What's new
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

[__ Science __ ] Does fusion at Chromosome 2 indicate divergence from ape-kind?

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
Gene Fusions within Chromosomes are not altogether uncommon. In fact, they are very common among what man has labeled Equids (horses, Zebras, and donkeys). Modern horses we are more familiar with and the Mongolian Wild horse (also called Przewalski's horse) demonstrate such an example. The modern horse exhibits a fusion of genes 23 and 24 as compared to the Mongolian of which they are a separate variation or subspecies.

We have also seen this in varieties of cows and mice, though the offspring of mating the two different varieties are often infertile or produce infertile offspring thereby limiting heritability. This however is not always the case. Some subspecies with fusions can produce fertile offspring with their unfused cousins (in bulls for example, but the offspring are still a variety of cow/bull). Thus there are cases where the fusion is found causing the development of different varieties of cow, or sheep, and so on as well as cases where it is not a factor. In either case however, they do however remain cow or sheep (not becoming a different life-form).

We also see a vast array of fusions in the autosomes and allosomes of Drosophila and other common house flies (each however remaining the same type of organism, i.e., fruit flies remain fruit flies). The Ethiopian narrow-headed rat (Stenocephalemys albipes), the Hazel dormouse (Muscardinus avellanarius), and the New England cottontail (Sylvilagus transitionalis), as well as others, all share 23 pairs of Chromosomes (like modern humans) but are utterly different types of creature and cannot mate at all.

Finally, modern humans (homo-sapien Sapiens) all have 23 pairs of Chromosomes due to a fusion at Chromosome 2. It has been alleged for decades that this was indicative of the relationship between Chimps and Humans and probably occurred in the alleged last common ancestor as Chimps and Humans diverged. However now we KNOW that was not correct and in fact that premise was wrong. People had failed to separate the data we did actually have from the historical narrative that had been attached to interpret the facts through the hypothesis as opposed to letting the data drive the hypothesis,

The fusion at Chromo 2 occurred after humans had already long existed and had nothing to do with ape-kind at all. It turns out that Neanderthals and Denisovans each had 24. Thus Sapien sapiens are a simply different variety of human though still humans. There is nothing to suggest we were or are a newly emerging life-form or that with Chimps we also diverged from an earlier apelike common ancestor, just hypothesis driven speculation . We were all just diffreent varieties of human and remain human to this day.

The problem with this observable reality is that when parties use Chromosome 2 in humans as evidence for human chimp divergence, it is a misnomer created to persuade, by those with a non-demonstrated pre-held belief. The actual observable fact is the Chromosome 2 is indeed a fusion but it happened purely in the human lineage and has absolutely no relationship to anything that happened in chimps or in the elusive never identified presumed earlier ape-kind from which they allegedly diverged. The repeated faith based belief that it happened in some time of divergence allegedly 6.5 mya is an assumption. Nothing more. It is interpreting the facts to support an already presupposed theory (like looking through rose colored glasses). When chimps AND humans both had 24 pairs of chromosomes, chimps were still forever chimps and humans were still forever humans one having nothing to do with the other.

Now this does give to us another issue to consider. If the Sapien-sapien type humans were first, from which all other varieties evolved (the out of Africa theory), then this would imply an un-fusion took place rather than a fusion. IF that theory is correct, then those with a fusion at Chromo 2 evolved into types with no fusion, in other places, at a later time (after they migrated there), and that is scientifically unlikely. It appears more likely from the actual evidence we have, that we can observe and demonstrate, that the earliest humans had no fusion at this site and the OMO humans evolved from them.
 

Michael74

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
4,505
Christian
Yes
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7 NKJV
 

Michael74

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
4,505
Christian
Yes
Consider that combining a donkey (31 pairs of chromosomes) with a horse (32 pairs) to produce a mule doesn't lead to a viable new species. Mules cannot generally reproduce in sufficient numbers to continue the new line. Random fusing of Neanderthal chromosomes in just one Neanderthal would have left the hapless individual with no one to start a family with.

Would it not be simpler (Occam) to just conclude that Adam was created out of the dust of the ground as a new species, along with his wife Eve from Adam's rib? Why postulate Neanderthal creation, followed by random gene splicing of one individual?
 
Last edited:

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
I must admit I was alerted to a recent study that indicated they did find a Chromo 2 fusion in Denisovans (a John Hawkes blog) but cannot find the actual study.
 

Michael74

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
4,505
Christian
Yes
Even so, why postulate that Adam and Eve were created as a Neanderthals, and modern man is a product of a random mutation of one individual Neanderthal? Why such a convoluted explanation, when a far simpler explanation (Occam) is that Adam and Eve were created as modern man?
 

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
Even so, why postulate that Adam and Eve were created as a Neanderthals, and modern man is a product of a random mutation of one individual Neanderthal? Why such a convoluted explanation, when a far simpler explanation (Occam) is that Adam and Eve were created as modern man?
Sounds reasonable to me. Could Cain when banished to the land of Nod (which means the wanderers) have been banished among the Neanderthals?
 

Michael74

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
4,505
Christian
Yes
Neanderthal populations tended to be small, and ate a diet of mainly herbivore animals. By contrast, human diets tended to be varied. This suggests that Neanderthals had lesser intelligence than man, and could not forage for food as well as man.

There is no known empirical way of proving whether or not there were Neanderthals in Nod when Cain was there, but the limited population size of Neanderthal groups suggest that this is unlikely.
 

Barbarian

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Messages
27,106
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
The article is based on a misunderstanding. The fusion doesn't show humans diverged from other apes because of it happened. It merely shows the reason why humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes instead of 24.

And while we don't have intact chromosomes from Denisovans and Neandertals:

A difference in karyotype would likely have reduced the fertility of any offspring of Denisovans and modern humans. We searched all DNA fragments sequenced from the Denisovan individual and identified twelve fragments containing joined repeats. By contrast, reads from several chimpanzees and bonobos failed to yield any such fragments (8). We conclude that Denisovans and modern humans (and presumably Neandertals) shared a karyotype consisting of 46 chromosomes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3617501/
 

Barbarian

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Messages
27,106
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
And now, we have determined that Denesovans did indeed have precisely the same chromosome fusion as we do. It would be pretty hard to imagine otherwise, since they clearly could interbreed with anatomically modern humans.
 

Michael74

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
4,505
Christian
Yes
Its interesting that Neanderthals and Denisovans (helpful mnemonic, named after Denis the hermit's cave) sat around in caves with minimal tools. Modern man built vast civilizations that span the globe, and makes extensive use of tools. I wonder why Neanderthals and Denisovans didn't build vast cities like modern man? Why no gadgets like computers and cell phones?
 

Barbarian

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Messages
27,106
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Its interesting that Neanderthals and Denisovans (helpful mnemonic, named after Denis the hermit's cave) sat around in caves with minimal tools. Modern man built vast civilizations that span the globe, and makes extensive use of tools. I wonder why Neanderthals and Denisovans didn't build vast cities like modern man? Why no gadgets like computers and cell phones?
The interesting thing is that Neandertals (and presumably Denesovans) were remarkably conservative in their culture. Not much changed in weapons and tools over a very long time. There is one known exception, in which a group of Neandertals seem to have copied Cro-magnon tools.

Otherwise, they didn't change much.
 

Michael74

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
4,505
Christian
Yes
Otherwise, they didn't change much.
Suggesting a significant difference between them and modern man.

So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.” Genesis 1:27-28 BSB

Neanderthals didn't subdue the earth, or rule over creatures.
 
Last edited:

Michael74

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
4,505
Christian
Yes
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV

Modern man is more than just a body. Modern man also has a soul and spirit. Components not necessarily traceable via DNA.

Something must account for the dramatic differences.
 
Last edited:

Barbarian

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Messages
27,106
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
It's possible that Neandertals and Denisovans were not descended from Adam and Eve, even though they are the same species as we are. However, I'm thinking it's much more likely that all H. Sapiens are descended from those two.
 

Michael74

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
4,505
Christian
Yes
Interesting, yet Neanderthal genomes are not present in sub Saharan modern human DNA. All Neanderthal descendants would have Neanderthal genomes.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7 NKJV

Could it be that Adam and his progeny are a completely new creation. Created directly by active intervention, not by evolution. Any DNA similarities with other creatures could be explained by the same intelligent designer bio-engineering all species. The artist's signature style. Its just more efficient to use certain DNA combinations.

There is no scientific evidence that evolution can produce a being with a soul and spirit, as well as a body. Unlike all other earth creatures, Adam and his descendants have an immortal soul that will live forever and ever. Active intervention in Adam's creation is suggested by Genesis, and would be consistent with the Biblical and modern record of the Lord actively intervening when modern humans are involved. He walked the garden in the cool of the day, and talked to Adam and Eve. Everything regarding Adam seemed to be personal attention.

The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you. Jeremiah 31:3 NKJV

Adam was a beloved child. Everything that came before was to prepare the earth for Adam and his children. Children made in the image of God. Children with a body, soul and spirit, who could fellowship personally with God forever.

Adam and his children are very different from birds and dinosaurs.
 
Last edited:

Barbarian

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Messages
27,106
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Interesting, yet Neanderthal genomes are not present in sub Saharan modern human DNA. All Neanderthal descendants would have Neanderthal genomes.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7 NKJV

Could it be that Adam and his progeny are a completely new creation. Created directly by active intervention, not by evolution. Any DNA similarities with other creatures could be explained by the same intelligent designer bio-engineering all species. The artist's signature style. Its just more efficient to use certain DNA combinations.
Not likely, since the analysis of Neandertal and Denesovan DNA indicates a common ancestor and a divergence of the three races from archaic H. sapiens. What made humans unique was not our phenotypes or genes, but God directly giving us an immortal soul.

There is no scientific evidence that evolution can produce a being with a soul and spirit, as well as a body.
It' is that supernatural gift that we get immediately from God.
 

2020 Hosting Fee

Total amount
$0.00
Goal
$667.40
Top