End Times According to Matthew 24 and 25 Part 1

[Jim Parker]

Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place refers to an intact Temple, complete with a holy place.

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:15

It is in Daniel that we find understanding.

The city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD, which is found in verse 26.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26

The Romans destroyed the city and temple in 70 AD.

The Abomination of Desolation doesn’t occur until verse 27 and has Temple activities involved, which indicates a restored Temple with sacrifices.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
Daniel 9:27

It is the prince who is to come that will confirm a covenant with many for one week.
This refers to the 70th week.
During that time the temple will be rebuilt.
This is what Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse.
JLB

So the Romans going into the holy place and taking the contents to Rome could fit.
And if Titus actually did erect a statue to himself in the temple that would fit.
As I said, it could happen more than once. 70AD being a type of things to come.

Daniel's prophesy is vague enough that I would not endorse any specific interpretation of it.

 

[Northman]

The city was leveled. That is desolation.

Sorry I meant and am meaning just the statue part. I'm really not in the same league as the rest of you guys when it comes to this prophecy stuff. Contribution limited to historical facts and couldn't put together an end times theory to save my life.

 

[JohnDB]

Mount of Olives is a short hike (mostly up and down...I did it but don't recommend it unless you got sneakers with good grip)

I did the Hinnom valley side to Hezekiah's tunnel which is even steeper...those stones are really polished these days. It will make you wanna cry if you try do it in 5 minutes in that heat.(like I did)..it's like a slippery ladder in slope.

But more to the point...

In 66 AD Herod erected several plaques with Caesar's face all over Jerusalem and had a Bronze Roman Eagle installed over the most used gate into the Temple complex. (Drawing a blank on the name) but a group of guys cut it down. Their punishment inciting a riot (execution) which called for more Roman troops which escalated the riot and caused the Jews to hold up in the Temple and ultimately all of Jerusalem when the Roman's pulled back for the riot.
Basically Jerusalem became under Roman siege for 3&1/2 years...which culminated in the Temple's destruction in 70 AD.

The Temple had stores of food, wood, and gold. Some of the Gold had been forcebly removed and stolen by Rome early in 66 AD (adding to the discontent)

 

[JLB]

Is the Holy Place still the Holy Place after Jesus?
Everything in the tabernacle and then the temple pointed to Jesus.
And, after the sending of the Holy Spirit, the Church became the Holy Place.
So the high priest was just going into an empty room once a year.

What was the name of this empty room the priest was going to one a year?


JLB

 

[JLB]

So the Romans going into the holy place and taking the contents to Rome could fit.
And if Titus actually did erect a statue to himself in the temple that would fit.
As I said, it could happen more than once. 70AD being a type of things to come.

Daniel's prophesy is vague enough that I would not endorse any specific interpretation of it.

The point I am making is, the holy place was defiled many times before and after Jesus.


The one Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24 came after the events of 70 AD and during the 70th week of Daniel and is associated with a time marker at the end of the age just before Christ returns.


This particular person is personally destroyed by Christ Himself by the brightness of His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


destroy with the brightness of His coming.


So to understand what Jesus was teaching in the Olivet Discourse at this AOD, all we have to ask ourselves is this:


Did Jesus come and destroy Titus in 70 AD.


No He didn’t.


Titus returned to Rome as a conquering hero and went on to become Emporer of Rome.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

couldn't put together an end times theory to save my life.

Me either

 

[Jim Parker]

What was the name of this empty room the priest was going to one a year?


JLB

metaphor - the Presence had gone.
Just furniture left.

 

[Jim Parker]

The one Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24 came after the events of 70 AD and during the 70th week of Daniel and is associated with a time marker at the end of the age just before Christ returns.

Yes. That's one view.

Another view is that the 70 weeks ended on Palm Sunday when the Messiah entered Jerusalem.

And I'm sure there are many other views.

That's the problem with trying to base doctrine on apocalyptic literature. It's like sewing a button on a poached egg.

 

[JohnDB]

Yes. That's one view.

Another view is that the 70 weeks ended on Palm Sunday when the Messiah entered Jerusalem.

And I'm sure there are many other views.

That's the problem with trying to base doctrine on apocalyptic literature. It's like sewing a button on a poached egg.

Actually...
There is a pattern to this.
Now even though Daniel and many other prophets all gave huge signs and actually dates to decipher when Jesus would arrive... everyone absolutely missed it. (Especially the religious elite who taught the masses) The Magi were the only ones who "got it".
Then when proving himself to be the Messiah they again dismissed Jesus' proofs...

And the question is WHY?

The book of Acts reveals to us that there were two false messiahs before Jesus and the history book of Josephus tells of a few more. All these were failed messiahs but truly more successful than Jesus in numbers and finances. But just about everyone in Israel had heard about Jesus.

So how do we expect to do something different with end times theologies which are definitely encoded so deeply that the truth is almost impossible to determine when Jesus' arrival was very clear with very unmistakable signs and wonders.

 

[JLB]

Another view is that the 70 weeks ended on Palm Sunday when the Messiah entered Jerusalem.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; Daniel 9:25

• Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

The 69th week ended on Palm Sunday.


The city of Jerusalem came out and cried out, Hosanna to the son of David.

When the Pharisee’s complained, Jesus said:

“I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”
Luke 19:40


Nothing was going to keep that prophecy from coming to pass.


The 70th week occurs after the events of 70 AD.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The 70th week occurs after the events of 70 AD.

Why?

 

[JLB]

Why?

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26

Two significant events of the first century are mentioned here by Daniel, in verse 26.

They both occur after the 69 weeks and take place before the 70th week begins as mentioned in verse 27.

• Messiah was cut off. 28-33 AD
• The city and sanctuary destroyed. 70 AD

These two events are not within the 70 weeks time frame.

The 69 th week ended at Messiah the Prince which was “Palm Sunday”, in which after that Messiah was cut off. 5 Days after Palm Sunday, Messiah was crucified.


And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;


The 70th week doesn’t begin until the prince who is to come, confirms a covenant with many for one week. The last week.
The 70th week.


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:27

This 70th week is associated with Temple activities.

• He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

The Temple and city was destroyed in 70 AD.


Verse 27 and the 70th week can only refer to a rebuilt Temple.


The one they are planning to build very soon.


https://www.templeinstitute.org/


JLB

 

[New Day Coming]

OK, we're drifting from the OP which is End Times According to Matthew 24 and 25.
There's no beast in Matthew.

jus sayin

Big picture question - should we assume that Matthew 24 and 25 was the last word (Biblically speaking) on the subject?

The reason why I ask is it ties into the question of when the Church was revealed. As the "Church" was still a mystery during the Olivet discourse, might we be looking into the wrong place to find out where we "fit in" if we take these chapters in exclusion?

 

[JLB]

Big picture question - should we assume that Matthew 24 and 25 was the last word (Biblically speaking) on the subject?

The reason why I ask is it ties into the question of when the Church was revealed. As the "Church" was still a mystery during the Olivet discourse, might we be looking into the wrong place to find out where we "fit in" if we take these chapters in exclusion?

Please share your scripture that teaches the Church was not yet revealed during the Olivet Discourse.




JLB

 

[New Day Coming]

Please share your scripture that teaches the Church was not yet revealed during the Olivet Discourse.




JLB

As I understand it, the Church was revealed at Pentecost.

 

[JLB]

As I understand it, the Church was revealed at Pentecost.

The Ecclesia, The called out ones, the holy nation, the congregation, the Church began with Abraham.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:38 KJV



The Lord made Covenant with Abraham, before He became flesh.


The New Covenant is the renewed or refresshed Abrahamic Covenant, that we are grafted into through faith in Christ.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9


again


that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3;14


New in the phrase New Covenant is kainos, which is new as in quality rather than new as in different.


Because we are part of the new [kainos] covenant we are a new [kainos] creation.


We are not a different species, but still human, having a spirit, soul and body, but we have a quality now that we did not have before: The Spirit of Eternal Life in Christ.


Anyway, there is much more, and this is not the right thread to discuss as we would totally derail this person's thread.


If you want to discuss more, then please start a thread about this, or pm me.


If you don't believe what I'm telling you then that's ok too, just ignore me.



Thanks JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Big picture question - should we assume that Matthew 24 and 25 was the last word (Biblically speaking) on the subject?

The reason why I ask is it ties into the question of when the Church was revealed. As the "Church" was still a mystery during the Olivet discourse, might we be looking into the wrong place to find out where we "fit in" if we take these chapters in exclusion?

The disciples asked Jesus three questions.
1. When will the temple be destroyed? (Not one stone left upon another)
2. What will be the sign of your coming?
3. What will be the sign of the end of the age?

Those questions have nothing to do with the Church so I don't think anything Jesus said in response would give us any clue about where we fit in.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

We are not a different species, but still human, having a spirit, soul and body, but we have a quality now that we did not have before: The Spirit of Eternal Life in Christ.

I would say we are indeed a new species.
We are a new species of God-bearing human beings.
As Jesus was God in flesh we have God in our flesh.
2Co 5:17a Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; (κτίσις; "creature")
We are new creatures who bear the Godhead within and who have eternal life.
Those who are not believers do not have the Godhead within and are already dead in their sins.

Just another way to look at it.

BUt, we digress.

 

[jasonc]

Sorry I thought that was in response to what was said about Titus putting a statue of himself at the temple, which isn't mentioned as something that happened in those links you gave. It doesn't matter to me too much what people what to call the desolation, but when the desolation is described and it is something that didn't happen, then things get weird. A flag is not a statue.

the original aod was a statue. romans didn't worship a statue of the the emperor as they had no temples to go to they used his image on a flag. its the same thing , when Pompeii entered into the temple (the second one, not Herod's temple) he desecrated it as he being uncircumcised entered into the Holy Of Holies.

It had to be cleansed. It doesn't take much to profane/ pollute in those days.

while I can see Jim's point, I will say this. for the temple to be made desolate again. It must be HOLY once again to GOD. I cant see that ever happening again as that would negate what Jesus said about the new way to Worship which was in Spirit and not in need of a temple to met with God. without getting into the sages and what Jews say about praying from the places you are and also how God can be there with you outside of the temple .

 

[jasonc]

Mount of Olives is a short hike (mostly up and down...I did it but don't recommend it unless you got sneakers with good grip)

I did the Hinnom valley side to Hezekiah's tunnel which is even steeper...those stones are really polished these days. It will make you wanna cry if you try do it in 5 minutes in that heat.(like I did)..it's like a slippery ladder in slope.

But more to the point...

In 66 AD Herod erected several plaques with Caesar's face all over Jerusalem and had a Bronze Roman Eagle installed over the most used gate into the Temple complex. (Drawing a blank on the name) but a group of guys cut it down. Their punishment inciting a riot (execution) which called for more Roman troops which escalated the riot and caused the Jews to hold up in the Temple and ultimately all of Jerusalem when the Roman's pulled back for the riot.
Basically Jerusalem became under Roman siege for 3&1/2 years...which culminated in the Temple's destruction in 70 AD.

The Temple had stores of food, wood, and gold. Some of the Gold had been forcebly removed and stolen by Rome early in 66 AD (adding to the discontent)

jonathan Hyrcanus lead that revolt. we also forget the bar khoba revolt which had the romans for a time running in fear and they took back Jerusalem for a time.