wil be raised before those who are alive and remain on earth at the time of that parousia.
So this is the resurrection of the dead. Actually it is the Great White throne judgment of Rev 20 or the separation of the sheep and the goats as per Matthew 25. This is also at the time of the harvest of the earth as we read about in Matthew 13, but let's not digress there but continue with 1 Thess 4.

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

Here is the people who sleep again. Those who have died before the parousia. Before the coming of the son of man on the clouds which is AFTER the Great Tribulation.

14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Jesus is not bringing their earthly bodies with Him, this is only that spirit that has returned to God. Flesh and blood can not enter the Kingdom of God.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

I don't know if you realize it or not but a few years ago people used to quote verses 14 to 18. Lately most do as you did and only quote 16 and 17. Verse 15 tells a different story. The pretrib rapturists used this until they came to understand this 'caught up' thing is actually not AFTER the trib but AFTER the parousia as well.

Thats a side trip from our topic. In verse 15 it tells us that WE who are alive at the coming will not be raised until AFTER the dead who were asleep. An example of who that is is Daniel 12:1-3.
There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your peopleâ€â€everyone whose name is found written in the bookâ€â€will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

The main thing for our discussion is that WE who are alive are raised AFTER the people who sleep.
Back to 1 Thess 4
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The above verse explains agian what was said before.

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever

THen it explains what happens. Those alive at the time of the parousia are raised up AFTER those who sleep to the same place that the DEAD were raised to. In the air and they remain there forever. Not on earth in an earthly body but in the air, Heaven in a spiritual body. It is specific that the WE who are alive at the parousia are AFTER the dead who sleep. It doesn't say at the same time it says after. It doesn't say that they all are caught up at the same time, it says AFTER. They eventually are 'together' in the air but NO, it does not say they are caught up together at the same time it says AFTER.
Example: We put the black horse in the pasture, 10 years later we put the white horse in the pasture and they are in the pasture together.

It doesn't say how long after those who sleep are raised. We have to rely on other verses to determine that. Here is one verse to show this.

In Revelation 14:15 to end of chapter it discusses the wrath of God and the harvest of the earth which goes back to Matthew 13. Just as John starts to watch this event from his Heavenly perch John is told to write this:
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

Those who die AFTER the parousia are blessed. That takes us once again back to Martha. She was told she would LIVE even tho she died. Spiritual life even tho she physically died. It was instant because she would never die. Jesus said so.

John
 

Vic C.

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My interpretation of the bible is that the last trump was in the first century. At that time there was a spiritual resurrection of the dead. Those dead had slept in the dust since their personal death and were raised in a spiritual resurrection to the Heavenly realm at that last trumpet or the parousia. As 1 Cor 15:51 says at the last trump we not longer have to sleep. After that last trump which was in the first century people are resurrected to eternal life at their personal death.
I'm not sure, but that is a preterist's view. no? If so, then I can understand where you are coming from now and why you believe and interpret scripture the way you do.

Peace,
Vic
 
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noblej6

Guest
Hi Vic,

My interpretation is preterist based, but not the same as either partial or full preterism.

Full preterists feel that everything is over in 70 AD. I don't , I feel that the bible tells us that Jesus returns to each of us when we die, making it a future second coming. Partial preterists do not believe that resurrections took place in 70 AD , but they feel that was the great tribulation and Jesus came just to pass judgment on the Jerusalem people.

I would prefer to be called a bibl-ist? or something like that.

John
 

guibox

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Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
noble's ultimate problem from which all other confusion comes from is two fold:

A. That the 'parousia' was spiritual and happened by 70 A.D
B. That from then on, our 'spiritual body' occurs at death

There are many errors that are created here due to this thinking

1) All the language (the mere description of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16) speaks not of a 'secret coming' but of an earth shattering, visible, audial and catastrophic event (couple this with Matthew 24 and we see that it couldn't have happened 'secretly' or at 70 A.D)

2) We must conclude that 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about the same thing and that the graves will literally be opened and the dead will come forth. This is supported numerous times by scripture throughout the OT and the NT.

3) The conclusion that the 'spirit goes back to God who gave it' is talking about the 'spritual body' in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 is a gross musundertanding of the language of the bible in terms of what the 'spirit is and ultimately false:

- this 'spirit goes back to God who gave it' is spoken of in Job and
Ecclesiastes long before the Messiah came and allowed this 'spiritual
body' to happen
- the term 'spirit' here is not referring to a 'spiritual body' but to
'pneuma/ruach' which is the spark of life that was given at creation

4) The ultimate problem is that nowhere does it say in the scripture that from now after the secret parousia, 1 Corinthians 15 is fulfilled every time someone dies.


As a matter of fact, according to noble's interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15, ALL of this would have had to occur at Paul's time for 1 Corinthians 15 is not a fulfillment of end times but of the PAROUSIA. If then, this parousia occured 'secretly' in Paul's time, then the language of 1 Corinthians 15 can apply ONLY to the people of Paul's time, and not to everyone who dies after that.

In other words, noble wants to have it both ways. If all of Paul's talk applies to the parousia which occurred in Paul's day, then EVERYTHING he speaks about occurred only at that day.

noble's attempts to interpret scripture the way he does negates much of the biblical flow of salvation history and culmination of the Messianic kingdom at the 'end of the ages'. It also ignores context and the linguistic nature of the passages. It also breaks up the continuity between the OT and the NT.

Sorry noble, you are incorrect in your interpretation of the parousia and you general understanding of the nature of man throughout the scriptures.

Also, Sputnik, I believe that Paul did indeed think that Christ would come back in his lifetime and the 'we' spoken about is the NT Christians. However, that doesn't mean that Christ DID come back (as noble is trying to say) or that Paul didn't believe that he could die first and be resurrected (2 Timothy 5:6-8 brings this out). Paul constantly speaks about his 'desire' to even avoid death and be translated (Philippians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:1-8).

Paul had many hopes but that doesn't mean they were all gospel truths or would be fulfilled according to his desires.
 
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noblej6

Guest
Hi guibox,

We have made a gigantic leap forward. You have the correct understanding of what I was trying to put across.

A. That the 'parousia' was spiritual and happened by 70 A.D
B. That from then on, our 'spiritual body' occurs at death

Now as you read my biblical reasoning keep those two points in mind and you will see that everything fits with scripture. It does not fit with certain man made doctrine but it fits with scripture as written, as read off the page, in most cases.

) All the language (the mere description of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16) speaks not of a 'secret coming' but of an earth shattering, visible, audial and catastrophic event (couple this with Matthew 24 and we see that it couldn't have happened 'secretly' or at 70 A.D)
Looking at this with scripture ensures us that it has no choice but to be iinvisible.

Jesus would return as He left. How did He leave? On the clouds invisible to most except a chosen few.

Acts 10

40"God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Does everyone not consider the life promised after this earthly trip is over is ETERNAL? If not we have to start a long ways back in the bible.

So are thing s eternal visible? No, they are not as it clearly states right here:
2 Cor 4:18

18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The coming described in 1 Thess 4 is definately visible to the dead, but not to those who are alive and remain.

Here are verses to prove that when you see the second coming of Christ you are stone cold dead.

Matthew 16

28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Notice that only SOME of those ther will physically live until they see the coming of His kingdom. The implication being that everyone else tha sees it is dead.

Heres another verse that backs that up:
Hebrews 9

27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

Jesus judges so I assume it is Jesus who informs you of said judgment...AFTER death.

So secretly??? I wouldn't call it secretly, Jesus has told me all about it thru the words of the Book, but definately invisible to mortal man, because only three people did not taste death before they saw the coming of the son in glory.

2) We must conclude that 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about the same thing and that the graves will literally be opened and the dead will come forth. This is supported numerous times by scripture throughout the OT and the NT.
Sorry but I can't conclude that because it does not conform to what is written in John 5:25-29

John 5
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

This is the resurrection of the dead. The resurrection of those who sleep in the graves prior to the saving work of Jesus Christ.

RThe key to the full meaning of this is the timeframe of when it happened. The answer to that is in verse 25 and the time is NOW, not meaning NOW as you read it but NOW as Jesus said it.
3) The conclusion that the 'spirit goes back to God who gave it' is talking about the 'spritual body' in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 is a gross musundertanding of the language of the bible in terms of what the 'spirit is and ultimately false:

- this 'spirit goes back to God who gave it' is spoken of in Job and
Ecclesiastes long before the Messiah came and allowed this 'spiritual
body' to happen
- the term 'spirit' here is not referring to a 'spiritual body' but to
'pneuma/ruach' which is the spark of life that was given at creation
Well thought out points, but there are other conclusions.

The spirit goes back to Gosd to do whatever He chooses with it. Prior to the parousia and the cross God chose to let the spirit, the soul, the inner being, the whatever, sleep in the grave waiiting for the resurrection to heaven of the dead. So the bible describes this sleeping in all references prior to the last trumpet and then in 1 Cor 15 it says this:

51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep,...............

You all agree that there is no more sleeping after the parousia so the only difficulty that can be here is that you don't agree that the parousia is past, having occurred in the first century.
4) The ultimate problem is that nowhere does it say in the scripture that from now after the secret parousia, 1 Corinthians 15 is fulfilled every time someone dies.
Yes, it does. It starts here:
Rev 14:13
13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'"

Just look thru that chapter and take note what is happening immediately after John is told to write that. The believers who are blessed are those who die AFTER the parousia.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:52 am Post subject:
noble's ultimate problem from which all other confusion comes from is two fold:

A. That the 'parousia' was spiritual and happened by 70 A.D
B. That from then on, our 'spiritual body' occurs at death

There are many errors that are created here due to this thinking

1) All the language (the mere description of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16) speaks not of a 'secret coming' but of an earth shattering, visible, audial and catastrophic event (couple this with Matthew 24 and we see that it couldn't have happened 'secretly' or at 70 A.D)

2) We must conclude that 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about the same thing and that the graves will literally be opened and the dead will come forth. This is supported numerous times by scripture throughout the OT and the NT.

3) The conclusion that the 'spirit goes back to God who gave it' is talking about the 'spritual body' in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 is a gross musundertanding of the language of the bible in terms of what the 'spirit is and ultimately false:

- this 'spirit goes back to God who gave it' is spoken of in Job and
Ecclesiastes long before the Messiah came and allowed this 'spiritual
body' to happen
- the term 'spirit' here is not referring to a 'spiritual body' but to
'pneuma/ruach' which is the spark of life that was given at creation

4) The ultimate problem is that nowhere does it say in the scripture that from now after the secret parousia, 1 Corinthians 15 is fulfilled every time someone dies.

As a matter of fact, according to noble's interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15, ALL of this would have had to occur at Paul's time for 1 Corinthians 15 is not a fulfillment of end times but of the PAROUSIA. If then, this parousia occured 'secretly' in Paul's time, then the language of 1 Corinthians 15 can apply ONLY to the people of Paul's time, and not to everyone who dies after that.
The problem here is that you are assuming that parousia is the end of time. It isn't, it is the end of the old covenant. Life continues on earth as before except now the Kingdomn of Heaven is fully operational and people can recieve their inheritance or their eternal 'life' at death instead of having to sleep in the grave waiting for the last trumpet and the resurrection of the dead that acoompanies that last trumpoer.

Those who die in Christ from now on will be blessed.

1 Cor 15 is describing the resurrection body. It applys to Daniel who had to sleep in the dust, it applies to Martha who was one of the first to "NEVER DIE", it applies to you and I who hopefully have a bit of earthly time yet befiore we do die. The second coming for all I mentioned there.

In other words, noble wants to have it both ways. If all of Paul's talk applies to the parousia which occurred in Paul's day, then EVERYTHING he speaks about occurred only at that day.
That would be true IF I had said that, but I didn't.
The second coming is at the time of each individual death. That process had it's beginning with the parousia of the first century. Prior to that parousia of the first century those who physically died had to sleep in the dust aware of nothing until the resurrection of the dead which was at the time of that parousia.

noble's attempts to interpret scripture the way he does negates much of the biblical flow of salvation history and culmination of the Messianic kingdom at the 'end of the ages'. It also ignores context and the linguistic nature of the passages. It also breaks up the continuity between the OT and the NT.
Then let's look at these mistakes of mine. If they are real mistakes I wouldn't be able to provide additional scripture on it as I just have above.

SO again read thru my post with those two points in mind and se if I conflict with any verses.

A. That the 'parousia' was spiritual and happened by 70 A.D
B. That from then on, our 'spiritual body' occurs at death
John
 

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