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Bible Study Do You Know Where the New Covenant is, in the Bible ?

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evanman wrote:
God made promises to Abraham and Isaac--these were not Jews!

Jay T:
Better read the whole verse.

ddub: The fact of the matter is that we are under the same covenant that Isaac is under;

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

God Bless!
 
Jay T said:
evanman said:
God made promises to Abraham and Isaac--these were not Jews!
Better read the whole verse.

Abraham and Isaac were not Jews, I find no where in the scriptures that state the contrary!

To be a Jew one must be a descendent of Israel.
 
ddubsolo85 said:
ddub: Exactly. In Christ, there is no difference between one or another. Christ is no respecter of persons. Yet, Jews were given promises not given to Gentiles.
Then came Peter to Him, and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him ?" Til 7 times ?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until 7 times....but, until 70 times 7", (Matthew 18:21,22).

Jesus always chose his words carefully.
His response to Peter [contains] an important lesson .
70 times 7 = 490....which is a perfect reference to the 70 week Prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 !

The 70 week period in Daniel 9:24-27 represented a second opportunity for the chosen nation to demonstrate faithfulness to God.

Israel's first temple had been destroyed and her children carried to Babylon because she had rejected the warnings God had given by His Prophets.
Yet through deivine mercy and love, another opportunity would be granted to come back into harmony with God.
Israel returned to her land (after the captivity period ended) and build a second temple.

Though Israel sinned at 'least' 7 times....God's forgiveness towards that nation was extended to [70 times 7].
Near the close of this period,someone greater than the prophets would come.
Then, Israel's destiny as a nation, would be determined by her response to God's Son !


Near the end of Jesus Christ's earthly life, He beheld Jerusalem: Luke 19:41 "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

When Jesus spoke to Peter about forgiveness being extended, 'until 70 times 7', He knew that the 70 week prophecy which says: Daniel 9:24 ["Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy".
was about to end !
He knew the significance of this prophecy to Israel as a nation, to Jerusalem, and to the second temple (which was to be destroyed, in 39 years).

Matthew chapters 21--23 reveals the sad, and final, and explosive encounters, between Jesus and the religious leaders of the nation.

During the week prior to Christ's crucifixion, Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that bought and sold in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves. And said unto them:
Matthew 21:13 "And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves".
Notice: Jesus called the temple....'my house'.

BUT A CHANGE WOULD COME.....


In the morning as he returned into the city, he was hungry. And when he saw a fig tree, he came to it, and found no fruit on the tree, but leaves only....and said unto it, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforth....forever !
And the soon after saying that the fig tree withered away, (verse 18,19).

Here the fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The 70 times 7 countdown, was nearing its close.

When he was come into the temple, the chief priests and elders of the peoplecame unto him as he was teaching (verse 23).
Their plan was to expose Jesus as a false Messiah,and then put him to death.
Jesus told those leaders a parable that outlines the entire history of Israel in one sweep:

Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons".
Did they realize what they were saying ?
Hardly !
They had just pronounced their own doom !

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof".
(Do you understand the reason, the gospel, went to the gentiles ?)

Jesus Christ said it !
The Kingdom of God would soon be 'TAKEN' away, from an unbelieving Israel in the flesh...and given to another nation.
WHY ?
Because of their sin...their final sin, of crucifying the 'SON', (Verses 38,39).

Now, in Christ's next...parable, Jesus outlines the same historical sequences, but with added details of the destruction of Jerusalem....and the call of the gentiles.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and [my] fatlings [are] killed, and all things [are] ready: come unto the marriage.
22:5 But they made light of [it], and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated [them] spitefully, and slew [them].
22:7 But when the king heard [thereof], he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city".

This literally took place when Jerusalem and the second temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled that said: "The people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary",(Daniel 9:26).

Continuing the parable, Jesus said: Matthew 22:8 "Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage".
This represents the call of the gentiles, at the end of the 70 weeks.

Matthew chapter 23 contains the Saviour's final words in tears and agony over his chosen people.
8 times...during His last public exchange with Israel's leaders, Jesus cried out: "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites !"

Finally, with a broken heart, the Son of God declared: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stones them, which are sent to thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wing, and ye would not !"
BEHOLD, [ your house ] is left unto you desolate", (Matthew 23:37.38).

This time God was not saying: "You blew it. Let's try again"
Israel's decision to crucify Christ, would have permanent consequences !
The result was a searing separation---a painful, divine divorce.

Then Jesus went out, and departed from the temple.
Now....did you notice that Jesus changed from calling the temple...'My House'...to ...your house ?

Matthew 24:1 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to show him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down".

In 70 AD the 2nd Temple was destroyed by the Romans. Such was the results of the Divine Divorce.







I'm dedicated to the 3 Angel's messages of Revelation 14:6-12....which is the "Everlasting Gospel".
 
7 X 70

Jay T said:
Then came Peter to Him, and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him ?" Til 7 times ? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until 7 times....but, until 70 times 7", (Matthew 18:21,22).

Jesus always chose his words carefully. His response to Peter [contains] an important lesson. 70 times 7 = 490....which is a perfect reference to the 70 week Prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 !
Thank the Lord for revealing another 'GEM' of thought.
A piece of the puzzle to connect with some other thoughts on this topic.

'Number' is so closely tied to "man" and "beast" (Rev 13:18), I am moved to
look for the spiritual meaning as 'hidden' behind (apart from) the number/s.

Daniel 9:24 (seventy weeks) in this case is talking about
  • ....complete forgivness, Matthew 18:21,22
    ....a sabbath without end, Gen 2:1-3
    ....'seal up vision and prophecy', 'anoint the most holy place'. Dan 9:24
    ....the 'bondservants' are sealed in their foreheads. Rev 7:3,4
...........R
 
Not only did Jesus' blood confirm the New Covenant, but Christ Himself is this covenant.

Christ is all things to men, including His being God's new covenant.

cj
 
Jay T:
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof".
(Do you understand the reason, the gospel, went to the gentiles ?)

Yes, I do;

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

It is to provoke Israel to jealousy. God didn't make Israel jealous to abandon them. Paul makes it quite clear that God isn't finished with Israel.

Jay T:
Jesus Christ said it !
The Kingdom of God would soon be 'TAKEN' away, from an unbelieving Israel in the flesh...and given to another nation.
WHY ?
Because of their sin...their final sin, of crucifying the 'SON', (Verses 38,39).

Their "final" sin? Where is that in scripture? And exactly what do you mean by that? And they weren't alone in crucifying the 'SON'. They had plenty of assistance from Gentiles, wouldn't you agree?

Jay T:
Now, in Christ's next...parable, Jesus outlines the same historical sequences, but with added details of the destruction of Jerusalem....and the call of the gentiles.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and [my] fatlings [are] killed, and all things [are] ready: come unto the marriage.
22:5 But they made light of [it], and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated [them] spitefully, and slew [them].
22:7 But when the king heard [thereof], he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city".

Do you see this as God being finished with Israel as a nation?

Jay T:
This literally took place when Jerusalem and the second temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled that said: "The people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary",(Daniel 9:26).

Continuing the parable, Jesus said: Matthew 22:8 "Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage".
This represents the call of the gentiles, at the end of the 70 weeks.

Matthew chapter 23 contains the Saviour's final words in tears and agony over his chosen people.
8 times...during His last public exchange with Israel's leaders, Jesus cried out: "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites !"

Finally, with a broken heart, the Son of God declared: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stones them, which are sent to thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wing, and ye would not !"
BEHOLD, [ your house ] is left unto you desolate", (Matthew 23:37.38).

This time God was not saying: "You blew it. Let's try again"
Israel's decision to crucify Christ, would have permanent consequences !
The result was a searing separation---a painful, divine divorce.

And where do you read this? "...a divine divorce"??? Come now.

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is written AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ. If they're divorced, then what would be the point of a covenant? There is no divorce, the Bible says no such thing. Those that want to be something they're not in the Bible find a divorce. But that's not biblical.

Jay T:
Then Jesus went out, and departed from the temple.
Now....did you notice that Jesus changed from calling the temple...'My House'...to ...your house ?

Matthew 24:1 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to show him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down".

In 70 AD the 2nd Temple was destroyed by the Romans. Such was the results of the Divine Divorce.

The Bible says absolutely nothing about a "divine divorce". There is no such thing. The Bible is clear that God isn't finished with Israel, and that His covenant with Israel is everlasting. There is no disputing these facts made clear by scripture.

Jay T:
I'm dedicated to the 3 Angel's messages of Revelation 14:6-12....which is the "Everlasting Gospel".

How do you see this supporting your poisition?

God Bless!
 
God's covenant is with Israel, however they are not all Israel who are the circumcision in the flesh!

Not all jews are counted amongst the chosen!--ONLY those Jews that confess that Y'shua is Messiah, the Son of the Living God, it is these that are the true Jews!

God's purpose and plan is that the Jews confess Yeshua as Adonai and gentiles also enter into this same relationship
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
 
God's covenant is with Israel, however they are not all Israel who are the circumcision in the flesh!

Not all jews are counted amongst the chosen!--ONLY those Jews that confess that Y'shua is Messiah, the Son of the Living God, it is these that are the true Jews!

I couldn't agree with you more. You are exactly correct. However, you must first be a Jew in the flesh in order to be a Jew in the spirit. Gentiles do not become Jews, and vice-versa. Once a Gentile, always a Gentile. Once a Jew, always a Jew. But being a Jew does not make one a spiritual Jew no more than being a Gentile makes one a Christian.

evan:
God's purpose and plan is that the Jews confess Yeshua as Adonai and gentiles also enter into this same relationship
Quote:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Agreed. However, that is God's purpose and plan under the Old Covenant. Gentiles were grafted into what already existed. The Old Covenant was already in place. The New Covenant is yet to be put in place.

God Bless!
 
evanman said:
God's covenant is with Israel, however they are not all Israel who are the circumcision in the flesh!

Not all jews are counted amongst the chosen!--ONLY those Jews that confess that Y'shua is Messiah, the Son of the Living God, it is these that are the true Jews!

God's purpose and plan is that the Jews confess Yeshua as Adonai and gentiles also enter into this same relationship
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Jews refers to the house of Judah and a scattering few families of the other tribes that stayed in Judea after the house of Israel was taken into captivity to never return. Before they were split into the northern territory and the southern territory they were know as Israelites and not by their tribal names. The nation split into the house of Israel and the house of Judah, thus the covenant is to the two houses of Israel as we see in Hebrews 8:6-8

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Paul knew that he was from the tribe of Judah, just as was Jesus, and the blessing passed on to the son of Jacob, Judah, was that the sceptre would never pass from him - king.
The blessing given by Jacob to Ephraim, his grandson and son of his favorite youngest son who redeemed his family from famine, Joseph, was the passing on of the covenant "firsborn" double portion blessing. That they would be "hamon goyim" multitude of nations ( Gentile nations to be exact).
So Ephraim was called Israel just like Jacob was called Israel after striving with the angel and receiving his new name.

Gen. 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Ge 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

So there is much confusion with the term Jew, and Paul tries to give some clarification concerning this, but it didn't work. There is much replacement teology today just because people do not realize that God intends to reunite these two houses of Israel and resore them to the land. This has much if not everything to do with the Church of the firstborn, yet many in the Church do not realize they are the house of Israel that that new covenant is to. It is the house of Judah that still remains in unbelief to Messiah. Israel (Ephraim) to whom Hosea give prophecy to and is quoted by Paul in Romans 9, are those that have forgotten who they are in relation to God. They are the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus said He came to find, and who Hosea said would become "Sons of the Living God".

Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Romans 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God."

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Remember, when Paul spoke of Jews, he was speaking about those who had returned to rebuild the wall and the temple. It was not the house of Israel, but the house of Judah. They had rebuilt but crucified Messiah, having been hardened for the benefit of us all, as Romans 9 tells us, but that it would be temporary. There are many of the house of Judah today who are Messianic Jews, and a remnant of both house will be saved along with the grafted in wild branches. The natural branches that were cut off will be grafted in too, and they all together make up the Ekklesia or Church. Not just one, but all three, so that ALL Israel would be saved - All Israel being bothe houses and the grafted in wild branches, the Church. All are included and none excluded with a proper understanding of the two houses of Israel, as that is who the New Covenant is to.
 
@ Raphe

What scripture tells us we're under the New Covenant?

God Bless!
 
ddubsolo85 said:
@ Raphe

What scripture tells us we're under the New Covenant?

God Bless!

See:

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
1 Cor 11:25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
2 Cor 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Hebrews 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.
Hebrews 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

Also compare Hebrews 8:10 and Jeremiah 31:33.
 
@ Raphe

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
It says with the houses of Israel and Judah, which excludes Gentiles. Also, it doesn't state that we are currently under the New Covenant.

Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
1 Cor 11:25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
You must read the next verse in order to understand what Jesus is saying;

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

The blood has been shed for the covenant, but the covenant is not yet... "active".

2 Cor 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

We are made "ministers";

diakonos {dee-ak'-on-os}
TDNT - 2:88,152 probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, cf 1377)
1) one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

a) the servant of a king

b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink
For Synonyms see entry 5834

The waiter, the servant, isn't the one the meal is made for. This doesn't say that the New Covenant is for us, just that we are to understand and serve it.

Hebrews 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Again, we have the promise made to Jews, not to Gentiles.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Notice that the first covenant is "READY" to vanish, and hasn't gone. At the time of this writing, it was after the death and resurrection of Christ, and after the Pentecost. So when did the first covenant vanish, according to the Bible?

Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

Christ is mediator of the new covenant so those called can receive what is to come- eternal inheritance.

Also, I'm not sure which translation you're using. But the KJV makes it clear in this verse that sin was forgiven by Christ under the first covenant;

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, **for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament**, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

Again we see Jesus as mediator of what is to come.

Also compare Hebrews 8:10 and Jeremiah 31:33.

Again, it is speaking to Jews, not Gentiles.

God Bless!
 
ddubsolo85 said:
Notice that the first covenant is "READY" to vanish, and hasn't gone. At the time of this writing, it was after the death and resurrection of Christ, and after the Pentecost. So when did the first covenant vanish, according to the Bible?

A.D. 70 and the destruction of the Temple as Jesus had prophesied.

As for the rest of your post, are you claiming that Gentiles have nothing to do with the New Covenant? What are you claiming exactly?
 
@ Adams son

A.D. 70 and the destruction of the Temple as Jesus had prophesied.

Are you saying that the New Covenant began with the destruction of the temple? What scripture states this? If not by scripture, what brings you to this conclusion?

Jesus surely prophesied the destruction of the temple, but I don't know how you associate that with the beginning of the New Covenant.

As for the rest of your post, are you claiming that Gentiles have nothing to do with the New Covenant? What are you claiming exactly?

I'm claiming that the New Covenant is exclusively for the Jews, and the Gentiles are not included in terms of being under the New Covenant. It is a promise made to Jews, and Gentiles are excluded from this promise.

However, Gentiles are obviously INCLUDED in salvation. But it is my contention that salvation came under the Old Covenant. Redemption came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15), and Gentiles were grafted into what already existed. The Bible NEVER says that the New Covenant was given to Gentiles, or that the New Covenant is even in force at the moment.

That is my contention.

God Bless!
 
Ddub, where in scripture does it exclude the gentiles or say that we are not under the new covenant? Several letters of Paul teach of how the new covenant came to first the Jews(Christ Ministries) and then the gentiles(the ministries of the apostles). Of Course if you refute the message of the new testament, that is your choice.
 
@ Brutus

Of Course if you refute the message of the new testament, that is your choice.

First, let me state that I don't refute the New Testament. I accept it totally in all of it's fullness wholeheartedly. So if you refute what I say with scripture, I will accept that humbly and with an open heart.

Ddub, where in scripture does it exclude the gentiles or say that we are not under the new covenant?
Whenever the New Covenant is spoken of in terms of who it pertains to, it is always to the Jews, and NEVER to the Gentiles. There are no scriptures that I'm aware of that say the New Covenant is for Gentiles. If you know of any, please list them. But if you look at Jer. 31 and Hbr 8, both are explicitly clear that the NC is for the Jews. Gentiles aren't mentioned, and are summarily excluded.

Also, the Bible states that salvation came under the Old Covenant (Hbr 9:15), and that we are under the Old Covenant (Gal 4:28). What covenant was Isaac under? We are under that same covenant.

Several letters of Paul teach of how the new covenant came to first the Jews(Christ Ministries) and then the gentiles(the ministries of the apostles).

Which letters are you speaking of? I can't find any that say the New Covenant came to the Gentiles. As a matter of fact, I can't find any that say the New Covenant has come (PAST TENSE) at all! What I see scripture saying is that the New Covenant is yet to come.

I realize that what I'm saying will be offensive to many. I don't mean to be offensive. I only want to clarify what the truth is, so that we can all better understand what God is saying to us. I personally don't see the conflict regarding whether we're under the Old or New Covenants. The important and unchanging thing is that salvation has been offered to all under Jesus Christ.

This is what I see in scripture. However, I don't take the position that I can't be wrong. I feel it's a blessing to me when my point of view is challenged. I see it as iron sharpening iron. I look forward to your responses to my position.

God Bless!
 
Its hard to know what you are meaning? But the Everlasting Covenant is nothing new! Hebrews 13:20 It goes into eternity. What is it you are saying, is perhaps it location? Here is what you had said..

[quote:] This is what I see in scripture. However, I don't take the position that I can't be wrong. I feel it's a blessing to me when my point of view is challenged. I see it as iron sharpening iron. I look forward to your responses to my position.
God Bless!


Check 2 Corinthians 3:3 & Hebrews 10:15-16 . Surely one must realize that to be Born Again is a requirement to heaven? John 3:3

Regardless of old testament or new testament. The better Covenant promise was due to one fact that Christ is omnipresent after the cross, & in the O.T. He was not. See Acts 7:38. Yet still, the Holy Spirit was present. See David in Psalms 51:10-11 praying the prayer of 'confession' after Nathan the prophet called him down. And his understanding of the fearful 'sin' that he had committed in Psalms 19:13

---Elijah
 
ddubsolo85 said:
@ Raphe

What scripture tells us we're under the New Covenant?

God Bless!
By comparing these 2 Bible verses, one can se that the New Covenant is to 'Spiritual' Israel....
#1.) Romans 2:29 "But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

#2.)Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
 
@ Elijah

Its hard to know what you are meaning? But the Everlasting Covenant is nothing new! Hebrews 13:20 It goes into eternity. What is it you are saying, is perhaps it location?

I'm saying that the covenant is everlasting. However, there is (or will be) a change from the Old to New Covenants. The difference in the two is the PEOPLE, not the covenant. The PEOPLE will be changed, not the everlasting covenant itself.

Check 2 Corinthians 3:3 & Hebrews 10:15-16 . Surely one must realize that to be Born Again is a requirement to heaven? John 3:3

No doubt about it. But being born again, the redemption if sins, took place under the Old Covenant, not the New. Hbr 10:15-16 is speaking of the calling of the Jews who now don't believe, not to Gentiles.

As far as 2Cor 3:3 is concerned, the tables of stone are the law, NOT the Old Covenant. The Spirit was present in the Old Covenant.

Regardless of old testament or new testament. The better Covenant promise was due to one fact that Christ is omnipresent after the cross, & in the O.T. He was not. See Acts 7:38.
I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that Christ wasn't omnipresent in the OT based upon Acts 7:38. Nor do I see how it is relevant to the discussion. My point is that the redemption of sins, being born again, took place under the Old Covenant.

Yet still, the Holy Spirit was present. See David in Psalms 51:10-11 praying the prayer of 'confession' after Nathan the prophet called him down. And his understanding of the fearful 'sin' that he had committed in Psalms 19:13
I agree with you. I ask how it is that David, or any of the OT prohets, could be saved if they're not under the New Covenant?

God Bless!
 
@ Jay T


What scripture tells us we're under the New Covenant?

God Bless!
By comparing these 2 Bible verses, one can se that the New Covenant is to 'Spiritual' Israel....
#1.) Romans 2:29 "But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
What does this scripture have to do with Gentiles? What it is saying is that being born of Jewish heritage doesn't make one a Jew. Only those "Jews" that accept Christ are what God would consider Jews. NOWHERE in the entire Bible does it say that Gentiles become Jews. Therefore, we have no grounds to make that quantum leap.

#2.)Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
If you notice, this new covenant is to be made with the houses of Israel and Judah. Gentiles are not mentioned. The Bible doesn't mention Gentiles with the New Covenant, so why do we?

God Bless!
 
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