ELECTION.......IN CHRIST

[Eventide]

Many people today are being taught that THEY are the ELECT OF GOD.. and this shouldn't be too surprising because the scriptures do speak of those who are saved as being the ELECT..

This would be fine if that's all the revelation we had so to speak.. but we have much more revelation concerning who the elect (is) and why...

We know for a fact that ALL MEN IN ADAM are under the same condemnation.. imo the bible couldn't be more clear on this fact..

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So much for limited atonement.. but that's another topic..

Romans 5:18 makes it clear that by Adam's offence, judgment has come upon all men to condemnation. That's what the bible says. It also clearly says that by the righteousness of one (Christ, the Last Adam) that the free gift has come upon all men to justification of life.

Important biblical term there.. JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE..

NOW.. we know that all men are condemned in Adam.. and the bible affirms this by saying that if we don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that we're condemned already.. the LORD also says that if any man comes after Him, that he must DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow HIM..

So when any person in Adam places his or her faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and God seals them with the Holy Spirit of promise.. whose life is now justified in them..? is it their old way of life, or is it the life of Christ in them that is justified..

The bible makes this clear.. because Paul tells us to PUT OFF the OLD MAN who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to put on the NEW MAN who is created in righteousness and true holiness..

The OLD MAN is us in our Adamic nature.. the NEW MAN is Christ in us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That in itself should be enough.. but wait, there's more..

Paul tells the Colossian believers that they should set their affections on the things above, and not on the things on earth.. because YOU ARE DEAD and your life is hid IN CHRIST with God.. and that when He appears (Who is our LIFE), that we should appear with Him..

Paul also writes that I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me..

Starting to see the picture here..

We are not the elect of God, the Lord Jesus Christ is.. and Matthew 12 teaches us exactly that.. that HE is the one in whom the Father delights.. not us.. we're told that if we shall seek to save our life that we shall lose it..

The only reason why the saved are referred to as the ELECT in scripture is because they are IN CHRIST.. even members of HIS BODY, we are HIS flesh and bone according to scripture.

This is why UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION is so far off.. because firstly, the scriptures tell us exactly why God has chosen us to salvation.. by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.. that's conditional.. and God made the conditions.. we had absolutely no choice in that matter. Where we do have a choice is in trusting in Christ alone for the forgiveness of our sins, and then God knowing the heart.. seals that faith by birthing Christ in us.. our hope of glory.

And if that doesn't happen.. then we remain condemned already.

It should become clear that you and I (nor any man in Adam) is the elect of God.. but rather that the Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God, and Him alone.

 

[Eventide]

I typicall see that men like to talk about ELECTION all day long when it is centered upon themselves being the elect, or chosen of God.. although not so much when it's all centered upon Christ alone being the chosen one of God.

When the biblical doctrine of election is centered soley upon the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, all this other talk about men being the elect ceases and Christ alone is glorified in it.. although when it's the other way around, Christ is typically not even mentioned.

 

[Eventide]

Here's scripture which clearly teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is the chosen one of God.. it comes from Isaiah 42..

Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

 

[Vic C.]

I believe this topic ran it's course the last time you posted it.

Why not just bump up the first thread?

 

[Eventide]

I think that you or one of the mods closed it..

It is way more popular to talk about condemned men being the elect than it is to talk about Christ being the elect.

 

[childeye]

Eventide, what do you suppose God means when He says chosen pertaining to the Christ? Was he randomly picked? Was he chosen unconditionally? Why is this servant known as Jesus elect?

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, what do you suppose God means when He says chosen pertaining to the Christ?

What are you referring to here.. what scripture(s) are you speaking of ?

Was he randomly picked?

Was who randomly picked ?

Was he chosen unconditionally?

Was who chosen unconditionally.. ?

Why is this servant known as Jesus elect?

Elect means chosen.. right ?

No comments on any of my comments ? Do you agree with what I have written..? Disagree ? Why or why not ?

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;567483]What are you referring to here.. what scripture(s) are you speaking of ?

the scriptures in post 3.

Elect means chosen.. right ?

You tell me

No comments on any of my comments ? Do you agree with what I have written..? Disagree ? Why or why not ?

You and I have a propensity to disconnect regarding terms and there applications. I hesitate to answer what I think lest you take me wrong or I take you wrong and I have to explain myself, which I find tedious. I don't blame you but rather the inadequacy of human vocal utterances expressed in scripted symbols. I would say I agree with the gist of what you say if I am correctly perceiving you, but I think your applications of terms and in the contexts of how you use them compared to Calvinists may be different.

 

[Eventide]

I would say I agree with the gist of what you say if I am correctly perceiving you, but I think your applications of terms and in the contexts of how you use them compared to Calvinists may be different.

So you agree with everything in the OP..

As for Calvinism.. you already told me that you don't understand it, so no point in going there.

 

[childeye]

So you agree with everything in the OP..

As for Calvinism.. you already told me that you don't understand it, so no point in going there.

I'm not sure what you mean by we are not the elect, Jesus is. The problem is you point out correctly that scripture says we are elect then say we are not the elect.

 

[Eventide]

I'm not sure what you mean by we are not the elect, Jesus is.

Exactly what it says.. we are not the elect, the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect, or chosen of God. The only reason that any person is referred to as the elect in scripture is because they are IN CHRIST, the one who IS the elect..

Make sense.. ?

There's a world of difference between the statements.. "I am the elect of God" and "I am the elect of God IN CHRIST".. do you see that ?

The problem is you point out correctly that scripture says we are elect then say we are not the elect.

It becomes obvious when we ask ourselves.. WHY am I the elect of God... is it because God unconditionally decided that I'd be saved.. or is it because I placed my trust in Him for the forgiveness of sins and was placed into CHRIST by the power of the Holy Spirit.. ? ?

IMO, the first one is painfully unbiblical, and the second one completely biblical.

 

[Eventide]

Another way to look at this..

God didn't choose Christ AND me.. He chose Christ in me..

All are condemned in Adam.. that's our natural state.. all justified freely in Christ, the last Adam.. and again, even AFTER we're saved, it's not my old nature that is justified.. it remains condemned.. it's the life of CHRIST in me that is justified.

 

[childeye]

Exactly what it says.. we are not the elect, the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect, or chosen of God. The only reason that any person is referred to as the elect in scripture is because they are IN CHRIST, the one who IS the elect..

Make sense.. ?

It makes perfect sense that we are elect if we are in Christ and certainly Christ is elect. In all honesty I see no difference between what you say here and what you say the Calvinists say.

There's a world of difference between the statements.. "I am the elect of God" and "I am the elect of God IN CHRIST".. do you see that ?

Not if you mean the same thing. This is semantics.

It becomes obvious when we ask ourselves.. WHY am I the elect of God... is it because God unconditionally decided that I'd be saved.. or is it because I placed my trust in Him for the forgiveness of sins and was placed into CHRIST by the power of the Holy Spirit.. ? ?

So what if I said it this way... because He chose me before the foundation of the world to reveal Himself through Christ so I would put my trust in him for the forgiveness of sins and was placed into CHRIST by the Holy Spirit so that I would never take glory and boast of my station in Christ as if I did it through my own works.

 

[childeye]

Another way to look at this..

God didn't choose Christ AND me.. He chose Christ in me..

All are condemned in Adam.. that's our natural state.. all justified freely in Christ, the last Adam.. and again, even AFTER we're saved, it's not my old nature that is justified.. it remains condemned.. it's the life of CHRIST in me that is justified.

This actually is better said with one remark. Who came first the Word of God or man? So as to say, He chose me in Christ for Christ as the Word existed before man. Keeping in mind that to God He declared the end form the beginning and all is already come to pass, it would be better said Abide in me and I will abide in you. But I think your point is more to say we die and Christ lives which is the same as saying the carnal mind dissolves and the spiritual mind takes over.

 

[ivdavid]

It becomes obvious when we ask ourselves.. WHY am I the elect of God... is it because God unconditionally decided that I'd be saved.. or is it because I placed my trust in Him for the forgiveness of sins and was placed into CHRIST by the power of the Holy Spirit.. ? ?

This is a precise question. And I think childeye has meshed your two mutually exclusive cases into one unified sequential whole.

And I think Vic C. is right - this topic did run its course. I think this is where we each stand as of now -
I have always held on to the truth that we ought to place our trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and then we will be sealed in Him by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I only go further and ask how one places such trust in Christ in the first place - is it in our flesh that we are expected to do this out of some inherent goodness present in us, or do we place such trust in Christ because it is given of God's mercy and compassion and not of ourselves at all ?

This is where I think we end every time we start discussing this - so you might want to give this question some thought if you want to progress in this discussion.

 

[Eventide]

So what if I said it this way... because He chose me before the foundation of the world

Then you'd be wrong imo.. He didn't choose you before the foundation of the world.. He chose you IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.. just as He chose EVERYTHING IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world, because He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Eventide]

This is a precise question. And I think childeye has meshed your two mutually exclusive cases into one unified sequential whole.

really.. how so.. ?

And I think Vic C. is right - this topic did run its course.

Well of course you would agree with someone who is a Calvinist.. big surprise there.. I went back and looked and he's the one who closed the thread for no apparent reason.. no reason given to me etc.. it's probably simply because he's a calvinist doesn't like it when unconditional election gets proven wrong over and over again.. lol

I think this is where we each stand as of now -
I have always held on to the truth that we ought to place our trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and then we will be sealed in Him by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I only go further and ask how one places such trust in Christ in the first place - is it in our flesh that we are expected to do this out of some inherent goodness present in us, or do we place such trust in Christ because it is given of God's mercy and compassion and not of ourselves at all ?

The GOSPEL is what makes any person trust in Christ.. not because God unconditionally allowed you to believe it one day.

This is where I think we end every time we start discussing this - so you might want to give this question some thought if you want to progress in this discussion.

Last time I conversed with you I found that you didn't think that it was special for God to undconditionally save you while sending others to hell..

 

[ivdavid]

And I think Vic C. is right - this topic did run its course.

Well of course you would agree with someone who is a Calvinist.. big surprise there..

What is calvinistic about the statement that Vic C. made that I should have obviously agreed with him? And why is it obvious that I must agree with every calvinist on everything? Aren't you being prejudiced unnecessarily? Let's deal with objective premises and accompanying inferences instead of personalities and subjective biases.

I take it that you were addressing Vic C. when you were referring to that previous thread.

The GOSPEL is what makes any person trust in Christ..

We've been here too....
Trace the discussion from post#140 here till the reply in post#194 -
eventide - "What's the point in talking about non scriptural Mr A and Mr B all the while knowing that you can't even think outside of the confines of TULIP ? What's the point in that.. do you want to embrace the unbiblical doctrines of Calvin as presented in TULIP ?"
What's the point? What's the point in discussing what's true and what's not and what's the point in discussing the reasons for them. And what's the point especially in an apologetics forum?
A question has been raised here for you to consider honestly - not for my sake, no not at all - but for truth's sake.

This is where I think we end every time we start discussing this - so you might want to give this question some thought if you want to progress in this discussion.

Last time I conversed with you I found that you didn't think that it was special for God to undconditionally save you while sending others to hell..

I'm glad you found out that I didn't think of the believers as special in any way when God elects whom He wills.
But I haven't found out what you believe w.r.t. my question - at least not explicitly. And that's where the discussion stalls. You should analyze what makes you so hesitant to give a direct reply. It's that reason that makes me reject that worldview - is that fair enough?

 

[Eventide]

What is calvinistic about the statement that Vic C. made that I should have obviously agreed with him? And why is it obvious that I must agree with every calvinist on everything? Aren't you being prejudiced unnecessarily? Let's deal with objective premises and accompanying inferences instead of personalities and subjective biases.

Let's deal with the OP.. you come into the thread without one single comment concerning what I write.. and conclude that it's already settled ? ?

Nice work.. typical imo..

We've been here too....

Yes, you believe that God allowed you to believe because you've been taught that you're the elect and that He only enables and saves the elect..

Right.. there's nothing special about God saving you based upon absolutely nothing that you do while sending many to hell for all eternity.. that's just the way it is right.. and that's Calvinism in a nut shell.

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps you (or anyone) can go through the OP and comment on how it is either biblically correct or incorrect.. rather than coming in and making blanket statements without a shred of support.