Does the human soul consciously exist following death

[Drew]

Drew
Lets start with you. First of all don't take me out of context and don't put words in my mouth. I never said parables plural, I was only speaking of Luke 16.

Scholars have noted that whenever Jesus taught, he provided examples from real-life situations

Note the inconsistency. In your initial statement (the 2nd one above) you clearly state that Jesus always provides examples from real-life situations. This, of course, does not refer only to Luke 16.

 

[Drew]

Scholars have noted that whenever Jesus taught, he provided examples from real-life situations.

If this is true, then presumably the scholars who make such claims can be identified

If you want a list of bible theologians who support my view, I Will need pages, upon pages to name them.

You made a claim that scholars supported the position that parables describe real-life events (not just possible real life events). This would greatly support your postion. Please provide some evidence that there are scholars who specifically hold the view that you ascribe to them.

http://home.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/luke16.htm

No where in the material at your link is your assertion supported. Prove me wrong, I dares ya.

http://www.scripturessay.com/q7.html

The only possible material from this site that could be seen as supporting your view that Jesus always used real-life situations is the following:

There are those would like to discredit the teaching of Jesus here by implying that somehow a parable is not always factual. Can you imagine anyone who believes the Scriptures believing that Jesus would ever misrepresent things simply to teach a truth?

We know this statement is false - Jesus refers to the Pharisees as "snakes". Jesus uses allegory / metaphor - a "misrepresentation" of the factual, literal truth.

Withdrawal of your claim is still in order.

 

[Atonement]

I'm just curious about this topic.. Does any of this bring comfort to the lost? Let's be honest with ourself as Christians??? Not people who believe in different positions; But as Christians, does this bring comfort? The Bible exhausts human language in describing Heaven or Hell. The former is more glorious, and the latter more terrible then language can express.. I'm just curious how far each of you will go before you just give up and say.. What's the point.. It seems some of you are just waiting for the other to just give up their position on Hell.. Regardless of your position on Hell, you, I or NO MAN can describe the true meaning of Hell, it's far beyound our language and our comprehension. But for some reason, 54 verses on Hell can give you total assurance that your correct, and just waiting for the other to fall on their position.. This topic is like a merry-go-round.. It will never stop until someone gives in..

 

[mutzrein]

Comfort for the lost? Christendom, by mis-interpreting the end-result of man, condemns all of mankind to eternal punishment in hell whether they have heard about Jesus and/or the gospel or not. It is a message of fear which says unless you accept Jesus as your saviour you will burn in hell for ever. And so, to escape hell, people are being told, ‘confess your sins, accept Jesus into your heart and you will be born again’. The result of this so-called gospel is a ‘church’ that is full of people who believe they are ‘saved’ because they have gone through a process they think has allowed them to escape the ‘clutches of hell’ and gain access to ‘the kingdom of heaven. This is not the gospel and these people have been conned into believing they are Christians, having been made righteous by a process of intellectual assent that the ‘church’ calls faith.

But what did Jesus say? Unless a man is born again he cannot see or enter the kingdom of heaven. And John says an astounding thing about those who are born of the spirit of God. He says that being born of the Spirit is not of ‘human decision’ but of God.

Now I contend that the gospel can only ever be received by faith – not fear. It is a message of God’s grace that is only received by those to whom God has chosen to give the gift of eternal life through, faith in Christ. This is the gospel of peace. This is good news. How true are the words which say, ‘how beautiful are the feet of him who brings good news . . .’. If we were able to grasp this, then we would begin to understand what the grace of God is.
And then we could never proclaim our own righteousness by saying ‘thankyou God that I am not like those sinners’, whilst condemning them to hell for not being like us. No wonder the world has an abhorrence for these so called self righteous ‘christians’.

You know what would bring comfort to the lost? The knowledge of a God who is righteous in all His ways. He does not condemn to eternal punishment all those who for one reason or another have not received eternal life.

And Jesus did not condemn the lost but he did have a very sobering message for the religious. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

 

[Drew]

Hi Atonement:

I suspect we all agree that hell is something to be avoided.

However, the question of its eternality is indeed important for the sake of the lost. If the lost come to believe that hell is forever, they will understandably not be able to reconcile this with the idea of a loving God. And they may walk away from the Christian faith, seeing it is as internally incoherent.

In addition, when posters make significant claims that they cannot back up, they should be held to account. This is not "fighting", it is responsible debate.

 

[lovely]

Hi atonement,

I can understand your frustration since we have been discussing this topic for a while...we do that with topics sometimes, don't we? Anyway, from a moderator perspective I can understand the frustration, but I agree with the others that it is important to know what will happen if we reject Christ...as I am sure you realize completely. As a moderator, and as someone interested in sharing, and learning, more about the matter I opened a topic that I thought would help us look at the nature of man. I wanted to encourage the discussion, but move it along, if that makes sense.

I knew when I started a similar thread in apologetics that we would be hard pressed to stay on topic, and so I have tried to stay there and sort of move the actual thread along too. I wanted to give Scripture, and even if people disagree, it was presented to provoke thought. The point is, the Truth is being given along with the Word of God, and the division falls where it falls. I am not trying to convince, but present, and allow others to draw their own conclusions with the help of the Holy Spirit...that's what I plan to do because I am far from finished with learning. I am sure everyone feels that way if the love others, and consider what their teaching to be Truth.

I do not mean to get off topic, but I just wanted to respond to this as someone who understands your frustration as a mod with such topics.

Javier, I hope you don't mind, but I will provide the link for the other discussion in apologetics that is related for those who may tend to avoid it, but are interested in this subject. The Lord bless all of you this morning.

 

[lovely]

I forgot the link. :

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 09&start=0

 

[jgredline]

I'm sorry, jg, but are the above accounts you gave intended to support 'our' case on this issue or 'yours' ...? I wouldn't want any of the above people to be representing me in court.

Have you totally ignored the other posts that have presented literature that EXPLAIN quite graphically and precisely what the PARABLE of the Rich Man & Lazarus is all about? That it was all based on a Hebrew fable of the day? How Jesus cleverly wove that fable into a message of truth aimed at the Pharisees? Or are these explanations ignored by the traditionalists because they mess up their favorite passage of scripture that appears to support their 'eternal torment' doctrine?

And what about the Strong's Concordance (that I believe YOU use as 'support' at times) that refers to one definition of the names 'Lazarus' (the poor man) and 'Dives' (the rich man) as being IMAGINARY ...?

Do you refute the expanations previously given ...explanations of the parable as given by Hebrew scholars and historians? Refute them if you must (from an equally knowledgable source) but please don't ignore them.

Sput
Sorry, but this is mearly your opinion which means nothing.
I have used the scriptures in many debates with you and yoh offer opinion.

 

[Solo]

Sput
Sorry, but this is mearly your opinion which means nothing.
I have used the scriptures in many debates with you and yoh offer opinion.

I don't see Sput offer much scripture. It may be difficult for him to understand scripture, so keep him in your prayers.

 

[jgredline]

Note the inconsistency. In your initial statement (the 2nd one above) you clearly state that Jesus always provides examples from real-life situations. This, of course, does not refer only to Luke 16.

Yes that is correct. Why can't you see what I was saying. Jesus used things that people would have understood. Take the Armor of God. What did Paul use for his Illustration. He used a roman soldiers armor. He did not use Ralph the Romans soldier armor. The differance with the Luke 16 account is that he used three names. Lazarus, Moses, and Abraham.
Had it been fiction or a simple parable he would at the least not mentioned Lazuras by name.
One thing about my God is that he is not a God of confusion. He is a God who can be very easy to understand if you have the Holy Spirit. If you don't, then you will not see it. If you don't have the holy spirit you will have a hard time decerning the things of the spirit, such as hell being everlasting.

Spiritual Wisdom

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[jgredline]

I don't see Sput offer much scripture. It may be difficult for him to understand scripture, so keep him in your prayers.

Solo
I believe you are correct. This is true of his posey as well.

 

[jgredline]

I'm just curious about this topic.. Does any of this bring comfort to the lost? Let's be honest with ourself as Christians??? Not people who believe in different positions; But as Christians, does this bring comfort? The Bible exhausts human language in describing Heaven or Hell. The former is more glorious, and the latter more terrible then language can express.. I'm just curious how far each of you will go before you just give up and say.. What's the point.. It seems some of you are just waiting for the other to just give up their position on Hell.. Regardless of your position on Hell, you, I or NO MAN can describe the true meaning of Hell, it's far beyound our language and our comprehension. But for some reason, 54 verses on Hell can give you total assurance that your correct, and just waiting for the other to fall on their position.. This topic is like a merry-go-round.. It will never stop until someone gives in..

Thanks Atone
Your comments are very much appreciated and very much welcomed.
The reason that I believe they ferociously defend their position is simply because of their position in Christ. With out the fear of Hell, their is no fear God. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals truth, Yet they do not see it.

So why do we/I engage in these foolish debates with people who are clearly helped by the powers of Darkness? People who are so set in their ways, that Only be receiving the Holy Spirit will they be able to see. Why?

For those innocent sheep that come through this board seeking truth. When people seek the truth, The Holy Spirit will clear their path and make it straight and give understanding.

1 cor 2:6
Spiritual Wisdom

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


These false teachers here on this board continue to crucify My God, The LORD Jesus Christ..

Why? Because they do not have the Holy Spirit to give guidance and Wisdom.

 

[jgredline]

Javier, I hope you don't mind, but I will provide the link for the other discussion in apologetics that is related for those who may tend to avoid it, but are interested in this subject. The Lord bless all of you this morning.

Lovely
The last I knew there was three or four threads all talking about the same thing at the same time. It would be, might be a good idea to find a way to combine them all. To be honest your comments are most welcome as I have fealt alone in this battle with these fellows who are in denial. I have not been able to spend much time here because I will be a Grandpa any minute now. My Daughter has been in the Hospital since Monday and we spent the weekend prior assembling cribs, changing tables, etc. And prior to that My Wife and I went on a trip to Mexico. I have not been there in a long time. Anyway I am getting of topic here. I will go over to your post sometime today and post some of my stuff from the other thread if could find it.

 

[Atonement]

jgredline, I understand.. I really do... But has this topic brought one person to change their mind? Their position? Their opinion? All you can do is plant a seed and let it go. It's not for us to change a man's heart, that is left for the Holy Spirit to do. I think a seed has been planted, and it's just being trampled on here. That's my opinion and my position. Scripture has been used over and over, and the difference here, they quote the same Scriptures. We all just have different opinions on their meanings.. So who's gonna give in?? Who's gonna be the humble one and just say enough? The truth has been stated, and it's for you to search out the truth, and the others can say the say about us..

However, the question of its eternality is indeed important for the sake of the lost

I think we all agree that there is a punishment for the lost, that has been expressed over and over and over again here and else where. But for it to become an argument about the punishment itself is just a bit ludicrist. Let's agree that there is a punishment, and go after the lost and bring them to the Kingdom of God, so they can escape the punishment (whatever) it may be... Let's be good stewards towards Christ and spread the Gospel of the good news, and not the scare tacked approach. Which by the way, leads very few to the Kingdom of God. It would seem to me that few of you actually witness to people in the outside world, using this approach does very little effect. Being in youth ministry, I can tell you, this approach is actually the worst way to gather a lost person to the Kingdom. Jesus NEVER used this approach in His ministry. Jesus did talk about this topic, but He was only scratching the surface of this topic. Anyway my position has been stated. God Bless each of you, You are all God's Best...

 

[Atonement]

Lovely, I'm not frustrated, I'm sorry if I came off that way. I just don't know what everyone' expectations are in this topic? My expectation for myself, is to become more Christ-like each and everyday, to bring people to the knowledge of the Kingdom of God each and every day.

I'm not frustrated at all, but what is everyone expecting to get out of this?? I'm curious...

 

[guibox]

Perhaps we should go back to the OP.

'Does my 'soul' consciously exist after death'?

So far, nobody has proven that it does. The linguistics of the Bible doesn't support it.

'nephesh'/'psuche' (soul); 'ruach'/'pneuma (spirit) are never used to denote 'the conscious, thinking, breathing, cogitating essence of man' that goes to heaven or hell.

The 'spirit goes back to God who gave it' applies to ALL men and not merely believers.

Luke 16 is the ONLY place that gives the impression of life immediately after death....

HOWEVER...

...were I to take this literally, we see that nowhere is the term 'psuche' or 'pneuma' used here in this passage. This is falsely ASSUMED. Instead we see that they are there in body and not in some spiritual essence.

So nowhere is this a support for an immortal soul

Why their bodies....?

Because they are DEAD (see verse30,31)

Which further proves the WHOLISM of man and that this parable is 'personification' of two dead people to discuss the issues.

 

[Atonement]

No one believe guibox... I have asked this man repeatedly to tell me what program they are using to prove this. I have ran this through three different programs, and my Greek Bible, and guibox is wrong about this Scripture.. Yes 'nephesh' does mean life and yes 'pneuma' does mean spirit but neither one is used here.. The word used is ψυχή, and that is a big difference in their meanings..


guibox, I'm calling you out (sorta speak) prove me wrong.. Again I say, what program are you using?? Share it with us here. I want to cross reference it with my programs and my Greek Bible.. This is all I ask. If I'm wrong, I'm man enough to stand here and say I'm wrong.

 

[guibox]

guibox, I'm calling you out (sorta speak) prove me wrong.. Again I say, what program are you using?? Share it with us here. I want to cross reference it with my programs and my Greek Bible.. This is all I ask. If I'm wrong, I'm man enough to stand here and say I'm wrong.

From Youngs Analytical Concordance of the Bible

soul

OT

nedibah - 'willing, liberal or noble one' - (Job 30:15)
neshamah - 'breath' - (Isaiah 57:16)
nephesh - 'animal soul' - (all other OT texts that use 'soul)

NT

psuche - 'animal soul' (same as nephesh)

Guibox's notes
_______________

The context and understanding of the Hebrews and NT Christians show that 'nephesh/psuche' denote a 'living being' (see Genesis 2:7; 1 Cor 15:45; Acts 2:41)

The 'soul' as the whole man was also attributed to 'function' within the wholistic context of the 'heart', 'mind' and 'emotional part of man. It is imperative to understand that this was n't any part that lived on after death but could only function as body and breath.

 

[CP_Mike]

No one believe guibox... I have asked this man repeatedly to tell me what program they are using to prove this. I have ran this through three different programs, and my Greek Bible, and guibox is wrong about this Scripture.. Yes 'nephesh' does mean life and yes 'pneuma' does mean spirit but neither one is used here.. The word used is ψυχή, and that is a big difference in their meanings..


guibox, I'm calling you out (sorta speak) prove me wrong.. Again I say, what program are you using?? Share it with us here. I want to cross reference it with my programs and my Greek Bible.. This is all I ask. If I'm wrong, I'm man enough to stand here and say I'm wrong.

Nephesh definitions:

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.

Taken from Workshop course notes
[url="http://www.workshop.org.uk/"]http://www.workshop.org.uk/[/url]

 

[lovely]

Hi atonement,

For me, the discussion provokes me to thought, and sometimes helps me dig deeper on a topic...and I think we can all agree there is much hidden treasure in the Word. Also, I am wrong very much, and my brothers and sisters here may be able to correct, sharpen, or even rebuke me with the Word of God. I am thankful if God allows that. The Truth of Scripture is offered, and people are studying on a more in depth level, and perhaps some...even if they are reading...are being corrected with the Word. I also find it very important to the Gospel.

Also, I apologize for reading you as frustrated...because I can be sometimes in these endless discussions...and I was projecting that on your post, please forgive me.

Javier,

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

The Lord bless all of you.