Do we receive whatever things we ask in prayer, believing?

[john darling]

I feel like we are not getting on the same page. The distinction I'm trying to make is between "not answering a prayer" verses saying "No." I see these as two different things and I get the impression maybe you are equating them?

Hi WIP

It may be just a difference in how we perceive God saying, "no". It seems like we both agree that God at least has the right to say no, but that it's just a matter of how he chooses to express it. I am suggesting the "no" could be as simple as silence on the subject (which I think many people take to be God ignoring them) or, in cases of a prayer for some kind of physically perceivable outcome (like a cancer patient being healed) "no" could be as simple as the healing not being performed, without any kind of consoling response like a voice from heaven saying, "I say no".

I guess I'm not clear on how you came to see from my responses that God ignores prayer requests, since the implication seems to be that God ignores because he does not care. If that is the impression you got then I'm fine to clarify that I strongly disagree with that conclusion.

As for how to know when God has said "no" I think that's probably up to each individual to work out between them and God, though, again, in the case of healing a cancer patient it's probably safe to assume the answer was "no" when the patient eventually dies (assuming the prayer request was specifically for physical healing).

 

[john darling]

Why would we hate what the Lord has blessed us with to care for our family and share with others?

Hi Deborah. I'd like to elaborate a bit more on this comment from you. First off, money isn't about caring and it's certainly not about sharing. It's a system of exchange and the principles are quite simple. You perform a service for someone and they give you money for it. If you do not perform the service they do not give the money. If you do not have the money you do not get the service. It is easy for a sincere person to see the difference between working for payment and working for love. Because they are opposing principles it is impossible to do both at once.

Shortly before Jesus' teachings on living by faith in Matthew 6:10, he gives the "Lord's prayer" in which he says we should pray, "thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven". In Heaven, they do not expect payment for love. How can we sincerly pray this prayer and then go back to working for a worldly system of love for hire? This is why Jesus explained about the two masters.

One master is God. The other master is mammon (money and the things money can buy). When you are hired into a worldly system of working for money, do you stipulate that part of your job must include the freedom to preach the gospel whenever you feel it is appropriate? There is no monetary employer who would agree to such terms. Some may turn a blind eye to the times when you say, "God bless you" to a customer on their way out or give you a bit of space in other ways, but no employer will agree that "preaching the gospel" should be an official part of your job duties because you are not being hired to preach the gospel. You are being hired to perform whatever duties for which the employer agreed to pay you to perform. This means that any time you spend doing a different job (i.e. preaching the gospel) is time which you are cheating on your employer.

It's the same with working for the other master; God. Any time we give working for the systems of the world is time in which we are cheating on God. In either case we must work, but God is looking at the motivations for why we work. He does not want greed, fear, or materialism to be the motivation, but that's exactly what happens when we believe that we will die if we do not work for monetary gain.

 

[john darling]

It says we cannot "serve" both God and mammon and again, does not say we cannot "work" for money and still serve God. There is a big difference..

Can you explain what the big difference is?

 

[john darling]

And so look at the actual words that Paul said and reconcile the two

Interesting. What did Paul say about tent-making for money?

 

[Brother Mike]

I rarely get involved in discussions like this so my apologies ahead of time if I drop out. I must admit that your challenge was fun.

To the question of when God says no I found these. Oh, by the way, I agree with you that if you ask "according to His will" the answer is not going to be no. My point all along has been that He always answers the believer. You seem to be saying he sometimes doesn't answer a believer.
.

Sometimes these challenges can be fun. No, Jesus did not get to walk away from the cross, He even knew God's will about it as He explained it to his Disciples. We assume the answer was NO.

Moses kept asking to go to the promise land, God said stop bother me about it.

My point was that as believers, we should take some time and consideration with God before actually asking something. Every prayer should be Yes, it's on the way.

As a WOF "Word of Faith" person, I had to learn some hard lessons that you just don't command something in Jesus name and expect it so, even if you have scriptures to back it up. It's not that God did not want to help, but it is His way, and not my own understanding on how He is going to help.

So now when something comes up, I say, Show me what to do, and what to ask and believe for. Your word says this, and I'll go with that and get direction.

Prayers get answered every time this way.

Then again, Israel got a king, we want to avoid those situations also, and seeking the Lord, getting scriptures before asking, can help us greatly.

Thank you WIP, and thank you for going for the challenge. I was not saying your wrong, I just wanted to think about what it was you were saying. I did agree with you, I thought of those scriptures also, but I think we can avoid asking the wrong things and avoid being disappointed waiting on God, when we should have been finding out what God wants us to do.

Be blessed.

 

[Brother Mike]

Maybe I can help. If (and correct me if I misunderstand) you are referring to Mar 11:24 when saying Jesus would have to be wrong if God said "not now", not so. The verse, in part, states "and ye shall have them".....doesn't say when so a "not now" could easily be a possibility there.

We are told to walk by faith, not by sight. By faith, we see we have it, the answer is there and it's done.

It's sort of like someone sending you a check for a million dollars, it's in the mail. You can say I am a millionaire, as the check is in your name, but not arrived yet.

A person has faith when they say, I have tomatoes growing out back. You go back there and there are only little plants, no tomatoes. In that persons mind though, He has tomatoes and they will be there.

For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees? But if we hope for what is still unseen by us, we wait for it with patience and composure.
(Rom 8:24-25)


Have fun.
Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

I thought of those scriptures also, but I think we can avoid asking the wrong things and avoid being disappointed waiting on God, when we should have been finding out what God wants us to do.

I agree with this statement.
What I think it all comes down to.....
Is our desire to be in God's will for us, bigger than our desire to receive what we think we need.

 

[Deborah13]

Interesting. What did Paul say about tent-making for money?

I sure you can reconcile the two scriptures. I have and I have peace about that reconciliation.

 

[Brother Mike]

I agree with this statement.
What I think it all comes down to.....
Is our desire to be in God's will for us, bigger than our desire to receive what we think we need.

That's It!!! More time seeking God, less time asking for stuff you thought you needed. If God had plans for you to go and work for this company you never thought about, and not even related to the field of work your looking for, and your asking and confessing to work for the other high paying company.............................. Your going to be asking and believing for a long time, then it ends in a post on some forum, just like this one.

Mike.

 

[The_Epsicle]

That's It!!! More time seeking God, less time asking for stuff you thought you needed. If God had plans for you to go and work for this company you never thought about, and not even related to the field of work your looking for, and your asking and confessing to work for the other high paying company.............................. Your going to be asking and believing for a long time, then it ends in a post on some forum, just like this one.

Thanks for that clarification Mike, now I see where you're coming from and can say without feeling at odds with scripture that I agree with you. Before when we were talking I thought you were arguing for absolutely anything you ask in prayer(like a flying giraffe) and God would grant it, because of your clarification here I think I can say our views on prayer are different, but not incredibly different.

 

[Kenny_ms]

We are told to walk by faith, not by sight. By faith, we see we have it, the answer is there and it's done.

It's sort of like someone sending you a check for a million dollars, it's in the mail. You can say I am a millionaire, as the check is in your name, but not arrived yet.

A person has faith when they say, I have tomatoes growing out back. You go back there and there are only little plants, no tomatoes. In that persons mind though, He has tomatoes and they will be there.

For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees? But if we hope for what is still unseen by us, we wait for it with patience and composure.
(Rom 8:24-25)


Have fun.
Mike.

Have fun? I could if I let myself but I see it more as duty, and not fun at all.

How does that answer the "not now" subject I was addressing? Was all that you just wrote an acknowledgement that WIP may be right about god saying "not now" so let's change the subject now?

Mike, I hate saying things like that but your reply seemed so weird. Sure we "wait for it with patience and composure" once we admit WIP was correct as the reason we wait is because God may actually say "not now". And saying not now does not make Jesus wrong as in:

So if God would ever say, NOT NOW, then Jesus was wrong.

Can you explain this WIP so I can understand better? With scripture I must have missed.

Direct question, Mike, do you now agree, God sometimes says "not now"? It seems you do but with that squirrely reply, IDK? See, I have some important prayers that haven't been granted as of yet but I still have hope they will. Also, there has to be others like me so, that's why this is important to me and why I challenge your saying:

God would never say "NOT NOW" that would violate what Jesus said.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thanks for that clarification Mike, now I see where you're coming from and can say without feeling at odds with scripture that I agree with you. Before when we were talking I thought you were arguing for absolutely anything you ask in prayer(like a flying giraffe) and God would grant it, because of your clarification here I think I can say our views on prayer are different, but not incredibly different.

If you get to the place to ask, and have it granted to fly a Giraffe, call me, I want to come see that.

There is never prayer failure, if we take the time to find out the will of God, and follow what He said do.

Now, the long post start on what God's will is. We have some clear things though.

If a man does not work, He shall not eat. God wants us to put our hands to something, to work. So now I can go take that to God, tell him what he said, and ask to be shown clearly what to apply for and the place he wants me at.

It's not faith in the Job I want, it's faith in just the Job I am suppose to be at. It's not about amount of pay either. I have God's will on working, and all the power to bring that to pass as a sure thing is available. If, I take the time to follow, however God gets where across to me.

Call me when you get that Giraffe started up.

blessings

Mike.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Can you explain what the big difference is?

I was very careful to do an in depth explanation in the post you reply too. Even repeated myself a few times.

Would you look again and if you can't see the difference still, I'll give it one more shot. However after the in depth explanation I gave already, honestly...I'm thinking you don't want to see the difference.

 

[john darling]

If you get paid in money in service to the Church, you are doing precisely the same thing as any of us that are paid in money, you are working for it, you are getting wages for your work. Your work makes you no better than those that, for instance, feed you by growing food for you to spend your wages on.

Yes I quite agree with you here. As I see it, the issue was never about work. It was about our motives; why we work. Work for love vs work for money. Whether it's evangelism, pastoring, discipling or plumbing, architecture, or being a janitor; the deciding factor is the motivation for why all those people choose to work. Do they work for love or do they work for money? That is the point Jesus made about the two masters; God or money.

As for the distinction between work and serve, I think you've again misunderstood the verse in question. Let us pretend, just for the sake of this example, that your original assumption was correct and Jesus was referring to the two masters as God and Satan. Would your distinction still make a difference? Imagine claiming that it's fine to work for Satan as long as you're not serving him. This is what you've done in the case of mammon, but because mammon includes things like money and material necessities, you've somehow seen "serve" and "work" in a different way. If you are willing to claim there is a difference between serving and working for Satan, I still won't agree with your assessment, but at least I'll know that your reasoning is consistent.

Where would you be without the farmer? ...one of the very people you suddenly got shy about saying they work for/serve mammon because they aren't in service of the Church.

Working for love IS the work of the church, whether it's farming or whatever. But as for the question of "where would you be without the farmer" I think the same answer Jesus gave to Satan is appropriate here, too; "man does not live by bread alone" (Matthew 4:4). If your faith is in the farmer, or anyone because of what they can do (or not do) for you materially, then how will you ever be able to lay your life down?

The farmer works for a wage but that in itself doesn't mean they "work for" as you put it or "serve" mammon.

We're all taught from birth that money makes the world go round. Very few of us get any kind of alternative influence. We're taught not only to depend on money but that money will bring a more happy and comfortable life. Food comes from money (where would we be without the farmer who works for wages, right?). Clothing comes from money. Everything comes from money. We are saturated in it to the point that most of us genuinely believe that we'd die without it. But really think on that for a moment; is it true that humanity would die without money? Because God is the giver of life, he is the only thing in this existence that we cannot live without and yet somehow we've come to see it as mammon instead.

The majority of the world operates on a "fiat" system, meaning that the money we use is not backed up by any physical wealth. Money only has as much value as we choose to believe it has. The money itself does nothing. It does not work or produce. It simply acts as a system to manipulate people into working. This is why motivation (rather than the money or the work itself) is so important. Money only exists because people choose to believe it is necessary. Money is not life or death. It is a choice.

Sometimes that choice is not a result of rational, critical thought, but rather the product of years of indoctrination. When someone comes along saying, "hey, why not just work for each other rather than for little bits of paper and metal" they sound like oddballs, not because the ideal really is odd, but because it's so different from what the person has been taught to see as normal. Working for money is normal. Working for love is oddball. This is why "friendship with the world is enmity with God". (James 4:4)

I personally believe this is what Paul was referring to when he talked about the carnally minded person who can't discern spiritual issues (1 Cor 2:14). I think it's why Jesus quoted Isiah when he said, "seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear" (Matthew 13:14-15) and "this people draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Matthew 15:8). And it's why Jesus asked, "why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me" (Luke 6:46)?

 

[john darling]

Where does it say that the people in the church quit the jobs? Paul, Priscella and Ananias were tentmakers.

And so look at the actual words that Paul said and reconcile the two.

After you made these two posts, I asked you to let us know what Paul said about tent-making for money.

I sure you can reconcile the two scriptures. I have and I have peace about that reconciliation.

Isn't it part of the ToS that you need to provide supporting scriptural references in this section of the forum? If I'm mistaken about that please do let me know.

Anyway, the reason I ask is because I'm not aware of any teaching from Paul about using our time to make tents for money. I can hardly compare this teaching to what Jesus' teaching about serving two masters if I don't know of it's existence. This is why I asked you to let me know what you were referencing. I'm still hoping you will now that I've clarified my ignorance on the issue.

 

[The_Epsicle]

Anyway, the reason I ask is because I'm not aware of any teaching from Paul about using our time to make tents for money. I can hardly compare this teaching to what Jesus' teaching about serving two masters if I don't know of it's existence. This is why I asked you to let me know what you were referencing. I'm still hoping you will now that I've clarified my ignorance on the issue.

Paul worked making tents by trade before and shortly after his conversion.

"After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade. And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks." - Acts 18:1-4

Later when he wrote 1st Corinthians he was still making tents:

"This is my defense to those who would examine me. Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?" - 1 Corinthians 9:3-7

However when he wrote 2nd Corinthians he was not working, but was being supplied by the Christians in Macedonia:

"Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia." - 2 Corinthians 11:7-10

 

[Deborah13]

Isn't it part of the ToS that you need to provide supporting scriptural references in this section of the forum? If I'm mistaken about that please do let me know.

You are correct, thank you for reminding me.
Act 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
G5078
τέχνη
technē
tekh'-nay
From the base of G5088; art (as productive), that is, (specifically) a trade, or (generally) skill: - art, craft, occupation.

This is why I asked you to let me know what you were referencing. I'm still hoping you will now that I've clarified my ignorance on the issue.

And....
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Yes I quite agree with you here. As I see it, the issue was never about work.

Actually it was, John. This is what cut me loose on you, and your following comment addressed and followed Debs comment of actually getting a better job than she had prayed for.

I always kinda wonder how it is that people see a worldly job as an answer to prayer, especially when the answer to the prayer seems to point to greater dependence on the worldly system of love for wages.

I thought the comment was cold, untrue, rude and IMO, a big mistake to say such a thing. And even though
Deb doesn't need me to defend her, we as guys have tendency there, so, that made it even worse and maybe the reason I jumped in on your comment to another poster, but that aside, my reaction would have probably been pretty much the same no matter who you said it too. In short, I think you messed up there in the way you worded that .....assuming, or at best, strongly indicating someone here has a love for wages because they don't work the job you see fit, a job like you have. Also, for obvious reasons, it very much looked like you were putting yourself on a pedestal as I read on and saw you worked in the service of the Church directly.

Ok, so that covers the first few words out of your mouth.... I'll never get through your reply to me at this rate lol. But seriously, I thought that an in depth, being honest with the main issue I had might be a good way to start. I appreciate the reply and I'll get to the rest of it shortly.

 

[Deborah13]

Deb doesn't need me to defend her,

Still I appreciate it. Thanks.
At the time that God blessed me so graciously, actually I should say us, my husband had been in vehicle accident. Our car insurance company was giving him a small amount of money weekly. The doctor wouldn't release him to return to his job, he's a heavy equipment operator and often had to do quite a bit of heavy lifting as well. His shoulder and been severely injured. As it turned out he was out of work for a little over a year, in physical therapy. There was a need and the Lord met that need.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Still I appreciate it. Thanks.
At the time that God blessed me so graciously, actually I should say us, my husband had been in vehicle accident. Our car insurance company was giving him a small amount of money weekly. The doctor wouldn't release him to return to his job, he's a heavy equipment operator and often had to do quite a bit of heavy lifting as well. His shoulder and been severely injured. As it turned out he was out of work for a little over a year, in physical therapy. There was a need and the Lord met that need.

My pleasure, Deb and wow! not only a better job but right when it was needed.